The Sinister Scheme of Dr. Fu Manchu

The Worker was involved with chopping out The Oracle.

I believe the thinking was that we were going to attack the Korean Hindu Holy City and the Korean Capital with Horse Archers (that ignore Protective Drill promotions). There was some debate as to whether this would be better done with Hwachas, but we've gone with the horsies.

At this point we were discussing options for The Oracle, but Alphabet seems a popular option.

We can also consider the value of whipping out some Granaries as a precursor to whipping out a Horse Archer invasion force.

I'd be happy for the rest of the roster (esp. woopdeedoo and FiveRings) to confirm or amend this thinking and comment on lymond's proposals. :)

Fine with me.

@ Lymond:
All wrokers are where there was something to chop to speed up the Oracle.
The monument in Horse has been agreed as first build, the investment in a monument in BoS was a mistake, indeed, should have been in a granary.
BoS is underdeveloped as there was a Barb archer to NW and no fog-busted land to NW, W, or SW (no anticipation of AIs borders to shield us from Barbs), so chariot (or 3 warriors in another scenario) was the agreed priority production there.
Arguably, it could have been better to build infrastructure in Frown despite the Barb Warrior in its vicinity (killed a couple of turns ago), but except for the glimpse of some American borders to the NE of it, nothing very much assured of no additional barbs around.
 
I think we may want to consider MC as out free tech. Forges will help our production but I guess we need to check health as well. All in all, I trust you will do what is best :D
 
MC has merit, but doesn't do much for us in the short term and we don't currently have any coast for a shot at TC.

It's good yall got the Oracle, but I would not sacrifice the development of new cities to focus all workers on chopping it out. 1 or 2 workers would have sufficed.

I'm going to play shortly to get this thing going. I'm going to take Alpha. One good thing about Alpha, is we may be able to cause some mischief by bribing AIs into war or stopping trades.

Man, I just hate the basic Warlords AI. If we do Warlords again, which I hope we don't, we should at least use the HOF mod for Warlords. It does add some to the UI. FR you need to get BTS working, man. Show some Bulgarian spirit like your wrestlers :)
 
Okay, turnset played:

Oracle finished and took Alpha. I was judicious about it but traded for most backfill techs. Waited a couple of turns, and then via the diplo screens I figured out that Church was close to Alpha, so I trade for Poly/Sailing (only thing he had other than IW). Then traded for IW with his friend Roosy for a bunch of small techs. Got Mono from Gandhi for IW and begged Archery from him, which is ok with Gandhi.

Finished Maths, put a turn into Monarchy, and started Construction. Reason I put a turn into Mon is that Wang has the tech and I think we should switch to Hindu, trade for Mon, and switch to HR and Mono. (edit: More explanation of on Hindu. 1) 2 AIs are in the religion 2) Gandhi is Bud but he's a pushover 3) Church just went Conf but he may be our target 4) most cities are Hindu I believe 5) other AIs not in a religion - Stalin and Roos aren't big on it anyway, especially Stalin)

Whip granaries at key points to get good OF into barracks in cities. That horse city already has a gran and barrack and started a stable which can be whipped soon.

Our cap is small. The reason for this is that our empire was in poor shape and we needed some junk like more workers. Whipped a worker into the library which is now complete. City can just grow for now.

Once we finish barracks and stables we can start some mass HA production. Church might be a good target as he might not have metals yet. We can expand now through warfare and have enough cities to do it.

Wang has Mon and Church got CoL. Otherwise, we are doing nicely on the tech front. Our empire though is still in bad shape but getting better now with granaries.


Oh... didn't realize that city just east of the cap did not have a unit in it. It just went into unhappiness the turn after the granary whip, which finished the barracks in 1 turn. I would have held the chariot back if I knew this. OR I would not have deleted one of the scouting warriors that we really didn't need scouting. You only need one scouting unit early. You pay for each unit outside your borders.
 

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What is it about the SG's I've been in lately? We're always last in population! ;)

Thanks for the turnset and the report. Very, very nice work on the trade front. :goodjob:

Yeah ... I can see Hindu - Organised Religion too.

So, build Stables and Horse Archers from here? Try to 2-pop whip efficiently.

Theory on the Capital; Manchu's Snarl? Concentrate on Cottages or use whip liberally (and if so, get a Granary)?
 
Man, I just hate the basic Warlords AI. If we do Warlords again, which I hope we don't, we should at least use the HOF mod for Warlords. It does add some to the UI. FR you need to get BTS working, man. Show some Bulgarian spirit like your wrestlers :)

What is it with the WL? I think I saw you play the Vanilla;)

I even bought a second copy of the Complete in order to get back to BtS but couldn't delete the hidden files after reinstalling, it seems. I have been advised to redegit, but am still chickening it out...:blush:
 
Okay, turnset played:

Oracle finished and took Alpha. I was judicious about it but traded for most backfill techs. Waited a couple of turns, and then via the diplo screens I figured out that Church was close to Alpha, so I trade for Poly/Sailing (only thing he had other than IW). Then traded for IW with his friend Roosy for a bunch of small techs. Got Mono from Gandhi for IW and begged Archery from him, which is ok with Gandhi.

Finished Maths, put a turn into Monarchy, and started Construction. Reason I put a turn into Mon is that Wang has the tech and I think we should switch to Hindu, trade for Mon, and switch to HR and Mono. (edit: More explanation of on Hindu. 1) 2 AIs are in the religion 2) Gandhi is Bud but he's a pushover 3) Church just went Conf but he may be our target 4) most cities are Hindu I believe 5) other AIs not in a religion - Stalin and Roos aren't big on it anyway, especially Stalin)

Whip granaries at key points to get good OF into barracks in cities. That horse city already has a gran and barrack and started a stable which can be whipped soon.

Our cap is small. The reason for this is that our empire was in poor shape and we needed some junk like more workers. Whipped a worker into the library which is now complete. City can just grow for now.

Once we finish barracks and stables we can start some mass HA production. Church might be a good target as he might not have metals yet. We can expand now through warfare and have enough cities to do it.

Wang has Mon and Church got CoL. Otherwise, we are doing nicely on the tech front. Our empire though is still in bad shape but getting better now with granaries.


Oh... didn't realize that city just east of the cap did not have a unit in it. It just went into unhappiness the turn after the granary whip, which finished the barracks in 1 turn. I would have held the chariot back if I knew this. OR I would not have deleted one of the scouting warriors that we really didn't need scouting. You only need one scouting unit early. You pay for each unit outside your borders.

I can't look at the save right now but would like to ask a few things that might help me improve - it's a tutorial game, Cam, right?! Of course, you can take your time answering, if at all, L! But thanks for getting it go, first!!

1. How you find out the critical points for getting max OF?
2. Is the 1 turn invested in Monarchy just to sweeten the trade, or there is another reason, too?
3. Why are we not too worried about buying some not priority techs - like sailing and lowering the chances of later trades we might need?
4. Why are we going Construction and not Currency, eg (I assume we have got the HBR, right?!) except that the hwachas might come in handy...some time later?
5. By HR+Mono you mean HR+OR, right (thanks for the hint, Cam! I just wanted to make sure I understand correctly the plans...)
6. And how, for goodness, did you figure out that Churchill is close to ALPH?
@ Cam:
Can I replay turnsets done by myself and the better players - maybe somewhat later to avoid any unwanted additional info coming our way - to see potential ways to improve?
 
1. How you find out the critical points for getting max OF?

Well, it does take some practice. The BUG mod for BTS helps tremendously with all this as it does the calcs for you. In this case, it's a matter of taking the standard amount of hammers for a whipped citizen (30h on normal) plus whatever amount of hammers has been invested into a current build plus total hammers needed for a particular build.

A good easy way to practice this is 2 pop Axeman whips. Axes are 35 hammers, so you can only invest a couple of hammers into an Axe build before a 2pop whip goes to a 1 pop whip. try it out in a test game

2. Is the 1 turn invested in Monarchy just to sweeten the trade, or there is another reason, too?

Pretty much. I didn't have to do it but we really need Monarchy and I want to make sure we can get a good deal from Wang, if we switch to Hindu..

3. Why are we not too worried about buying some not priority techs - like sailing and lowering the chances of later trades we might need?

Well, you bring up a good point. However, I don't really worry about it much on this level since it is so easy. We should blow the AIs away in tech once we get over the initial hump.

4. Why are we going Construction and not Currency, eg (I assume we have got the HBR, right?!) except that the hwachas might come in handy...some time later?

I don't know. I thought folks had discussed getting Constr for hwachas, although they don't marry well with a HA attack. Currency is a good tech to get as early as you can, in fact, I think it is the most important tech in the game.

5. By HR+Mono you mean HR+OR, right (thanks for the hint, Cam! I just wanted to make sure I understand correctly the plans...)

exactly....kinda like saying we need to switch to Monarchy + OR :D

6. And how, for goodness, did you figure out that Churchill is close to ALPH?

Pretty easy really. Just check the trade possibilities each turn. 1 turn he will give me IW, next turn he won't. It means he's teching Alpha. Much easier to detect this once you have currency.
 
3. Why are we not too worried about buying some not priority techs - like sailing and lowering the chances of later trades we might need?

As per my overview of our rivals, only Stalin and Mao are difficult traders (unlike our 'Sword of Osman' game where just about everyone either disliked us or hit WFYABTA very early on).

Personally I don't generally trade for cheap, low priority tech's when playing solo, but in cases like this where; Roosevelt, Churchill, and Gandhi all have very high 'no trade tech' limits, I'm not quite as concerned if other SG members want to pick up these technologies. I might be a bit sensitive on this if we had different rivals.

@ Cam:
Can I replay turnsets done by myself and the better players - maybe somewhat later to avoid any unwanted additional info coming our way - to see potential ways to improve?

Oh ... if you must. ;)
 
Well, it does take some practice. The BUG mod for BTS helps tremendously with all this as it does the calcs for you. In this case, it's a matter of taking the standard amount of hammers for a whipped citizen (30h on normal) plus whatever amount of hammers has been invested into a current build plus total hammers needed for a particular build.

A good easy way to practice this is 2 pop Axeman whips. Axes are 35 hammers, so you can only invest a couple of hammers into an Axe build before a 2pop whip goes to a 1 pop whip. try it out in a test game



Pretty much. I didn't have to do it but we really need Monarchy and I want to make sure we can get a good deal from Wang, if we switch to Hindu..



Well, you bring up a good point. However, I don't really worry about it much on this level since it is so easy. We should blow the AIs away in tech once we get over the initial hump.



I don't know. I thought folks had discussed getting Constr for hwachas, although they don't marry well with a HA attack. Currency is a good tech to get as early as you can, in fact, I think it is the most important tech in the game.



exactly....kinda like saying we need to switch to Monarchy + OR :D



Pretty easy really. Just check the trade possibilities each turn. 1 turn he will give me IW, next turn he won't. It means he's teching Alpha. Much easier to detect this once you have currency.

Thank you very much, indeed! I still don't get the logic of the last one, but maybe it's practice, pattern...

BTW, I had a curious case trying to get a double whip - for axes, with Cath - and couldn't manage it... maybe I need to try it again... I mean I know that I need to have a very low amount of hammers coming in the usual way - 2-3, I get the -2 pop, but also only 40 hammers as OF, not 60 ... so sad that I have deleted the game...
 
As per my overview of our rivals, only Stalin and Mao are difficult traders (unlike our 'Sword of Osman' game where just about everyone either disliked us or hit WFYABTA very early on).

I kinda thought that this might be part of the answer, as well as that we need to get as much of the outstanding techs that our enemy has before killing him ...:lol:
 
Thank you very much, indeed! I still don't get the logic of the last one, but maybe it's practice, pattern...

BTW, I had a curious case trying to get a double whip - for axes, with Cath - and couldn't manage it... maybe I need to try it again... I mean I know that I need to have a very low amount of hammers coming in the usual way - 2-3, I get the -2 pop, but also only 40 hammers as OF, not 60 ... so sad that I have deleted the game...

Not sure I totally follow what you are saying here. 3 hammers is too much on an axe. This is where you do the calc. Okay, so if your city is producing 3 base hammers per turn so that you put 3H into an Axe, that leaves just 2h + 30 from a citizen whip to make 35H for the Axe. You need to make it think it needs to use 2 citizens for the whip. Adjust tiles so that you are only getting 1h per turn for that first turn of an Axe build. 2h per turn is too much from a city for the axe. However, if you had the city producing 1h/turn, you could put 2turns into the Axe. In another words, if the base hammers/turn output of the city + what you've already put into it + 30 hammers from 1 citizen does not add up to the total hammers needed for a build, then city needs to whip 2 citizens to make up the difference. This serves 2 purposes from a players perspective a) it allows for more OF from a whip and you can often manipulate this better with a 2 pop whip b) 2 pop whip allows for more recovery time from a whip.

Now, where I'm confused is when you mention only getting 40 hammers OF from a 2 pop whip. That is a fantastic amount of OF actually, and really I don't think it's possible to get that much OF from a 2 pop whip until you have multipliers in places like OR and Forges. So basically, I don't know what the problem is here other than maybe unreasonable expectations on OF.


edit: hmmmmm.....I'm rereading your post and I wonder if there is some confusion here about what the OF is. 2 whipped citizens do equate to 60hammers, but that doesn't mean you get 60h or even 40h of overflow. Those hammers first go completing whatever build that you just whipped. What's left is OF minus any penalties (such as whipping something on 1st turn of build) plus modifiers (forges/OR/Police State etc)
 
My understanding is that 2:hammers: base production is fine (??): 2:hammers: x2 turns + 30:hammers: for one citizen whip < 35:hammers: therefore you get the second citizen to make up the deficit + benefit of overflow.

Overflow can't be more than one citizen's :hammers:, and therefore it's also my understanding that a multiplier effect (e.g. Forge, Organised Religion) would be required to get overflow up to 40:hammers:+.
 
you can't get more then 29 base hammers as overflow from whipping citizen.

What you see in some cases for absurd numbers is done with multipliers. For example building Pyramids with stone, you whip worker with 29H OF you get next turn 58 hammers into Mids. If you were Industrious it would be even more.

The same for Libraries with Creative, Granaries with Expansive, to say the most useful OF buildings.

I am never sure how the OF works with forge (if the OF hammers get multiplied by the 1.25).
One thing worth of note is that for example max worker overflow happens when you are 29/60 hammers on a worker.

It typically happens around 3T to finish worker in typical early game city from my experience and here comes the catch if you're like me and don't like to MM every city every turn and orientate himself from city details (option in options) which states the number of turns to finish build... with forge you are much sooner to the 29/60 mark!
(btw one helpful thing if you don't run BUG mode to orientate yourself with OF hammers is by the worker whipping how many hammers you already invested into worker you get as OF since worker has 60H cost = 2 pop whip)

The example with axes is similar, the breaking point is 4/35 for max OF. at 5/35 the game decides you whip only for 1 citizen since it's exactly the number of citizens you need to finish the build.

The hammer production from tiles is still applied!
So if you whip the build it's worth your time to MM tiles for working hammers, especially when whipping worker, since while you build worker you can't get any surplus food to food bin and you waste production (food can't overflow).

if you whip from normal unit you can get food into bin so then it's a bit unclear what is best at the time (depends probably if you want the hammer production into the OF next turn or not).
Typically I would say if you are 1T from growth after whip, MM tiles so you still grow next turn, but maximize hammers.

Worth the notion is that granary basically "multiplies" the effectiveness of whipping by 2, but not in the way you would get the hammers x 2, but with granary you grow to your old size 2x the quicker.
Best whip cycle is 4->2->4, there you get max food->hammer conversion.
 
I had a look at the save and propose the following:

Manchu: Let grow (1t) then whip stable. Once done --> HA*

BoS: Get workers to improve. Build infra (stables, etc) as required.

V Frown: Improve and start pumping HAs. Send Warrior to Black horse.

Black horse: Build stables and infra and get HAs out when ready.

One thing that I want to ask the roster. I personally prefer to work with 3~4 teams of 2 workers to get improvements out. I find it works better, for me. We currently have 4 workers, is it ok if I get 2 more out and get 3 teams of 2 improving our cities land?

With regard to tech, I think it's not a bad idea to keep the slider at 0 for my TS so we can get some coin together. Let me know if that is cool. Other wise I can get the research up after 5 or so turns.

With regards the war effort, perhaps we should consider 2 SoDs. One with Hwatchas and Axes and another with HAs. This is just a thought, though. I'd like to see HA's in action but I am also a firm believer in having mixed units in the offensive. Since we don't want to lose the 2movement, I would consider an additional mixed stack.

[EDIT] I'm an idiot. Forgot we don't have metal and Constr is still being researched at 0%. To that end, forget my ramblings about a second stack. [/EDIT]
 
Not sure I totally follow what you are saying here. 3 hammers is too much on an axe. This is where you do the calc. Okay, so if your city is producing 3 base hammers per turn so that you put 3H into an Axe, that leaves just 2h + 30 from a citizen whip to make 35H for the Axe. You need to make it think it needs to use 2 citizens for the whip. Adjust tiles so that you are only getting 1h per turn for that first turn of an Axe build. 2h per turn is too much from a city for the axe. However, if you had the city producing 1h/turn, you could put 2turns into the Axe. In another words, if the base hammers/turn output of the city + what you've already put into it + 30 hammers from 1 citizen does not add up to the total hammers needed for a build, then city needs to whip 2 citizens to make up the difference. This serves 2 purposes from a players perspective a) it allows for more OF from a whip and you can often manipulate this better with a 2 pop whip b) 2 pop whip allows for more recovery time from a whip.

Now, where I'm confused is when you mention only getting 40 hammers OF from a 2 pop whip. That is a fantastic amount of OF actually, and really I don't think it's possible to get that much OF from a 2 pop whip until you have multipliers in places like OR and Forges. So basically, I don't know what the problem is here other than maybe unreasonable expectations on OF.


edit: hmmmmm.....I'm rereading your post and I wonder if there is some confusion here about what the OF is. 2 whipped citizens do equate to 60hammers, but that doesn't mean you get 60h or even 40h of overflow. Those hammers first go completing whatever build that you just whipped. What's left is OF minus any penalties (such as whipping something on 1st turn of build) plus modifiers (forges/OR/Police State etc)


I guess it's my misusing the word OF: what I meant was that I's getting about 40 hammers total after hitting the "whip"-button despite the -2pop. Anyway, it was some time ago, and I can't check the file, so better leave it as it is. The important thing is that now I understand the logic - thank you!! - and will be able to give it another try and see how it works. Sorry for the confusion! I didn't question the idea and procedure itself, as I have seen it done on Cam's video on this type of whipping. I tried it almost immedeately thereafter in a game of mine, but, as I said, I wasn't able to make it work. Maybe this time I'll be more skillful...
 
you can't get more then 29 base hammers as overflow from whipping citizen.

What you see in some cases for absurd numbers is done with multipliers. For example building Pyramids with stone, you whip worker with 29H OF you get next turn 58 hammers into Mids. If you were Industrious it would be even more.

The same for Libraries with Creative, Granaries with Expansive, to say the most useful OF buildings.

I am never sure how the OF works with forge (if the OF hammers get multiplied by the 1.25).
One thing worth of note is that for example max worker overflow happens when you are 29/60 hammers on a worker.

It typically happens around 3T to finish worker in typical early game city from my experience and here comes the catch if you're like me and don't like to MM every city every turn and orientate himself from city details (option in options) which states the number of turns to finish build... with forge you are much sooner to the 29/60 mark!
(btw one helpful thing if you don't run BUG mode to orientate yourself with OF hammers is by the worker whipping how many hammers you already invested into worker you get as OF since worker has 60H cost = 2 pop whip)

The example with axes is similar, the breaking point is 4/35 for max OF. at 5/35 the game decides you whip only for 1 citizen since it's exactly the number of citizens you need to finish the build.

The hammer production from tiles is still applied!
So if you whip the build it's worth your time to MM tiles for working hammers, especially when whipping worker, since while you build worker you can't get any surplus food to food bin and you waste production (food can't overflow).

if you whip from normal unit you can get food into bin so then it's a bit unclear what is best at the time (depends probably if you want the hammer production into the OF next turn or not).
Typically I would say if you are 1T from growth after whip, MM tiles so you still grow next turn, but maximize hammers.

Worth the notion is that granary basically "multiplies" the effectiveness of whipping by 2, but not in the way you would get the hammers x 2, but with granary you grow to your old size 2x the quicker.
Best whip cycle is 4->2->4, there you get max food->hammer conversion.

VERY insightful, thanks, V!! I didn't quite understand the very last sentence - the "4->2>4" part, so if, and when, you have the time to elaborate it a bit, it would be most appreciated!
 
the numbers mean size of city (aka number of citizens), so whips from size 4 for 2 population points to size 2 and regrow back to size 4 gets best hammers return from all options.

I didn't do the calculations myself, but others did and said so... sooo I just trust them ;-).

granted some things can't be whipped in reasonable time for 2 population points, but at this phase of game maximizing outputs in particular cities is more for HoF players then for poor peops like me.

The early whip maximizing otoh is very important (you work with less cities) so it's worth remembering this calculations for the very few types of situations.

One thing that isn't (imo) implied clearly with the whip is that the saying about whips converting food to hammers can be seen in 2 different lights.
1) you get for population hammers and for getting population you need the food (thus the emphasis on high food cities and food being prioritized)

2) building settlers and workers and whipping THIS units into buildings brings you bigger hammers (except for situations with abundant mines and low food) then just plainly building buildings and whipping them, since all your surplus food (which is in early game abundant if you place your cities right) is used as hammers for producing settlers and workers.

there is one danger with OFing workers+settlers into wonders, especially in case of GLH which doesn't get any multipliers, that usually in your cap you should have enough pop and enough mines to get the GLH quicker without whipping and not losing the wonder (I had games where I went for OFing settlers+workers into GLH and losing that wonder, since the regrowth into mines was too long).

For this case is better to build settler before starting on GLH asap though, so you can run at least 1 city for supporting rex.

Btw Oracle usually is in the same boat since going for masonry for improving marble usually ends delaying you more then just going straight for Oracle and building it on mines + forests. It is never worth the wait for connecting marble, especially if you have marble in 2nd city.
Having marble in cap's BFC especially if you settle on it can be different beast and can be argued if masonry is worth it or not.
 
I had a look at the save and propose the following:

Manchu: Let grow (1t) then whip stable. Once done --> HA*

BoS: Get workers to improve. Build infra (stables, etc) as required.

V Frown: Improve and start pumping HAs. Send Warrior to Black horse.

Black horse: Build stables and infra and get HAs out when ready.

One thing that I want to ask the roster. I personally prefer to work with 3~4 teams of 2 workers to get improvements out. I find it works better, for me. We currently have 4 workers, is it ok if I get 2 more out and get 3 teams of 2 improving our cities land?

With regard to tech, I think it's not a bad idea to keep the slider at 0 for my TS so we can get some coin together. Let me know if that is cool. Other wise I can get the research up after 5 or so turns.

With regards the war effort, perhaps we should consider 2 SoDs. One with Hwatchas and Axes and another with HAs. This is just a thought, though. I'd like to see HA's in action but I am also a firm believer in having mixed units in the offensive. Since we don't want to lose the 2movement, I would consider an additional mixed stack.

[EDIT] I'm an idiot. Forgot we don't have metal and Constr is still being researched at 0%. To that end, forget my ramblings about a second stack. [/EDIT]

I am not sure about whether it's a good idea timewise, so I just remind you about the barracks mentioned by L: they should provide additional exp to the HAs, too, so are worth considering, and we mightnot be THAT much pressed to go into HA production ASAP.

On grouping workers: fp cottaging takes 6 turns, chopping takes 3 turns, so in both cases 3-worker groups seem fine. On grass and plane, cottaging, pasturing, mining and - maybe, but I might not remember correctly - farming takes 4 turns, so a group of 3 workers is not the most efficient, a 2-worker group can do better. If you have enough of work for both types - by type, I admit - not the best word in this case - I mean, work assignments taking 6 and 4 turns each, it might be better to have 5 workers and use the best group for each of the two types of work.

So bad we couldn't train a medic-chariot or two on the Barb Archers!:(
 
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