Dune University 3

Jester Fool

Emperor
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
1,181
Location
Katy, TX
Paul Muad'Dib deserves better than the poor game I played in DU 2. He is actually one of the better leaders IMO. The game plan will still be the same - religious war followed by a terraforming victory. The only changes are that I am using the 1.9.5 patch and that I will play Standard speed (which is what I play in most of my games) instead of Epic speed. Maybe after playing a few more games offline (to get the timing down), I might revisit Epic speed - for now I will leave that to people who normally play Epic speed. (Hint, hint - I would love for Ahriman or Chris to post an Epic speed game - either would school (the Fool) for sure. Just sayin'. :))

The start :
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The Settings :
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The save if reader's want to give it a shot View attachment AutoSave_Initial_AG-10191.CivBeyondSwordSave

I promise to finish the game this time (and have already played well for 124 turns so far). :king:
 
turnset 1; part 1 (~turn 60) :
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I could have settled 1W (to get the third groundwater resource in the BFC of the capital) but actually gain 1 water overall (34 compared to 33) settling where I did. Also, growth will be higher short term since I can already build dew collectors (and would need some time to research Water Transportation to even build shallow wells).
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Hey Vladimir. The Baron is a warmonger - early, mid and late game. He immediately gets added to the top of the early war targets list (assuming he is close enough).
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I don't adopt Shai-Halud since I plan on adopting Mahdi (and then Qizarate if I am able to found it). Any Great Prophets I receive will join the capital. However, I will build Dune Messiah and Temple of Alia (as long as I found the religions of course) when that time comes. The worker will improve the creosote bush and then the barrel cactus right away - I don't want to have the health problems I did the last time playing the Fremen. I am building The Stone of Prophecy while growing to the health cap (soon to be 4:health:) and the research path will be Exploration->Water Conservation->Defense Tactics.
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Well met sand trout skin dude. Him and the Baron won't have the best of relations (each gets a -2 diplo penalty towards the other) so I should be able to take advantage of that.
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Time to build a barracks->infantry (x3)->settlers. Research will go Fanaticism followed by Divine Mandate.
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Rhombur is probably going to be the main threat to our terraforming plans. He expands well, techs well and (in most of my games) fields a dangerous army by mid game. More than once, I have been the victim of an Ixian sneak attack (no red fist prior to declaring war) so I will definitely keep a wary eye on him. Really, he is one of my favorite AIs to play against (as he usually poses a nice challenge).
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Spawn busters are in position and one settler is on the way to settle the next Fremen city. I will soon have three cities so I am expanding about right compared to the AIs (with the goal of keeping science output high mind you). I want to make sure that Mahdi get founded by the Fremen, but after that I will need to get the spice tiles improved ASAP to be able to expand further (so Spice Extraction becomes a priority).
 
I agree that you chose the best start tile, this is better than 1W.
The Baron is fairly aggressive, but much less so than Beast Rabban or Feyd, he is more of a backstabber and is pro-espionage, rather than a purely aggressive militarist.

It is well worth making Leto II a longterm ally; give him lots of stuff, he will probably go terraforming too, and can be a good trading partner.
 
he will probably go terraforming too, and can be a good trading partner.
I hope adopting Mahdi doesn't cause too much of a diplo hit with him because you are right, good relations with Leto is a smart move here. I may even consider spreading Qizarate to him (assuming I found the religion) so that we can share a religion (I wouldn't want to depend on auto spread of Mahdi).
 
Just a rant - read at your own risk.
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Hahahaha. Played till turn 227. My score is 168K and counting. Terraforming under way and it is just a matter of time before I win.

Now for the part I want to discuss. Would I be correct stating that the assumption is that "no tech brokering" helps the AIs? NO IT DOESN'T!! Actually the opposite is true - it impedes the ability of the AIs to keep up (since they can't trade the tech they received in a trade to the other AIs). The proof is always in the pudding so to speak. You will see exactly what I mean as I post the unfolding story of the Fremen victory.

My second point is - do NOT change the default to "no tech brokering" UNLESS you want the mod to be easy. I am a fairly good player, yes, but "no tech brokering" really hampers the AI - no doubt about it.
 
I'll be interested to see what you mean. The fact that you did really well in a game can be a part of a lot of factors, including that you had a very nice start position, and that Fremen sandriders are very powerful (and Fremen can do very very well with a focused tech-path ignoring a lot of stuff) and that Zealots are *nasty*.

Regardless though, I don't turn on no tech brokering mainly to help the AIs (to do that, I usually turn up the difficulty), I turn on no tech brokering because I don't like tech-trading to be the main form of technological advancement, and because too much tech-trading just feels lame and makes the game go to fast.

No tech brokering certainly helps less diplomatic factions like Tleilaxu and Fremen, but it tends to hurt factions like Ordos (who will tech-whore like crazy with full tech trading available) and the spice economy bloc, who tend to have decent relations with each other and so trade a lot when full tech trading is available.
 
Well, I'm not sure I've ever played a tech brokering game in Civ4 (I think I did play one or two RevDCM tech brokering games a LONG time ago), but I can see how it's 'fairness' to the AI is very dependent on how quick of a start the player gets. If you manage to maneuver your way into a solid tech lead and are the first to discover most techs, then the AI has few trading options while you have many.
 
Is there some particular reason you do not fully explore the immediate area to the east? I always like to see what's over the next hill if at all possible and pillage those ag stations...
 
Is there some particular reason you do not fully explore the immediate area to the east?
I just lack extra units at this time. If I hadn't built the SoP, I would have had at least another 2-3 units scouting around. I do scout east eventually though.
 
turnset 1; part 2 (~turn 110) :
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Hello Margot. Can we all just get along? Maybe...until I start terraforming. We'll see though. I won't start terraforming until I have a few vassals and can defend against the remaining AIs. Timing is everything.
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I am first to Divine Mandate and found the Mahdi religion. Dune Messiah is built using the free Great Prophet I receive from the religious trait. If left unchecked, House Corrino will be a gigantic threat to any terraforming plans. Note to self - vassal Princess Irulan ASAP (although House Harkonnen gets it first).
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The Fremen switch to Theocracy for the coming Holy war. Research path will be Mining->Spice Extraction->Arrakis Habitation->Stillsuits->Education->Law of Arrakis. I will make the first attack on House Harkonnen once Law of Arrakis has been researched.
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Snapshot on turn 96. I am expanding nicely when compared to the AIs. Imperial gets founded this turn (no idea on where though - could be Ix, maybe Harkonnen, really all of the ingame AIs go Feudalism early). Atypically, Ix has only 3 cities - they must have a low commerce start.
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Sorry. Not much going on. Still, this is how the game is progressing.
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I can't pass up this trade so I switch research to Desert Trade. Hopefully, I can trade Spice Extraction for Desert Trade 1:1.
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Well worth it. Thank you Princess!! Research is switched back to Law of Arrakis (which finishes in 7 turns). I really like my progress so far. The war with Baron Harkonnen is emminent.
 
turnset 1; part 3 (~turn 124) :
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Turn 112 Choam is founded somewhere. I go ahead and trade Education to Princess Irulan for Feudalism (since it opens up key economic techs). After researching Law of Arrakis, Culture of Dune (for the free Great Nobleman) is the next tech that I will research. Mahdi zealots are being built in preparation for war with House Harkonnen. Since master guardsman will start showing up soon as defenders, I have decided to get hardened bladesman (to complement the Mahdi zealots I am building now) before commencing the war.
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Assuming I am first to Culture of Dune (pretty much guaranteed - nobody has Law of Arrakis yet), I will be able to bulb Human Potential. In effect, I will get a good trade chip as well as a very valuable technology for roughly the same research time as one tech. With no tech brokering on, the benefits of being first to a technology are magnified. Huge tech lead, here I come.
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I give Baron Harkonnen Mysticism. :lol: Not ready for war just yet so a 10 turn forced peace treaty is of no concern. More important than the Baron's demand is that I have my units rallying to Coanua. Of course, my Mahdi zealot *had* to move into the desert right next to a sandworm on the previous turn. Luckily, I hadn't promoted him yet so after an emergency promotion to desert warfare II, I survived - that's one lucky dude. :D Note to self - pay attention son..pay attention.
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Princess Irulan wants me to give her Law of Arrakis but I decline. Sorry babe but I am building Propaganda Corps in my capital so no can do. Tribunals are going up and once I finish researching Harsh Conditioning, hardened bladesman will be added to the invasion force that is already in Coanua. The Fremen are first to Culture of Dune (no surprises there) and the bulb for Human Potential is made. Even though I am pursuing a terraforming victory, improving spice tiles will still be a priority this game. Normally, I don't emphasize building spice purifiers, but in this game I think I will need to (obviously to make up for the loss of spice once terraforming spreads).


View attachment du3-endturnset1.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
turnset 2; part 1 (~turn 149) :
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Once Harsh Conditioning has been researched, tech path will be Mental Discipline->Energy Sources->Desert Engineering->Spice Industry->Offworld Trade->Solaris Economy.
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The good Baron decides to war against the Atreides. He will be quite surprised when I declare on him. Until then, I have a Mahdi zealot farming xp at the smuggler city of Nagirah Basin.
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No one has Mental Discipline yet so it should not be a problem to build Cogitor Philosopher before any of the AIs. Once built, Academies will be the free tech selected.
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The invasion force is ready. Sorry Baron, Desert Plantation won't save you. :lol:
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The last two attacks were a CR2 hardened bladesman (@ 98.84% odds) and a CR2 Mahdi zealot (@ 68.11% odds). Not sure if the order of attacks was optimal but the city falls nonetheless. I didn't build the Collected Teachings but the 114 fail gold is still nice.
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Some trades : turn 143 - Human Potential to Margot Fenring for Desert Engineering and Dune Topography; turn 148 - Human Potential to Leto II for Great Houses.
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I don't have enough troops to take Carthag. I do have winning odds but I decide to take a peace treaty to get Protected Trade - a very good deal. I am still building military forces so once the peace treaty expires, the war against the Harkonnens will begin again.
 
Continuing after a HOMM3 break (h/t TheMeInTeam for his HOMM3 vids - now playing Armageddon's Blade ;)). Noticed that the 1.9.6 patch is out so although this DU is now out of date, I still want to finish it (terraforming FTW).
turnset 2; part 2 (turn ~160) :
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I get a Great Burseg from combat and make a super medic (who gets sent to the front line). Meanwhile, Leto is willing to trade Protected Trade so I switch my research. A few turns later I trade him Law of Arrakis for PT and 25 gold. I switch immediately to Mercantilism once the trade is in the bag. Research path will be Water Economy->Caste Systems->Offworld Trade.
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I choose Academies for the free tech from the Cogitor Philosopher. I now start on The Order of The Mentats in the capital as the next build. I have 96.03% odds attacking Carthag with CR3 hardened bladesman (but only have one atm) but there are many units guarding that city so progress is slow (I don't risk attacking with lower odds just yet). Still, my attacking stack is growing while I wait to take the city.
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Temple of Alia is of course a no-brainer. Time to spread Qizarate around. Getting Qizarate IS the key to securing a terraforming victory. Why you might ask? Answer - fish speakers. Fish speakers are the best defensive unit in the game (who will be boosted by sapho juice enhanced mentants under the Kanly civic). The pieces are falling into place quite nicely.
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I am still attacking Carthag but can't take it just yet. I am making progress though.
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Carthag falls. I get Filmbook Archives as a prize. Nice! A military headquaters is not too shabby either. :goodjob: I also adopt Faufreluches as a civic once Caste Systems is researched. Religious is a really good trait. Not having anarchy when switching civics is not insignificant.
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I decide to take peace (for the moment). I need to heal before continuing the crusade against Baron Harkonnen. He is hurting so he gives up Light Manufacturing to seal the peace deal. Not exactly useful but at least I don't have to reasearch that tech now (the Fremen can't build quads - only capture them).
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No tech brokering - no problem - I still have a nice tech lead. The following turn, Margot begs Academies from me. I tell her no - once I build universities (and basically secure a tech lead for the rest of the game) I might trade her this tech - for a price.
This wraps up turnset 2. Once turnset 3 has been posted (already played), I will finish this DU (and then on to the new patch). A small spoiler - Dune does indeed get terraformed (it is just a matter of score now). :D
The save...View attachment du3-turn160.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
Finally got around to finishing the game. Will try to post the next turnset soonish. Sneak peek on the end result. :D
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Really fun game. Hopefully the next writeups will be equally as entertaining. :)
 
turnset 3; part 1 (~turn 177) :
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Since I am going to terraform my way to victory, cottages (on sink/graben) will be the improvement of choice - especially once they become irrigated as the land transforms to anchor grass and then grassland. In a game where I was using Arrakis Spice civic, I normally would just build solar farms everywhere. I have a shortage of workers so will focus on improving the best tiles (and still prioritize spice harvesters).
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I trade Margot Fenring Culture of Dune for Defensive Armaments and her world map. Leto II adopts Arrakis Paradise (no surprise there) and on turn 168 Baron Harkonnen demands Divine Mandate in tribute - the reply to which is obviously no. For his arrogance, the war resumes. For my effort, I get CHOAM headquaters (nice!) and another Great Burseg. Take that Baron - how about them apples.
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I am first to Solaris Economy and use the free Great Merchant to bulb Guild Banking to within 2 turns of discovery. Research path is Chemical Explosives->Ablative Shields (for the free Great Burseg). I choose Sapho Juice Supplier as my first offworld trade contract. Time to build Mentats and move them to my 3 military production cities. Standard stuff (as anyone who has been following the DU series should know by now) for my play style.
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The attack on Keke Basin goes smoothly. The Baron now has only two cities left (one of which is polar).
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This peace deal is too good to pass up. I will finish off Baron Harkonnen at my leisure later on. Right now I need to start preparing for war against the other AIs - probably House Corrino first on the way to the Bene Tleilax (whom I haven't met yet but can see their borders).
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Since I have Qizarate religion, Ginaz Training (I & II) will be useful promotions once I can build fish speakers later in the game. These units (plus a few vassals) will allow me to terraform Dune with impunity. Strong defensive units + strong vassals = no chance of being the victim of a dogpile by the Arrakis Spice factions (and good relations with the Bene Gesserit for sharing a religion is the icing on the cake).
Should be able to post every day from here on out. In the meantime, time to install the new patch and test it out. I think I'll try Immortal for DU 4. Should be fun. ;)
 
Correction to last part :
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I didn't take the peace treaty as I originally stated. That is a misplay since Nagirah Basin is the last city Baron Harkonnen has on the continent (and speed is important in waging war successfully). It is possible I wanted to farm more xp for my invasion force but maybe I thought that city was the polar city? Doesn't matter as the next part will show.
turnset 3; part 2 (~turn 204) :
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The tech picture on turn 180. Pretty much a blow out.
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I use the free Great Burseg (from Ablative Shields) to build a military academy in the capital and set research to Way of Liet->Adapted Agriculture->Planetary Ecology. I don't want to fall too far behind Leto in this research path but should catch up easily enough. Nagirah Basin falls swiftly and I make peace with Baron Harkonnen for his world map + 20 gold.
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With the war finished, a civics switch is made. I don't really need Theocracy anymore (although the bonus on constructing buildings is nice) and Meritocracy will boost diplo with Margot while Free Trade should help keep science output high. I also use a Great Burseg (who had been sleeping) to build a military academy in Carthag.
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I trade creosote bush to Margot for 5 gold/turn and give Culture of Dune to Princess Irulan for Planetary Ecology (which saves me 1 turn of research) + world map + 50 gold. Research is directed towards Water of Life so I can build Spice Orgy and start mass producing Naib's Chosen (which will be front line troops for the next war).
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I finally meet the last AI. We meet again Master Scytale - care to vassal right now just to get it over with? I just met him and he already starts demanding stuff - Spice Industry which I refuse.
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Not really the best hammer city but it will do. Eventually, Carthag will get the Mentat and build units (since it already has a military academy) but infrastructure is still being built there.
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I bulb Imperialism (needed for Landsraad) with a Great Nobleman I had saved. I use the two saved Great Techman to 1 turn build Spice Orgy. Sietch Tabr will build University of Arrakis once enough Universities have been built.
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I am also building Naib's Chosen in the capital. I can only build ten so two cities producing units is enough for now. I will eventually have three cities building offensive forces but probably not until I have researched Vendettas.
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I am first to Covert Operations (no surprise there) and use the free Spymaster to extend my golden age. I am almost ready for the next war. The obvious target is Princess Irulan since she is closest. Also, I do not want to face the Corrino unique unit so taking her out early is the preferred strategy.
 
you seem to never build cities on polar ice
 
The reason I don't build polar cities is mainly because of maintenance (and the civics I like to adopt). There is a civic (can't remember the name) which negates the extra maintenance from distance to the capital but also hurts culture so I never use it. On lower levels, polar cities are more tenable. You just suffer too much of a research hit on Emperor +. IMO, it is much better to capture them later in the game when your economy is much stronger. Plus, much of the technology that really helps exploit the polar area comes much later in the tech tree. Since the AIs will actively settle the polar areas, I let them develop the polar region and take those cities by force once I have a military advantage. Thanks for the post. I kind of wondered when someone would have an observation or comment. :)
 
I also find that it is rarely worth expanding to the polar areas, particularly in the early game. This is why I am so frustrated by Chris's preference to weaken these further, rather than boosting them.

I think Imperialism is sometimes useful, but I don't use it a lot. Do other people find it useful? If it is too weak, do we need to buff it some?

I also wonder if military mentats are too much of a no-brainer (maybe their effect should be reduced) as compared to the other mentats, and I wonder if there are too many first-to-research great people, which I don't see any particular design need for, particularly in a mod which has such a broad tech tree (as opposed to vanilla, which is much more narrow/linear).
 
I think Imperialism is sometimes useful, but I don't use it a lot. Do other people find it useful? If it is too weak, do we need to buff it some?
The culture hit is just too big IMO. Maybe lower the penalty to -10% (from -25%) and then Imperialism would be more viable. Not entirely sure - maybe other players make good use of it as is.
I also wonder if military mentats are too much of a no-brainer (maybe their effect should be reduced) as compared to the other mentats, and I wonder if there are too many first-to-research great people, which I don't see any particular design need for, particularly in a mod which has such a broad tech tree (as opposed to vanilla, which is much more narrow/linear).
I wouldn't say military mentats are a no-brainer. You get +3 XP (or 1 more XP than a settled Great Burseg) - not unbalanced or game breaking. In my case, military mentats fit my play style (since I really only have 3 cities building offensive military units). I am sure other players could highlight the effective use of the other mentats using their own unique playstyle. I think the mentat design is fine as is. Although I haven't counted, I think the number of first-to-research great people is about the same as in vanilla (which makes for a lower percentage of the total number of techs). I don't really think there is a balance issue here. From a flavor standpoint, the design works well (in other words the GP received makes sense considering the technology that is being researched). However, for discussion, which GP do you think should be removed?
 
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