C2C: Promotions

Dancing Hoskuld said:

There may be some in Modules/Resources/NewResource.

@FilochardI have not done any sea critter promotions since it will require a new combat class. Promotions are set by class and all wild animals have the same class at present.

Click to expand...

I think a sea animal class would be very useful for both that reason and possible "attack vs" situations.

@ls612

Here are more from Realism Invictus.

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Partisan I
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Combat I
Req Tech: Guerrilla Warfare
Unit Types: Use their unit types.
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Guerrilla Tactics that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Partisan II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Guerrilla Warfare
Unit Types: Use their unit types.
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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I will post more later.

@ls612

Here are more from Realism Invictus.

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Glorious I
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Combat I
Req Tech: Heraldry
Unit Types: Use their unit types.
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Imperial Glory that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Glorious II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Heraldry
Unit Types: Use their unit types.
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Motherland I
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Combat I
Req Tech: Nationalism
Unit Types: Leave off the Light Mounted since we don't have that unit type.
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Patriotism that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Motherland II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Nationalism
Unit Types: Leave off the Light Mounted since we don't have that unit type.
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Seamanship I
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Navigation I
Req Tech: Naval Warfare
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Ship Wrights that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Seamanship II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Naval Warfare
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Pirate I
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Navigation I
Req Tech: Piracy
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Coastal that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Pirate II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Piracy
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Also can you chnage Navigation I in C2C to require "Sailing" instead of "Seafaring" tech? Thanks!

Ok I think this will keep you busy for now.

@ls612

I think the Motherland I, II and III promotions need to be tweaked. Can you take out the Desert benefits and replace them with Bamboo benefits? Thanks.

I'm a touch annoyed with the current compare between the Forestry and Guerrilla promotion chains. At home we call them Forest Defense and Hill Defense and from their roots in Vanilla, they were always equivalent and comparable.

Now... don't get me wrong, I love the new added benefits on the Forestry line. But I feel that there should be some comparable bonuses on the Guerrilla chain to bring them back into complete balance with each other.

They've always been two sides of a similar minded coin so my suggestion would be to buff up the Guerrilla line a bit to reflect the same sort of thinking. Currently, we have Forestry representing a great chain for more than just 'Forest Defense'. In addition to the aforementioned vanilla benefit, we have also added:

• Minor First Strike enhancements
• Supplementary Anti-Animal benefits
• Supportive Healing bonuses (and being as it stacks with the healer lines is VERY beneficial but only accessed at the most extreme level of the chain.)

Now... all of these make sense I think so what I propose is to add to the Guerrilla line the following balance factors:

• Extend the same benefits to Mountain combat. - balances to Forest's extensive application including jungles.
• Increased defense when fortified outside a city(+5% for each level on the chain) - balance against the first strike benefits on Forestry.
• Supplementary Anti-Barbarian (non-animal) combat benefits. - Comparative to the anti-animal benefits of Forestry
• And add a Unit is Invisible when Fortified benefit at the third level of the chain to balance out with the healing benefits and add a cool feature for extremely experienced units.

This would help us to bring the two chains back in sync and would add to our super-coolness Some of this might take some advanced programming in the dll but wouldn't be requiring any real AI adjustments I think.

Just a proposition... what do y'all think?

@Thunderbrd

Could you write out how the new Guerrilla I, II and II stats would look?

I'll have to write down the current Forestry stats for the format when I'm in-game later but sure... expect that within the next 24 hrs then

ok... here goes:

Guerrilla I
+25% Hills Defense
+25% Peak Defense
+10% vs Non-Animal Barbarians

Guerrilla II
Double Movement in Hills
Double Movement in Peaks
+25% Hills Defense
+25% Peak Defense
+15% vs Non-Animal Barbarians

Guerrilla III
+50% Hills Attack
+50% Peak Attack
+20% vs Non-Animal Barbarians
+15% when Fortified outside a City
Invisible when Fortified outside a City

@ls612

Here are more from Realism Invictus.

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Raider I (Change name to "Thoroughbreds")
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Combat I
Req Tech: Horse Breeding
Unit Types: Only Mounted (Since We don't have Light Mounts)
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Attrition Tactics that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Partisan II and III (Change name to "Thoroughbreds")
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Horse Breeding
Unit Types: Only Mounted (Since We don't have Light Mounts)
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Fire I (I can't think of a better name. )
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Navigation I
Req Tech: Ancient Ballistics
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Greek Fire that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Fire II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Ancient Ballistics
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Marksmanship I
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Combat I
Req Tech: Mounted Archery
Unit Types: Archery
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Archery Training that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Marksmanship II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Mounted Archery
Unit Types: Archery
Stats: Use the stats they give.

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Ok I think that will keep ya busy.

Thunderbrd said:

ok... here goes:

Guerrilla I
+25% Hills Defense
+25% Peak Defense
+10% vs Non-Animal Barbarians

Guerrilla II
Double Movement in Hills
Double Movement in Peaks
+25% Hills Defense
+25% Peak Defense
+15% vs Non-Animal Barbarians

Guerrilla III
+50% Hills Attack
+50% Peak Attack
+20% vs Non-Animal Barbarians
+15% when Fortified outside a City
Invisible when Fortified outside a City

Click to expand...

Looks good to me.

ls612 please make these changes (if possible).

I was thinking about promotions and the Property system. Specifically buildings auto built when you reach a specific threshold. If a building can give a free promotion that that means you could have both positive and negative promotions such as if Crime reached say +500 where Crime (Gangs) are enabled perhaps it could give your units a special promotion such as "Gangster".

Doesn't invisibility mean that the unit will not fight if a unit that cannot see it moves into the same square?

What about adding Mountaineering to the Guerrilla line. Sure they give bonuses now to peaks but still don't allow movement on them. That would/might reduce the need to have them invisible when fortified too as if there's a peak nearby the unit can move up onto that to rest/heal up.
Being invisible when fortified doesn't make sense to me, like xartah stated, as it won't defend. Units without invisibility would be defending instead and I might want my Guerrilla units to defend my Great General, my dog units, my workers, settlers, and so on.
If I'm invisible I might never want to take that promotion so I don't by mistake fortify it and lose a unit I really want to keep instead.

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

What about adding Mountaineering to the Guerrilla line. Sure they give bonuses now to peaks but still don't allow movement on them. That would/might reduce the need to have them invisible when fortified too as if there's a peak nearby the unit can move up onto that to rest/heal up.
Being invisible when fortified doesn't make sense to me, like xartah stated, as it won't defend. Units without invisibility would be defending instead and I might want my Guerrilla units to defend my Great General, my dog units, my workers, settlers, and so on.
If I'm invisible I might never want to take that promotion so I don't by mistake fortify it and lose a unit I really want to keep instead.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Free mountainering promotion at Guerilla III (in effect) would be overpowered - it would be FAR better than forestry III then. I like the idea, but I can't see a way to balance it - being able to cross mountain ranges early is just to huge, and very binary.

On the invisibility thing:
1) I don't think there is any way to implement it (currently)
2) It would indeed mean enemy units could move into the same tile
3) It would be a substantial enough chnage to significantly alter the strategy/tactics for such units which implies AI headaches or a lot of AI work (or just the AI falling relatively further behind in its use of units)

As an alternative how about giving Guerilla III extra sight range?

Koshling said:

Free mountainering promotion at Guerilla III (in effect) would be overpowered - it would be FAR better than forestry III then. I like the idea, but I can't see a way to balance it - being able to cross mountain ranges early is just to huge, and very binary.

On the invisibility thing:
1) I don't think there is any way to implement it (currently)
2) It would indeed mean enemy units could move into the same tile
3) It would be a substantial enough chnage to significantly alter the strategy/tactics for such units which implies AI headaches or a lot of AI work (or just the AI falling relatively further behind in its use of units)

As an alternative how about giving Guerilla III extra sight range?

Click to expand...

That would render the +sight promotion useless or OP together with Guerilla III as it would have a +2 sight then..?

I suggest GuerillaIII could give less maintenance (no penalty for being outside of own territory like other units - interesting promotion as in early game waging wars in other lands is very costly, maybe guerilla troops could help to ease that up a bit)
and it could also have a withdraval chance (5-15%) - think of the Cuban revolution, Che in bolivia, Vietcong etc. often they evaded contact and only ambushed from time to time.

What I really liked to see would be that guerilla-promoted units (maybe with GuerillaIV) would increase war wariness in the opponent civ, if defensive battles are won with them.

So if a normal unit of yours would defend and wins = war wariness increases by factor 1;
but if a GuerillaIV promoted unit defends and wins = war wariness increases by factor 2,5.

GuerillaV could be ambush tactics like +2 first strikes vs melee&gunpowder units as well as another 15-20% withdrawal chance perhaps and a little heals faster in hills bonus (+10%?).

How about an invisible when not adjacent effect much like the spiders had in FFH2? I thought about the problem with invisible when fortified later last night(though still think it would make for a good promotion along some lines like camo or something.)

DRJ: great ideas but imho they seem distinct enough to perhaps warrant an extending set of promos accessible once a unit has capped out on EITHER Forestry or Guerrilla.

Hydromancerx said:

@ls612

Fire I (I can't think of a better name. )
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Navigation I
Req Tech: Ancient Ballistics
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Note: They have also Greek Fire that has nothing. I just want to skip that one.

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Fire II and III
Graphic: Use their button/icon
Req Promotions: Use their Requirements
Req Tech: Ancient Ballistics
Unit Types: Wooden Ships
Stats: Use the stats they give.

Click to expand...

This seems like a promotion version of the Dromon, a unit I added last version. I think that maybe this one should be rethought/eliminated, as Greek Fire was very rare in history.

ls612 said:

This seems like a promotion version of the Dromon, a unit I added last version. I think that maybe this one should be rethought/eliminated, as Greek Fire was very rare in history.

Click to expand...

Yeah your probably right. Just skip that set.

I still think the Dromon fits best as a Byzantine UU; Cataphracts can be found all across Asia, while Greek fire was a closely guarded secret unique to the Byzantine's. Outside perhaps of Legionaries (I've often thought that a rename was in order for the Praetorians, with the "regular" units representing pre-Marian Roman military forces), I can't think of a military technology more historically "unique" than that; come to think of it, even the Legionaries had their imitators among some Near Eastern and North African kingdoms...

Praetyre said:

I still think the Dromon fits best as a Byzantine UU; Cataphracts can be found all across Asia, while Greek fire was a closely guarded secret unique to the Byzantine's. Outside perhaps of Legionaries (I've often thought that a rename was in order for the Praetorians, with the "regular" units representing pre-Marian Roman military forces), I can't think of a military technology more historically "unique" than that; come to think of it, even the Legionaries had their imitators among some Near Eastern and North African kingdoms...

Click to expand...

It was discussed before that the Sassanians culture would get the Cataphract as soon as the culture was made. However they are in the next 20 cultures to be made.