Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

Hey DH thx for recognizing my idea!

@Dancing Hoskuld
I think that's the risk you take being nomadic (aka picking nomadic start). It would be a risky way to start but possibly have a greater experience if you do survive it.

That's why i recommended that the nomad unit itself have a great bonus to animal units.

Perhaps your nomad camp could only be attacked by certain animals (it could carry around culture under it [instant claim tile?] like lion/tiger could sneak in (10% mechanism of catacombs?), doing damage and maybe eat a nearby gatherer. Mamoth herds could come your way, [DH , the sesonal paths for animals in regard to terrain is a great idea for another new strategic layer like wind etc!], your nomadic camp would have to move out of the way, maybe setting up a little trap on a forested hill and some units on the other side of the valley, surrounding the herd.
Maybe animals could be "killed half" so if you win the fight vs the mamoth, it remains at 2/3 strength and gives food/hammers [you may have killed a young/small mamoth]
such big units could only be subdued at 1/3 strength. other units would be killable with 1 fight, though (duck, pheasant), some with 2 fights. They would heal though.

Maybe also herbavores don't autoattack, only after you killed some of them (they learn either to flee or to attack as defense) You could have some animals you feed rather than hunt, which won't be afraid of humans rather adept to them and becoem attracted to you...

so you could form your megafauna domestication much like culture now. If you always gift food to passing mamoths instead of surrounding them you could also subdue it (it would have a scale of like/hate towards player, much like an AI is friendly towards you or hates you, if an animal is ultra friendly it will follow you and become your unit (like dogs).

New feature: animal attitudes^^
 
The other problem is that if you start as nomad and can't place your city until sedentary lifestyle then there will be no room on the map since barbarians (not AI nations) can found cities before sedentary lifestyle.

Hey DH thx for recognizing my idea!



Perhaps your nomad camp could only be attacked by certain animals (it could carry around culture under it [instant claim tile?] and only some animals like lion/tiger could sneak in (10% mechanism of catacombs?), doing damage and maybe eat a nearby gatherer. Mamoth herds could come your way, [DH , the sesonal paths for animals in regard to terrain is an other great idea for another new strategic layer like wind etc!], your nomadic camp would have to move out of the way, maybe setting up a little trap on a forested hill and some units on the other side of the valley, surrounding the herd.
Maybe animals could be "killed half" so if you win the fight vs the mamoth, it remains at 2/3 strength and gives food/hammers [you may have killed a young/small mamoth]
such big units could only be subdued at 1/3 strength. other units would be killable with 1 fight, though (duck, pheasant), some with 2 fights.

Playing with RoH I was giving promotions to the nomad with techs discovered. It is all a bit more complicated than that but I a still playing with it.
 
The other problem is that if you start as nomad and can't place your city until sedentary lifestyle then there will be no room on the map since barbarians (not AI nations) can found cities before sedentary lifestyle.

Would there be a possibility to specify in the code at which era the barbaric settlers would be activated? if so, I suggest they begin to settle down when first player reaches ancient? Or they could have their own nomad camps in beginning, moving around. Don't think map will be too full, honestly that would be pretty easy to balance imho.

Playing with RoH I was giving promotions to the nomad with techs discovered. It is all a bit more complicated than that but I a still playing with it.


Sry what is RoH again? :blush:
You say you already have nomad camp in your personal C2C build? great!!! wanna test it! We could have a secound SVN section with that build somehow so interested players could help messing around with playtesting that?

P.S. I edited ideas about animal attitudes to last post... you think that's possible in some ways?
 
Would there be a possibility to specify in the code at which era the barbaric settlers would be activated? if so, I suggest they begin to settle down when first player reaches ancient? Or they could have their own nomad camps in beginning, moving around. Don't think map will be too full, honestly that would be pretty easy to balance imho.
Should be easy to switch that off.

Btw, I intend to make a small demo showing a nomadic start using a combination of property and outcome system soon.
 
Should be easy to switch that off.

Btw, I intend to make a small demo showing a nomadic start using a combination of property and outcome system soon.

can't wait for it!

:goodjob::clap::bowdown::worship::woohoo::wow:
:rockon: [party]:bounce:
 
Would there be a possibility to specify in the code at which era the barbaric settlers would be activated? if so, I suggest they begin to settle down when first player reaches ancient? Or they could have their own nomad camps in beginning, moving around. Don't think map will be too full, honestly that would be pretty easy to balance imho.

The problem is that I enter the Ancient era before I get Sedentary Lifestyle and I almost beeline that tech.

When the barbarians form random cities is defined in the XML. So it can be changed.

Sry what is RoH again? :blush:
You say you already have nomad camp in your personal C2C build? great!!! wanna test it! We could have a secound SVN section with that build somehow so interested players could help messing around with playtesting that?

RoH = Rise of the Homos(Development Thread).

I have changed something or other and the nomadic camp is not "building" stuff. I suspect I have done something to disable the screen somehow. :( I have not been playing C2C, just playing around with RoH and seeing which WLBO stuff I can easily use with the Outcomes System.

P.S. I edited ideas about animal attitudes to last post... you think that's possible in some ways?

I am not sure. The notion people have that herbivours do not attack unless pervoked is a strange one to me. Crossing their territory is enough to cause them to attack and that is all the units are doing.
 
I am not sure. The notion people have that herbivours do not attack unless pervoked is a strange one to me. Crossing their territory is enough to cause them to attack and that is all the units are doing.

Well, depends on the herbavore. I agree that there isn't a hard split carnivore to herbivore, but some species won't attack unless you corner them. Even some species you might regard as powerful like brown bears say (if they hear you first you won't see them unless you stumble across their young)
 
Each herbivore and carnivore could get one of the following agressiveness values,

animals could change their attitude the more or less they are hunted or feeded, somehow evolving attitude.

Feeding animals would give attitude points towards a player which at some point "bribes" the unit (the spy code could be used for that)

herbivores

0 (always fleeing/playing dead when cornered, doing nothing - for example tortoise)
1 (fleeing, attacking when cornered only - horse)
2 (avoiding contact but defending territory after a while- attacks when human unit stays besides it for some turns - gorilla)
3 (brave animal, standing the ground, attacking often - warhogs)

carnivores

0 (prudent - attacks if presence is near but does not follow if human unit goes away - like bears)
1 (sneaky - follows, attacks after few turns - snakes, cheetah)
2 (aggressive - follows and attacks as soon as possible - sabretooth?)

The ultimate thing would be to have the simulation of a working ecosystem, where herbivores and carnivores interact by themselves.
The_J mentioned that that by hacking the code, two or more barbs could be established, so that would make it possible to have the simulation of animals paths (the barbs herbivores and carnivores would both "build" their own animal paths (everytime an animal ends a move on certain tile a value is given to that tile it like when a worker building a path somewhere.
The value then fades away after a while if no other herbivore ends its turn on the tile, which would have it increased again. So, much like ants our herbivore animals would roam around on their valued paths that would change as they interact with the carnivores and would flee from them or lose the fight.. (like the example with the fish and the sharks we should try to have a basic system that recovers itself after a while)

Then humans come and messes everything up, burning holes in the ecosystem - or maybe having another approach towards animals... could be fine to be friends with many animals if they are raging ;-)

A third/forth/... barb fraction (if the barb hack is possible) could be the different humans like neanderthal, homo erectus etc.
 
Each herbivore and carnivore could get one of the following agressiveness values,

animals could change their attitude the more or less they are hunted or feeded, somehow evolving attitude.

Feeding animals would give attitude points towards a player which at some point "bribes" the unit (the spy code could be used for that)

herbivores

0 (always fleeing/playing dead when cornered, doing nothing - for example tortoise)
1 (fleeing, attacking when cornered only - horse)
2 (avoiding contact but defending territory after a while- attacks when human unit stays besides it for some turns - gorilla)
3 (brave animal, standing the ground, attacking often - warhogs)

carnivores

0 (prudent - attacks if presence is near but does not follow if human unit goes away - like bears)
1 (sneaky - follows, attacks after few turns - snakes, cheetah)
2 (aggressive - follows and attacks as soon as possible - sabretooth?)

Essy enough to implement with minor tweaks to the animal AI routine. Would just need a new <iAggressiveness> tag. If we get a consensus on this it's no more than a couple hours work, which I'd be happy to do sometime (after I am dug out of my current backlog)
 
Essy enough to implement with minor tweaks to the animal AI routine. Would just need a new <iAggressiveness> tag. If we get a consensus on this it's no more than a couple hours work, which I'd be happy to do sometime (after I am dug out of my current backlog)

Seems reasonable. I certainly have no objections, as it enhances the hunter-hunted relationship in Prehistoric, unlike now, where it seems i'm always being hunted, and never actually hunting.
 
@DRJ

I posted a similar idea before.

I posted it before where it would have 5 possible animal personalities ...

Aggressive = Always attacks you on sight.
Defensive = Attacks you if you get too close.
Indifferent = Will not run or attack you on sight.
Cautious = Runs Away if you get too close.
Skittish = Runs away from you on sight.

And the DH said ...

Problems with this set. You will never catch cautious or skittish sea creatures. Ksohling suggested a curious option. Others have suggested herbavour, carnivor and so on. The other problem is that these are the general behaviour of the animals, they may react differently. Even bison will attack a lion pack to defend their young.

------

The ultimate thing would be to have the simulation of a working ecosystem, where herbivores and carnivores interact by themselves.
.

The problem is you would have to have a lot of lower food chain animals and big carnivores would be very rare. Thus you would kill tons of say rabbits, a couple deer and 1 bear or tiger if you were very lucky.



Also do you really want to go out and try to hunt a zebra only for it to be killed by a lion before you can get it?
 
I guess I should have read the thread before I tried to invent the wheel a secound time lol but nice there is a consensus. At least my flexible animal attitude towards player and bribing domesticating with food ideas are new.

What you guys say, different barb fractions possible by hacking the code?

@Koshling: great! C2C getting better by the hour^^

EDIT: regarding skittish sea creatures: you could set up traps, corridores they might flee into. Not too easy, when they would flee into ocean what some critters like dugong wouldn't as they live in shallow waters. Well actually they don't flee at all :rolleyes:
 
btw Jungle elephants were well known for running straight away from a hunter then when far enough away turning right or left. Then moving back towards the hunter in what was called a "P" path, where they would wait behind a screen of unbroken jungle for the hunter and then attack them. Here we have a sneaky herbivore.

I have only implemented the "harmless" line of promotions and even then Joseph_II had a unit killed by a duck!

On game trails, both the hunter and recon lines should be able to see and use them and perhaps place traps on them.
 
I have only implemented the "harmless" line of promotions and even then Joseph_II had a unit killed by a duck!

Ducks are dangerious!

Man Killed by Duck

A 35-year old man in Florida was killed when a duck flew into his face and knocked him off his speeding watercraft into a lake. The boat was travelling at about 55MPH.

A friend was watching the man from the shore. He turned away for just a moment, and when he looked back, saw he was not in the boat. He found the man in the lake and tried to revive him, but was too late. The duck's corpse was also recovered.

The official cause of death is listed as blunt trauma to the head, followed by drowning.

Source: http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=13442
 
btw Jungle elephants were well known for running straight away from a hunter then when far enough away turning right or left. Then moving back towards the hunter in what was called a "P" path, where they would wait behind a screen of unbroken jungle for the hunter and then attack them. Here we have a sneaky herbivore.

I have only implemented the "harmless" line of promotions and even then Joseph_II had a unit killed by a duck!

On game trails, both the hunter and recon lines should be able to see and use them and perhaps place traps on them.
Something is wrong with the harmless promotion line. In a game yesterday evening at least very early units like wanderers had a significant chance to get hurt or killed against harmless units.
 
I have added an exemplary nomad demo now on the SVN.
You can activate it in the modular loading controls.
It is pretty simple still and just intended to show some ideas (no promotions as a kind of building yet, only terrains as yield source, not features, no interaction with the hunting outcomes, ...).

When you activate the module, don't build a city with your initial band. Instead go around and gather the nomadic yields (fruit, hunts, material, lore). Wherever your unit ends the turn, it will gather from the surrounding plots. When you have gathered enough, you can build research or units (stone thrower and wanderer to be exact).
Nomadic yields are generated per turn on all plots depending on terrain type and accumulate there up to a certain point.
 
Wow thats great! :woohoo: :goodjob:

What do you mean 'do not build a city' - you mean you can still settle or move? If you settle you get two yields, city tile (+palace) + 1 tile for 1 pop (if your size1 city is not unhappy), while the wandering band just gets the yield of the tile it is on (without palace yields)?

What about Ai do they wander around or settle? On deity, how do their initial two nomad camps interact, do they tend to stay close to each other?

I have added an exemplary nomad demo now on the SVN.
You can activate it in the modular loading controls.

:scan: :hmm: :help:
 
Wow thats great! :woohoo: :goodjob:

What do you mean 'do not build a city' - you mean you can still settle or move? If you settle you get two yields, city tile (+palace) + 1 tile for 1 pop (if your size1 city is not unhappy), while the wandering band just gets the yield of the tile it is on (without palace yields)?

What about Ai do they wander around or settle? On deity, how do their initial two nomad camps interact, do they tend to stay close to each other?



:scan: :hmm: :help:
It is a demo. No AI, no real gameplay, just some showing of how the systems implemented now (with some extensions) could be used for a nomad start.
The band still has the city founding ability but of course it won't have it when the option really is implemented (I just kept it to avoid confusing the AI which will still pull off its normal program).
The NomadDemo can be switched on in MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml in the Assets/Modules folder.
 
I have added an exemplary nomad demo now on the SVN.
You can activate it in the modular loading controls.
It is pretty simple still and just intended to show some ideas (no promotions as a kind of building yet, only terrains as yield source, not features, no interaction with the hunting outcomes, ...).

When you activate the module, don't build a city with your initial band. Instead go around and gather the nomadic yields (fruit, hunts, material, lore). Wherever your unit ends the turn, it will gather from the surrounding plots. When you have gathered enough, you can build research or units (stone thrower and wanderer to be exact).
Nomadic yields are generated per turn on all plots depending on terrain type and accumulate there up to a certain point.

So the yields are the fruit, hunts, material, lore. What do they do?

Also how much do you need before research or build a unit? Because my research has not moved at all.

EDIT: Nevermind I found the button. Oh very cool! :goodjob:

EDIT2: So what are you thinking should be the tech that unlocks your first city? Like Shelter Building or even Cave Dwelling? I am thinking it could work like this;

- Band of Homo Sapiens cannot build a city until say Shelter Building.
- At Nomadic Lifestyle you can build Nomad units that are better than Band of Homo Sapiens.
- These Nomads can upgrade over time. Such as ...

Nomad (Req Nomadic Lifestyle) -> Horse Nomad (Req Horseback Riding) -> Etc.

If you go the nomad route then you can get better nomad stuff. If you pick the settling route then you start the game with one city as usual. Note these could be used in tandem where you have a single city and say a limit of 3 nomads that can roam around. Note that the nomad line cannot build cities (unless possibly at a later tech).

This way from the start until Shelter Building you are playing the Nomadic game. I also think that the gathering benefits should be toned down since I think you can get too much too fast. At least for the Band of Homo Sapiens. Nomads could possibly be that powerful.

EDIT3: For balance perhaps if you do settle a city then the nomad yields are less effective. Thus if you don't found a city you get better yields from the nomads to balance things out.
 

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