Venice is evil! (or stupid?)

CivilizedPlayer · Jan 2, 2014

So I was just playing a game as Morocco working for a CV, with a heavy basis on religion. Venice was right next to me, but we managed to be friends (I guess he can't covet my lands if he can't expand anyway), but we both founded religions, and he quickly set about trying to convert my heathens - who worship Almighty Netflix, of course - to his Hinduism.

Nonetheless, we remained friends, so I asked him to stop converting my cities. He said "sure", or whatever, I don't remember the exact wording. It didn't even hurt me diplomatically with him. But, despite this, he carried on business as usual and just kept converting my cities. What?! Why? Does he think I won't notice that my citizens are giving up Almighty Netflix in droves? And now that I asked him, and he "agreed", I can't ask again. So what do I do? Is this a glitch, or is Venice just programmed to be an idiotic dirtbag?

PhilBowles · Jan 2, 2014

CivilizedPlayer said:
So I was just playing a game as Morocco working for a CV, with a heavy basis on religion. Venice was right next to me, but we managed to be friends (I guess he can't covet my lands if he can't expand anyway)

He coveted mine (he can expand by warfare), but not enough to avoid signing a DoF. I feel a bit sorry for him - we both spawned on an isolated continent without a single city-state in sight.

Nonetheless, we remained friends, so I asked him to stop converting my cities. He said "sure", or whatever, I don't remember the exact wording. It didn't even hurt me diplomatically with him. But, despite this, he carried on business as usual and just kept converting my cities. What?! Why? Does he think I won't notice that my citizens are giving up Almighty Netflix in droves? And now that I asked him, and he "agreed", I can't ask again. So what do I do? Is this a glitch, or is Venice just programmed to be an idiotic dirtbag?

Are you sure he agreed? The last few times I've asked people to stop (including Venice in my current game), they've said "in spite of your protests, we're going to keep doing it".

Still, while AIs generally abide by promises because they suffer diplo penalties otherwise, they won't always, so he might just have promised and reneged - humans can do it too, after all. It's deliberate behaviour, but not specific to Venice.

CivilizedPlayer · Jan 2, 2014

Yeah, I'm 100% certain that he said yes. And within 3 turns, he was converting again (and it was definitely him, I checked the units. And I guess the whole "reneging on a deal" is the only logical conclusion, but it just seems bizarre that he'd do so so suddenly, and then not acknowlegde it in any way.

GhostSalsa · Jan 3, 2014

CivilizedPlayer said:
Yeah, I'm 100% certain that he said yes. And within 3 turns, he was converting again (and it was definitely him, I checked the units. And I guess the whole "reneging on a deal" is the only logical conclusion, but it just seems bizarre that he'd do so so suddenly, and then not acknowlegde it in any way.

Assume AI will always try to convert you in BNW. Sadly, I've stopped giving open borders at all when near piety civs. At least that kills their missionaries. I say "sadly" because BNW was ostensibly supposed to encourage more inter-civ interaction. But instead you are punished for allowing open borders in 2 critical ways, so you have to play the recluse.

GoStu · Jan 3, 2014

CivilizedPlayer said:
So what do I do? Is this a glitch, or is Venice just programmed to be an idiotic dirtbag?

I find a lot of civs ignore the "please stop converting my cities" request. Therefore, I have adopted my own rule for dealing with these civilizations:

Failure to comply with this order will be met with lethal force.

mclericp · Jan 3, 2014

Since venice is just a small state, u can just invade. Solves all problem

VicRatlhead5199 · Jan 3, 2014

mclericp said:
Since venice is just a small state, u can just invade. Solves all problem

I had the same problem as the OP. I was playing Indonesia and had Peace Gardens as a belief (a great belief for Indonesia BTW). Enrico built Borobudur and went crazy with missionaries which was messing with my happiness. I asked him to stop and he didn't so I denounced and crushed him. It's so easy since you rarely ever have to take more than just Venice itself.

is Venice just programmed to be an idiotic dirtbag

I think Venice can be more annoying than other AI because he generally doesn't have many cities of his own to convert so he spams his neighbors. It also leads him to commit suicide by angering neighbors of other religions. I haven't seen an AI Venice last past the Renaissance yet and it's not always by my hand. I even saw AI Bismarck sack Venice only a few turns after he DoW'ed him. It kind of impressed me since the AI is rarely that efficient at taking cities.

bbbt · Jan 3, 2014

I've had this happen with Siam. His great prophet converted a city. I asked him to stop converting. He told me he'd stop. His GP literally just sat there not moving for maybe ten turns, and then continued on converting.

Kouvb593kdnuewnd · Jan 3, 2014

Just be happy that he don't do his 40-50 turn rush which he can do under player Control.

Just get a inqusator in each city and he can't convert them

reddishrecue · Jan 3, 2014

The Greeks in reality did consider the venetians as evil people. Enrico dandolo was actually a villain to the Greeks. This is why the venetians lived in a solitary island by themselves.

Sturmgewher88mm · Jan 4, 2014

If Venice gets a religion, I always destroy him, because he spams everyone. Otherwise, he's a decent neighbor, unless there are CSs nearby.

Sagax · Jan 4, 2014

Doesn't Dandolo's AI have one of the highest deception values in the game?

I never trust him. He is unlikely to be a military threat, but him denouncing in the middle of DoF (provided you were nice) is expected.

mclericp · Jan 4, 2014

Sturmgewher88mm said:
If Venice gets a religion, I always destroy him, because he spams everyone. Otherwise, he's a decent neighbor, unless there are CSs nearby.

i wish the bandits would capture his merchant of venice on the way to the citystates.
I remember once stealing morocco's great prophet during a war. Best game ever.

apocalypse105 · Jan 4, 2014

Have you ever looked at Enrico Dandolo his eyes it looks like he is possessed

So yes venice is evil. Never buy a city state that is close to venice i once spend 1000 gold to get a city state as a ally the turn after venice bought it :mad:

CivilizedPlayer · Jan 4, 2014

Agreed on him being possessed, those eyes are truly terrifying. Also just realized another reason he's evil: he destroys city-states. Once he puppets them, they stop being city states. Not sure if this is a glitch or intentional, but they can't be liberated, and they can even be razed. A big difference from what normally happens, where they are treated as a "capital", have to be taken over or liberated. Evil Enrico crushes even there spirit for independence!

redwings1340 · Jan 4, 2014

I'm not sure I've ever seen the AI keep a promise of not converting. I really think that's a glitch in the game. As for Venice though, he is pretty evil. Usually he's small and disliked though, so I haven't had too many problems with him in my games.

Skritt · Jan 4, 2014

His eyes are like that because Enrico Dandolo was blind.

OT: Every civ does that, either they'll ignore your request to stop converting, or 'agree', wait some time (anywhere from 10-100 turns, possibly depending on their deceptiveness rating (at least that's what I noticed, the more honorable leaders will obviously avoid breaking their promise)) then start doing it all over again. Best solution to this is to wipe them off the face of the earth. With Venice it's even easier than with other civs as AI is really inept at playing Venice.

LoneRebel · Jan 4, 2014

CivilizedPlayer said:
Agreed on him being possessed, those eyes are truly terrifying. Also just realized another reason he's evil: he destroys city-states. Once he puppets them, they stop being city states. Not sure if this is a glitch or intentional, but they can't be liberated, and they can even be razed. A big difference from what normally happens, where they are treated as a "capital", have to be taken over or liberated. Evil Enrico crushes even there spirit for independence!

It's the same as what happens with Austria's Diplomatic Marriage, right? Except that where Austria allows the city-state to at least retain the dignity of an alliance through marriage and maybe even a Dual Monarchy, Enrico just buys them out like an evil CEO doing M&A.

Væringjar · Jan 4, 2014

Not only Venice but many other Civs doing that.

camelotcrusade · Jan 4, 2014

It drives me nuts that you can't tell people to stop converting you until after they do it a few times. I want to tell them to GTFO the moment I spot their slimy missionaries in my territory. IMO it should be an option right after they found a religion.

Of course, the fact they ignore you is another matter entirely. I imagine they only quit it if they they are afraid of you.

Venice is evil! (or stupid?)

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