Balance and Gameplay discussion.

What kills it for me is the fact that it has a bad drawback. It was unhealthiness which is easy to fix but now it's a revolution issue which isn't as easy... although that's more preference and playstyle I guess.

I'd like to see it be a positive without a negative (save the upkeep cost naturally.) I mean what's the downside to Caste System? Either make all of them have a drawback or none of them, you know?

Several civics in other categories have draw backs. Mercantilisma and State Property come to mind. Its not the drawback itself, its if the benefits outwiegh the drawback, that should be the concern. I never use serfdom, but some people do, and it fits some strategies well.
 
This is more of a question than a suggestion, but are aircraft (mainly Light Bombers and then Jet Fighters and Strike Fighters) capable of sinking ships in LoR by directly attacking them like in Wolfshanze mod?

You mention that this mod was conceived out of a number of others including Wolfshanze which has this concept of 'lethality' whereby specific aircraft types are able to sink a ship. In terms of balance 1 aircraft should not be able to sink 1 ship, but say 3 or 4 should be required to sink a major asset such as a super carrier or missile cruiser/battleship (obviously if you attack an older ship like a caravel then 1 aircraft would be more than enough to sink it, but this would also reflect the increase in armour and protection offered to ships as naval technology advanced through the ages).

Just to give some perspective at the Battle of Midway in 1942 an entire squadron of SBD Dauntless dive bombers from USS Enterprise only scored 6 bomb hits on two of the Japanese flat-tops, causing them to be engulfed in flames and abandoned but this did not of itself cause the ships to sink then and there. Also in 1945 off of Okinawa an entire air wing of some 60 odd aircraft was required to sink the massive Japanese battleship the Yamato due to its ferocious anti-aircraft fire and very heavily armoured decks, and they did not do so without losing some 12 aircraft to the anti-air fire from it and its escorts so it wasn't a totally uneven contest.

So my point is that if 'lethality' is not active it could be made to work though by requiring the AI and player to have 'squadrons' of coastal defence aircraft based in forts all along the coastline in order to inflict some damage and losses upon an invading fleet, but at the same time not enough damage that the use of ships is not required for defense of your or the AI's coastline as well.

I played the Merged Mod a few months ago which incorporates the Wolfshanze mod and found that it was very well balanced with this particular asset; I had to have a lot of forts and attack planes to counter any naval incursions into my territory but still had to keep large naval forces handy as well to finish the weakened enemy fleets off, and thats what I like about the concept because it reflects the co-operation required between navy and airforce for coastal observation and defence.
 
Only the UCAV can do lethal air strikes, and that is an end game unit.
 
Just a couple of off hand notice from my current game. When Radio comes in, I can't build Mounted Units anymore, but I can still build Stables? I know Stables obsolete with Rocketry, but they should probably go out with Radio as well. Also, and I haven't gotten to this point in my current game yet to play it out, but Whale's obsolete, but then there is a tech that gives a bonus to Whale boats? Is this intentional (to make up for the now useless resource, but the boats are still there), or an oversight?

Has anyone looked into the upgrade costs assosciated with Naval units? They seem to be quite high (like Outrageously high). Also, Explorers dissapear from the build list, and are replaced by Pathfinders, but they also dissapear. I miss them as I use them as late game 2-Move Stack Medics. Might I suggest not obsoleting the Pathfinder, or adding a late game Medic unit (call it a field hospital, or MASH unit), to fill this void.

Never gotten this deep into a game of LoR (or Wolf, for that matter) so it shall be interesting.
 
Also, Explorers dissapear from the build list, and are replaced by Pathfinders, but they also dissapear. I miss them as I use them as late game 2-Move Stack Medics. Might I suggest not obsoleting the Pathfinder, or adding a late game Medic unit (call it a field hospital, or MASH unit), to fill this void.

Are all your stack medics dying or something, and how many do you need? Pathfinders should upgrade to cavalry and still be a 2MP medic, not sure if medic is availabel to cavalry in LoR, but they definitely get it from upgrades.
 
Are all your stack medics dying or something, and how many do you need? Pathfinders should upgrade to cavalry and still be a 2MP medic, not sure if medic is availabel to cavalry in LoR, but they definitely get it from upgrades.

No; they don't die (very often). I just use lots of smaller stacks (about 18 to 20 units per), and some games I've had as many as 25+ such stacks; each stack gets a medic. Early in the game I use Spears/Pikes as Medics, later in the game (after Pikes obsolete) I switch to Explorers as they are available, two moves, and never defend. In BTS this isn't an issue, because Explorers don't obsolete. With LoR, Explorers and Pathfinders obsolete, leaving neither unit for use as a stack medic, which entails using a combat unit - not something I prefer to do. And, like I suggested, since everyone uses stack medic units, when not just have a unit that does nothing but? Say it comes in with Medicine, 1 strength, can't attack, starts with Medic I, and has the whole Medic line open to it. It won't upgrade through combat, but with settled GGs, West Point, et al, it should start right out as a decent medic unit.

Then again; scratch that - the AI would never be able to use it properly.
 
I always considered the medic explorer in the late game as a cheese strategy, so I got rid of it. When Cav become available, there is no reason to build pathfinders.

Upgrades are reduced by 33% from BtS if the unitcombat doesn't change, but if the upgrade changes the unit combat type the cost is doubled, so with the base 33% discount from standard BtS, this means upgrading to a different unitcombat costs about 60% more then a stock BtS upgraded, it's intentional.

As for stables, not sure about that, I'll have to think on it, there really isn't a good way to deal with that.
 
Good enough, but why Cav? Why not have Pathfinders obsolete and upgrade with Special Forces? The promotion path seems more simpatico between the two.
 
Good enough, but why Cav? Why not have Pathfinders obsolete and upgrade with Special Forces? The promotion path seems more simpatico between the two.

Dont know the real reasons why phungus has it like this but:

1) there is a big time and technology gap between the 2 units.

2) Spec Ops is already really powerful

3) Who wants medic Spec Ops. They need to be out there killing stuff.:lol:

4) Making them upgrade to Cav, makes them not a dead unit for a long time. True they are used as medics alot. But medics are boring one trick ponies, albiet useful ponies. There are lots more fun things to do like cavalry charges. And with red cross you can have oodles of medic 1 guys.

5) I do agree with you on pathfinders upgrade seems a little off. Maybe letting them also upgrade to rifles or infantry???
 
Actually, I've thought the SF unit to be totally out of proportion to RL anyway. Maybe the current SF could be renamed as Ranger, and the Pathfinder upgrade to some lower strength new SF unit? Just seems weird that SF takes the place of the Para Division; an 18 man A team compared to 10,000 just doesn't stack. Frankly, the Paratroop shouldn't obsolete and the SF should be somethng different; some sort of low strength Spy/Pathfinder/Paratroop hybrid.
 
I actually think having paratroopers not obsolete, but still be able to upgrade to SF would be a good thing. Afterall we still have regular ole paratroopers today. And having them still be available through the end game but could also be upgradeable to SF would be fairly realistic.

THey do seem out of proportion to RL. But the SF is a whole lot weaker strength wise compared to a paratrooper. But they are a niche unit. They are supposed to take out defenses like the trench and arty. So they have to have the strength they do to take them out and not be totally useless otherwise.
 
If paratroopers were to be available in the late game, then the game would need a more modern version because otherwise they can't compete (in strength) anymore. I guess that the special forces in LOR represent multiple real life units like special forces and modern paratroopers working in unison to accomplish a goal. However, it's a bit hard to imagine a unit with such high striking strength remain undetectable by almost every enemy unit.
 
Some countries use massive, massive amounts of what (by definition) consist of Special Forces. As in, damn near half of their military consists of guerrilla warfare (invisible) conducting paratroopers. To the point that it's really their MAIN threat, alongside artillery.
 
Some countries use massive, massive amounts of what (by definition) consist of Special Forces. As in, damn near half of their military consists of guerrilla warfare (invisible) conducting paratroopers. To the point that it's really their MAIN threat, alongside artillery.

Do they wear cloaking armour like in the movie Predator?
 
Do they wear cloaking armour like in the movie Predator?

No, but they will wear matching uniforms to the country they invade. Or civilian clothes. I would imagine it is pretty hard to notice the difference between a North Korean SF unit wearing South Korean uniforms, and a South Korean unit wearing South Korean uniforms.

EDIT- Don't get me wrong, conventionally, unconventional forces are small units who stir up trouble behind the lines to weaken the front lines; but some countries just take that concept to a much larger scale. The only real gripe I have for the SF unit isn't the strength, it's the fact you can upgrade another unit INTO an SF unit. It takes 8 weeks to train an infantryman, and the majority of applicants make it through. It takes 2+ years to train a SOF soldier, and the majority of applicants are weeded out. That's the only reason that, proportionally, there are so few SOF in most militaries.

I'm just saying that there are, in fact, SOF units in existence who are intended to be able to fight on-par with a conventional force.
 
No, but they will wear matching uniforms to the country they invade. Or civilian clothes. I would imagine it is pretty hard to notice the difference between a North Korean SF unit wearing South Korean uniforms, and a South Korean unit wearing South Korean uniforms.

EDIT- Don't get me wrong, conventionally, unconventional forces are small units who stir up trouble behind the lines to weaken the front lines; but some countries just take that concept to a much larger scale. The only real gripe I have for the SF unit isn't the strength, it's the fact you can upgrade another unit INTO an SF unit. It takes 8 weeks to train an infantryman, and the majority of applicants make it through. It takes 2+ years to train a SOF soldier, and the majority of applicants are weeded out. That's the only reason that, proportionally, there are so few SOF in most militaries.

I'm just saying that there are, in fact, SOF units in existence who are intended to be able to fight on-par with a conventional force.

If the North Korean special forces have the same training and selection criteria as the small groups of special forces in western countries and still half of their larg military consists of these forces then their country must consist of super men. :eek:

;)

You're using 2 different definitions of special forces.
 
Finished the game I was playing (Cheese Diplo Win in 1812); didn't get far enough to check on the Aquaculture-Whale Boats thing.

I also noticed that Mot Inf (and damn that's a BIG model :lol:) upgraded to Tanks - is this intentional? It would seem the progression would go Rifles - Infantry - Motorized - Mechanized. Why Tanks?

Oh, and Achilles, I mentioned it before, but not sure if you saw it, great job on the art. The Barbary Corsair in particular is really cool. :goodjob:
 
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