How to counter coups?

AFAIK, only steal techs and defending against steals levels up your spy. CS shenanigans do not, this includes rigging elections.

Now the proposed patched will allow us to defend against coups. But nothing there says it will always be successful, only that you get about 2x more success rate couping a CS without a defending spy.

So a number of possibilities here. They upped the success rate of couping an undefended CS, they reduced the success rate of couping a CS with a defending spy, or they did a bit of both. Either way this is a much welcome change.

Also note the reduced coup frequency in the patch notes preview.

I am not so sure if it is a good change if they didn't increase the ability to counter coups with spies you basicly have no counter against it and you constantly get couped.


And I know you can only promoted by stealing techs or defending against it
My question was?

Will a high promoted spy in a city state have a higher change of countering a coup then a low ranked spy or is it the same?
 
Coups right now are broken, and this fact only gets further exasperated on high diff. The patch is slated to fix them, but right now- the best option is to actually turn off espionage.

Having super high influence --does not-- help, in fact it makes things worse, because the inevitable coup they will launch will just give them your high influence and make the gap even worse.

Last night... Lisbon couped 5 times in 15 turns... Tyre couped 3 times, Hong Kong couped twice...
all in 15 turns, all by one civ (not england). Oh- all these CS had my special agents in them. Yeah.... broken...
If I had more time before class I would crank out the statistical probability of this actually happening had I attempted it, but I can confidently say the time it would take to hit those numbers would be never-oclock.


Suffice to say, I'll be turning espionage off till they fix it. I keep giving it(espionage) another chance so I can play the game "as intended" and I keep getting slapped for it.
 
Coups right now are broken, and this fact only gets further exasperated on high diff. The patch is slated to fix them, but right now- the best option is to actually turn off espionage.

Having super high influence --does not-- help, in fact it makes things worse, because the inevitable coup they will launch will just give them your high influence and make the gap even worse.

Last night... Lisbon couped 5 times in 15 turns... Tyre couped 3 times, Hong Kong couped twice...
all in 15 turns, all by one civ (not england). Oh- all these CS had my special agents in them. Yeah.... broken...
If I had more time before class I would crank out the statistical probability of this actually happening had I attempted it, but I can confidently say the time it would take to hit those numbers would be never-oclock.


Suffice to say, I'll be turning espionage off till they fix it. I keep giving it(espionage) another chance so I can play the game "as intended" and I keep getting slapped for it.

I completly agree with you. THe fact that high ranked spies in city states can't counter coups is completly broken in my opinion There is basicly no option to counter it. While tech stealing has counter options

I olso turn of espionage because its a broken game mechanic however the intrigue is interesting But I usaly quit games when I decide to enable espionage.. Because of the broken mechanics.


I hope firaxis reads this topic and you're comment So they change this in the upcoming patch
 
I completly agree with you. THe fact that high ranked spies in city states can't counter coups is completly broken in my opinion There is basicly no option to counter it. While tech stealing has counter options

I olso turn of espionage because its a broken game mechanic however the intrigue is interesting But I usaly quit games when I decide to enable espionage.. Because of the broken mechanics.


I hope firaxis reads this topic and you're comment So they change this in the upcoming patch

Did you completely miss the patch notes I quoted or are you just like this when you post? It's really irritating.


Code:
Corrected an issue that caused the AI to attempt coups too often, when chances of success were too low. 
Also implemented a new factor: Attempting a coup in a location where there is no defending spy (the current ally does not have a spy there) is >=2x as likely to work as it would if there was a spy there.



RE: Spy ranks affecting CS missions, I was wrong, they have an effect.

From G&K Guide
You can only carry out a coup if you are within 50 influence of the incumbent city state ally. The improved city state interface in Gods & Kings allows you to see how far behind the leader you are by hovering over their icon. What is most important to note is that the closer your influence level is, the more likely you are to succeed; you will have a much greater chance of overcoming a 15 influence deficit than a 40 influence deficit. Additionally, the higher ranked your spy is, the greater the chances of success, whilst the higher ranked any defending spy is, the lower your chances. However, the highest your chances are going to be is 85%. So a coup is always a bit of a risk. If you are unsuccessful in a coup, your spy is killed.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=464730#Espionage

I can't find the XML expressing the formulas for espionage however, so I'm not sure to what level. MadDjinn confirms again From his comment in another thread, it seems like the difference is small currently, and it is good that they are boosting the influence of a defending spy.

As for Coups, defending spies, but not ranks also matter. The spy who has been there rigging elections longest will 'win' the rigging if there are multiple spies trying to rig elections.

However, it is not very clear what happens the next round when all the spies have been there since turn 1 of the next election. From my experience, game counts based on turn # your spy was planted not election cycles, as I have not failed to rig elections after successfully rigging elections and leaving a spy in CS w/out moving them.
 
Did you completely miss the patch notes I quoted or are you just like this when you post? It's really irritating.

No nobody answered my question about if high defensive spies have mor change of countering coups


thats why I was still repeating it You answered it so thanxs
 
coups are probably the worst addition ever made to this game :p at least if theyre going to include coups, give control to the player to build spies rather than being given one spy per era, which is pretty limited in what you can do to defend against coups or do your own coups. if multiple civs are couping multiple city states of mine and i only have one spy, then there really isnt much i can do to defend against these coups. at least if i had the option to invest my resources into training more spies it would give the player an opportunity to make the choice of how important defending against coups was going to be.
 
^ It can be annoying, I mentioned this soon after release in my ideas/suggestions thread (link in my siggy)

They obviously heard the complaint and is reducing coup attemp frequency and making it easier to defend.

The interesting thing about the patch notes is that it makes a point to say that it will make the AI less likely to try a coup when chances of success are low

And I just finished a game where the AI failed coups on one of my CS, 4-5 times in a row and I didn't even have a defending spy there. Furthermore I saw tons of notifications of other AI civs failing to coup AI city states,

That really slowed him down and I was able to grab most of the CS in the world by the time I won by Spaceship.

I am wondering if the annoyance at coups is more the psychological impact of seeing notifications of attempted but failed coups, combined with a selective memory and perceptual bias, creating a bit of the old Tank v. Spearman issue from a purely probabilistic outcome where even though the odds may favour the human players, all we tend to notice are the times we fail (in this case when the AI succeeds in stealing the CS with a coup) But no one really notices all the times they fail.
 
I am wondering if the annoyance at coups is more the psychological impact of seeing notifications of attempted but failed coups, combined with a selective memory and perceptual bias, creating a bit of the old Tank v. Spearman issue from a purely probabilistic outcome where even though the odds may favour the human players, all we tend to notice are the times we fail (in this case when the AI succeeds in stealing the CS with a coup) But no one really notices all the times they fail.
It is true that AI will frequently fail at coups - which may be bad luck, or may be because he tries with very low CoS. However, I do think my loathing of coups is pretty substantiated. I don't particularly dislike the idea of being able to do coups in general, but the endless I-coup-you-and-you-coup-me-and then it all starts over again is just stupid.

Problem comes when you are pretty close in influence - say, if I have 100 points and he has 80. Then he coups me and get the difference (20) and I lose the same amount if I'm not mistaken so I'm now at 80 and he's at 100 (right?). That leaves me either the choise of buying him out or couping him back if I have my own spy in town. If I coup him, we go back to me being 100 and him being 80. If I buy him out, I can throw in 500 gold and perhaps gain 40 points - which will bring me up to 120 and him still being at 100, which means exactly status quo of original situation. He can then coup me next turn again.

So bottom line, unless I can throw in several thousand gold to bring me up to >100+ compared to him, there's not a single thing I can do about it except for endless coups until one of us get a bad roll. That just seems stupid. So I really think there needs to be a cooldown between how often you can perform a coup, and having your own spy in the CS should give you a chance of catching the enemy spy when at work.
 
It is true that AI will frequently fail at coups - which may be bad luck, or may be because he tries with very low CoS. However, I do think my loathing of coups is pretty substantiated. I don't particularly dislike the idea of being able to do coups in general, but the endless I-coup-you-and-you-coup-me-and then it all starts over again is just stupid.

Problem comes when you are pretty close in influence - say, if I have 100 points and he has 80. Then he coups me and get the difference (20) and I lose the same amount if I'm not mistaken so I'm not at 80 and he's at 100 (right?). That leaves me either the choise of buying him out or couping him back if I have my own spy in town. If I coup him, we go back to me being 100 and him being 80. If I buy him out, I can throw in 500 gold and perhaps gain 40 points - which will bring me up to 120 and him still being at 100, which means exactly status quo of original situation. He can then coup me next turn again.

So bottom line, unless I can throw in several thousand gold to bring me up to >100+ compared to him, there's not a single thing I can do about it except for endless coups until one of us get a bad roll. That just seems stupid. So I really think there needs to be a cooldown between how often you can perform a coup, and having your own spy in the CS should give you a chance of catching the enemy spy when at work.

the coup spam can become ridiculous at times. i remember this one game i played on deity and i was a middling civ and there were two very powerful civs and every single turn without fail the civ whose turn would come first would coup/buy every single citystate in the game and then the other civ whose turn came next would do the exact same thing, so that the civ whose turn came second would always end up with all the citystates on their side just by virtue of having their turn come second. this went on for what felt like hundreds of turns until finally someone got a cultural victory.
 
I am wondering if the annoyance at coups is more the psychological impact of seeing notifications of attempted but failed coups, combined with a selective memory and perceptual bias, creating a bit of the old Tank v. Spearman issue from a purely probabilistic outcome where even though the odds may favour the human players, all we tend to notice are the times we fail (in this case when the AI succeeds in stealing the CS with a coup) But no one really notices all the times they fail.

I thinx most people are anoyed that there is no cool down period and you can just constantly coup.. :rolleyes:


Olso the AI doesn't allway fail I've seen them succeed even when I had a high ranked spy in the city state. Thats my biggest problem of the coups defensive spies don't have a huge effect of countering coups like they do with tech steeling


every single time I just raged quit the game . But it will be fixed in patch hopefully if not I just turn off espionage
 
Cooldown = killed spy when coups fail. But yeah I see your point. It can be frustrating.

I suspect the problem with any cooldown though is this.

You have CS, AI successfully coups. Cooldown kicks in. You have to wait X turns until the next coup. meanwhile your empire could be spiralling into unhappines because you were relying on the lux.

You then come on Civfanatics to complain that not only did you lose the CS, you had to wait X turns until you can get it back and you have cash to buy up to 85% ready and waiting!. And don't tell me this isn't true.

Can't please everyone. My point about Coups being Civ5's case of Tank v Spearman stands. :)
 
You have CS, AI successfully coups. Cooldown kicks in. You have to wait X turns until the next coup. meanwhile your empire could be spiralling into unhappines because you were relying on the lux.
That is true, but cooldown will also mean you can buy out the CS to regain benefits and move in a spy of your own to counter further coups. Of course, if you don't have the money to buy it out, you'll lose it, but that's how the game is.
 
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