Ah new warmonger hate.

I finally got to see it in action because I was so dang curious to see what it's like.

So I decided to make Rome my target, he like ten turns away from my capital! He had to go anyways! And proceeded to ignore diplomacy completely because why not.

So after the through roasting of the city of Rome..


And I met this nice guy Harald from Denmark and set up embassies together.. it was fun and stuff.


And a couple of turns later
I see this.. A World war 1 in medieval era with me as their target. xD I never had a world war 1 in medieval era no matter how hard I tried before.


Now only problem is that .. I had several seas between them and me no way they will actually try to pillage my fishing boat or anything.


As you can see in this screenshot, Portugal became the obvious first target for me.


They launched an combined army of pikemen and catapults.
They did pretty damn well considering that they was going for culture win and had horrible military. Their invading army was routed back through the mountain pass. But their army lasted long enough for surprisingly Ottoman Empire's triremes to reach my shores along with Spanish triremes and Zulu triremes. At this time, I only had three triremes to defend with.. And the Danish.. they was very ridiculously faraway but they managed to have two triremes reach my capital and get sunk.

However due to classic map design fail by firaxis, Coastal tiles is only one hex wide most of the times. It became very trivial to defend against 20+ combined triremes with three triremes and several composite bowmen+ a catapult. I even pillaged four cargo ships from zulus during this period! $$$$$$$$$$$$$

And the world was entering industrial era at about same time surprisingly! It occured at about same time as I was launching an counter invasion at zulus. The two citadels you see in there is mine, I decided to burn them like that because I was losing gold. I didn't even had a single trade route up because I was too dang busy building important infrastructure+ military units. And it costs build time to build the trade units XD

Yes that's right, it's turn 252 and I haven't built a single caravan or cargo ship. I had one cargo ship from the colossus but it got pillaged by a spanish trireme.



World Congress got established, and the entire world is hostile towards me. With several in guarded mode.

Ottomans is currently "Friendly" towards me though. I suspect backstabbery or they decided that I looked pretty cool after making Zulu's Impis look silly in front of my frigates.

So even when I completely ignored diplomacy, I still managed to have a "friend" who will might backstab me or not XD And it certainly made a boring game liven up even when AIs was no threat to me whatsoever, triremes make for a really horrible invasion forces.

Tl;dr version: I like new warmonger hate mechanic. It is great, now Firaxis just need to improve the combat ai.

The only problem I have with the new hate is the AI gets away with it. I often see the AI kill another civ purely for a domination victory or to get their lands, and all the other AI are like: "oh you little scamp." "oh well, I suppose boys will be boys" ect. etc.

But then when an AI pops a city 4 tiles from my cap, spams me with their religion, and doesn't stop when asked, so I have to attack them, all the AI is like:

WOAH! what an unprovoked attack! When need to rid the world of this menace, before he causes the downfall of all civilization. FIRE TEH NUKES!!!!1! ARAGHHHHH!!!

Yeah, AI seems to have its own special clubhouse

Ah, trireme stacks...

I wonder if anyone has done a mod yet where Triremes can move into ocean tiles but lose 50 hp if they end the turn there - so the AI would attack your lead ship with 2 or 3 or its own - that would make those AI stacks a little more threatening in the early game.

I haven't played BNW much yet but you maybe should give the others civs gift like a lux or some Resources or even hard cash to make them think in the other direction while you slowly consume them one after one.
Another way could be to try to become friends with some of them because they dont useally dow you.
To get easy friend a gift could be all that it takes.

And proceeded to ignore diplomacy completely because why not.

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Only real mistake right there.

You just have to make a couple DoFs, pick an enemy, denounce them, ask or bribe your friends to join you in a war against your enemy. Then you take your enemy's capital while gaining the "common foe" modifier with your allies and only getting half the warmonger hate with them. Usually sometime during the war or after the peace treaty some one will denounce you. You're friends will take the denouncement with a grain of salt because they like you. You denounce them back, wait for your friend(s) to join in on the denouncefest then ask/bribe them to DoW the new enemy with you. Rinse and repeat until you have to backstab your buddies.

It's the method I use in almost every game. Usually I can get away with a lot of warmongering while keeping 2 or 3 good friends most of the game. It's why I just don't understand all the warmonger complaint threads. Only drawback for me is that all the diplomacy stuff can take a number of turns and it makes it hard to capitalize on some UUs unless conditions are just right.

Harald usually makes a great ally. Shoulda asked him to go after Rome too.

Eliminating civs(you're the one to take the last city) will eventually incur a permanent warmonger penalty with all known civs. Take out %25 and its critical, take out %40 and it's extreme. The only defense against this to have the biggest pointiest sticks score, and even that isn't guaranteed to stop the DOWs.

Try to talk to all the civilizations. When you see that civilizations team up on you it means that you haven't made deals with them that benefit them. With a lack of deals, AIs start denouncing which makes your relationship with the other AIs even more troubling.

Jampine said:

The only problem I have with the new hate is the AI gets away with it. I often see the AI kill another civ purely for a domination victory or to get their lands, and all the other AI are like: "oh you little scamp." "oh well, I suppose boys will be boys" ect. etc.

But then when an AI pops a city 4 tiles from my cap, spams me with their religion, and doesn't stop when asked, so I have to attack them, all the AI is like:

WOAH! what an unprovoked attack! When need to rid the world of this menace, before he causes the downfall of all civilization. FIRE TEH NUKES!!!!1! ARAGHHHHH!!!

Yeah, AI seems to have its own special clubhouse

Click to expand...

I don't think this is actually true in the code. I've seen plenty of AIs backstab or take cities early and be universally hated upon for the rest of the game. I love it when this happens because joining the hate train can get better diplo benefits, and I have an enemy to DoW with little penalty. You also probably blame the AIs when they don't offer you fair trade deals, but we don't know what type of trade deals the AIs are offering each other. I'm guessing it's a little different with human players (like, AI is probably more likely to get favorable deals with us than with each other, because we know they can't negotiate very well), but I doubt the AIs send as many trade routes or trade as often with civs they don't like.

I really think this perception is due to seeing huge warmonger penalties when we warmonger, and then seeing computers take cities with little penalties from time to time. The thing is though, I see it happen the other way too at times, as if I make sure to make friends, I can often do pretty well diplomatically even with some warmongering, especially before ideologies come in to play and completely shift the world diplomacy dynamic.

VicRatlhead5199 said:

Rinse and repeat until you have to backstab your buddies.

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Cept after 2 or 3 times even fully green best friends will backstab you first. Even with perfect diplo i was never able to take this to fruition. Maybe if small games but large/huge games i get to that point (~3 times) where it stops working.

LeTigidou said:

Cept after 2 or 3 times even fully green best friends will backstab you first. Even with perfect diplo i was never able to take this to fruition. Maybe if small games but large/huge games i get to that point (~3 times) where it stops working.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but when friends show only positive modifiers, doesn't that mean that they may have activated the "Deception" attribute that hides all negative modifiers?

If I don't see any negative modifiers, I prepare myself for a backstab.

Jampine said:

The only problem I have with the new hate is the AI gets away with it. I often see the AI kill another civ purely for a domination victory or to get their lands, and all the other AI are like: "oh you little scamp." "oh well, I suppose boys will be boys" ect. etc.

But then when an AI pops a city 4 tiles from my cap, spams me with their religion, and doesn't stop when asked, so I have to attack them, all the AI is like:

WOAH! what an unprovoked attack! When need to rid the world of this menace, before he causes the downfall of all civilization. FIRE TEH NUKES!!!!1! ARAGHHHHH!!!

Yeah, AI seems to have its own special clubhouse

Click to expand...

redwings1340 said:

I don't think this is actually true in the code. I've seen plenty of AIs backstab or take cities early and be universally hated upon for the rest of the game. I love it when this happens because joining the hate train can get better diplo benefits, and I have an enemy to DoW with little penalty. You also probably blame the AIs when they don't offer you fair trade deals, but we don't know what type of trade deals the AIs are offering each other. I'm guessing it's a little different with human players (like, AI is probably more likely to get favorable deals with us than with each other, because we know they can't negotiate very well), but I doubt the AIs send as many trade routes or trade as often with civs they don't like.

I really think this perception is due to seeing huge warmonger penalties when we warmonger, and then seeing computers take cities with little penalties from time to time. The thing is though, I see it happen the other way too at times, as if I make sure to make friends, I can often do pretty well diplomatically even with some warmongering, especially before ideologies come in to play and completely shift the world diplomacy dynamic.

Click to expand...

It's not true. Code is very clear about that; Diplo AI processes every civ the same way. I have shown that more than once in other threads.

Guys I said I ignored diplomacy on purpose just to see what will happen for lols.

I'm going to continue playing the map after I am finished with pasta i'm eating right now.

And no Ai don't have that special clubhouse, they' play by same diplomacy rules as humans does.

And I loved the dogpile, made the game more fun than usual! I used to get dogpiled alot in Civ 3 and Civ 4. I wonder how long the dogpiles will keep on happening until I get too powerful or wiped off the map.

Jampine said:

The only problem I have with the new hate is the AI gets away with it. I often see the AI kill another civ purely for a domination victory or to get their lands, and all the other AI are like: "oh you little scamp." "oh well, I suppose boys will be boys" ect. etc.

Click to expand...

Not the case at all - in one recent game Shaka took out a couple of small civs, and the rest of the world piled on him. In another, Genghis earned enough dislike from repeatedly warring against city-states (even when not actually capturing them) that he almost didn't survive the game.

LeTigidou said:

Cept after 2 or 3 times even fully green best friends will backstab you first. Even with perfect diplo i was never able to take this to fruition. Maybe if small games but large/huge games i get to that point (~3 times) where it stops working.

Click to expand...

Sometimes that does happen but if you're a real warmonger you'll easily have an army capable of fighting on multiple fronts by the time this happens and an empire large enough to sustain it too.

Actually last time it happened to me I lost Portugal as an ally right around ideology time and Catherine, who had denounced me earlier in the game, decided to befriend me after we both chose Order and I liberated a couple of her cities. I lost a friend and gained one at the same time.

The game I just finished with the Celts was on a huge map and I controlled 8/12 capitals and had the Dutch and Spain in my back pocket the whole game. I did get denounced by a former ally, Carthage, but I think it's more because she went Autocracy and I went Order rather than my warmongering.

GhostSalsa said:

Ah, trireme stacks...

I wonder if anyone has done a mod yet where Triremes can move into ocean tiles but lose 50 hp if they end the turn there - so the AI would attack your lead ship with 2 or 3 or its own - that would make those AI stacks a little more threatening in the early game.

Click to expand...

Since WHoward did that Terrain Crossing Mod using his DLL, I plan on giving that ability to Barbarians and Denmark... I thought about granting it to all early ships (Trireme and Galleass) but I figured the AI would end up killing most of their navy units out of stupidity (more blatantly than usual).

In my previous mod incarnation (before WHoward's DLL), I gave all barbarians the ability to cross mountains and ice... with raging barbarians on it made for some interesting surprises.... especially since I gave barbarians a +300% vs cities back then.

I got five-way declaration of war on me in my last game.
I was Assyria and Orange declared war on me (territorial disputes) so I caputred his capital and his second city that had Petra and NW...

and next turn, Denmark, Siam, America, Mongols and Greece declared war on me... Which makes me think that they already planned to attack me (for reason unknown) since they were all in 10 turn pact, because some of them asked for peace right after 10 turns expired (refused before that).

Not a terrible war, since I've never seen Greece or Mongols, Demark was busy attacking India with only few guys showing up at my doors. America lost two of it cities then asked for peace, and I wiped out Siam since he refused to surrender (left him with only once city in the middle of desert).

I liberated India's capital and two of their cities from Denmark and Ghandi was all happy, asking fro friendship. Alex and George wanted to be my friends after we stopped fighting. Then few turns later, Ghandi, Alex, Washington, Genghis and Harald all declared war on me again !? (and it was just a few turns later after peace negotiation)

Very weird game, but whole lot better then preview few long boring games when there was not a single war involved with any civs. I simply hate to just "click next turn" for a few hours, I want at least few wars.

You whiped out rome so thats a huge penalty. Never do that.


Olso does anybody know when you get a minor warmonger penalty never had one?

This is why I refuse to play on anything but continents anymore. The AI cares way too frigging much when you put down a Civ that is nowhere near them. At least on Continents I've largely cleaned up my continent (as necessary) before I meet some new off-continent friends.

Still, the dogpiling under the new diplomacy is ridiculous at times. The denouncement mechanic really needs to be fixed, and early warmongering penalties need to dissipate much quicker.

Has Firaxis ever mentioned anything about implementing a casus belli system into future iterations? Before, I could understand them not wanting to do it in order to keep diplomacy relatively simple. Now, adding in all these messy exceptions to try and patch up the problem areas is just creating more problems that need more jury rigging...

If they havn't already considered reworking it... I hope they do. Wars and diplomacy just feel so empty compared to Europa Universalis, and this warmonger stuff is awfully contrived for what it offers to the experience.

Abraxis said:

Has Firaxis ever mentioned anything about implementing a casus belli system into future iterations? Before, I could understand them not wanting to do it in order to keep diplomacy relatively simple. Now, adding in all these messy exceptions to try and patch up the problem areas is just creating more problems that need more jury rigging...

If they havn't already considered reworking it... I hope they do. Wars and diplomacy just feel so empty compared to Europa Universalis, and this warmonger stuff is awfully contrived for what it offers to the experience.

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couldn't agree more In europe universal you can actualy see the threshold in civilization 5 its a big question how the penalty is caculated and how it builts up