C2C: Promotions

Thunderbrd · Jul 2, 2014

Yudishtira said:
With great respect I still think the sledgehammer of removing them from the mod indefinitely is still a big step backwards. Pirate I is not particularly OP anyway, although II & III really are. And which other ones were OP?

I only became reliant on them (Pirate line) when I noticed all the AIs' ships had them and their Sloops of War were a class above my Frigates.

It was necessary to zero out the game balance on the current promos before re-introducing them. Sometimes a step forward may seem like a step back.

Hydromancerx said:
I am guessing that since you can get a Great Admiral at any time in the game it should not be a Ship/Boat. Right?

True. It would be attachable to ships and perhaps able (like the hunter) to be converted to superior units or (like the general) made into a naval command center. Those conversions could make them into new era-specific units but the core GP should be a dude.

darkedone02 · Jul 2, 2014

I'm a bit curious, would it make sense to add in a small promotion for medical units to increase a bit of the plot/city knowledge thanks to their knowledge of plants, herbs and the human body? As I don't know yet if we can actually build citizen units like teachers that help promote the increase of the education property, but it be nice to see something like this happen.

7/10/2014 edit:

One thing that I kinda dislike in the promotions is the sacrificial promotions that kills my units no matter what, the Fire ship promotions, the Air units kamakazi's, and any land units that could also have that promotion... I want a future custom game option that could disable all sacrificial promotion so my auto-promotions and cheats won't get that promotions on my units.

mart777 · Jun 3, 2015

Having revision like 8560, I noticed, Heroic II has no Golden Age trigger indicated.
Is it temporary or rather final due to too many GA periods triggered?

Thunderbrd · Jun 3, 2015

darkedone02 said:
I'm a bit curious, would it make sense to add in a small promotion for medical units to increase a bit of the plot/city knowledge thanks to their knowledge of plants, herbs and the human body? As I don't know yet if we can actually build citizen units like teachers that help promote the increase of the education property, but it be nice to see something like this happen.

7/10/2014 edit:

One thing that I kinda dislike in the promotions is the sacrificial promotions that kills my units no matter what, the Fire ship promotions, the Air units kamakazi's, and any land units that could also have that promotion... I want a future custom game option that could disable all sacrificial promotion so my auto-promotions and cheats won't get that promotions on my units.

1) Storyteller units have that. I do want to eventually see a 'Teacher' line. I can also see some offhanded promos for +1 education available for healers, maybe even for law enforcement (community outreach programs). But nothing very strong I'd hope.

2) Autopromote is highly not advised for that reason. Optioning them out may be a possible solution at some point but we've got folks trying hard to reduce the number of options lately.

Dancing Hoskuld · Jun 3, 2015

mart777 said:
Having revision like 8560, I noticed, Heroic II has no Golden Age trigger indicated.
Is it temporary or rather final due to too many GA periods triggered?

Currently it is final because of the number of golden ages.

I am not finding Golden Ages much use except for changing civics. Unlike in base BtS they don't have a significant effect on production or anything else.

Toffer90 · Jun 3, 2015

True that; i sometimes beeline for the wonder at stargazing to get 20% longer GA then, get myself the valley of kings for a free golden age, then I beeline for the wonder at calender to get an even 50% increase in GA, and to top it all off I use all my stored great peoples to start a golden age which on eternity gives me about 1000 turns of golden age. This, however, does give me a huge advantage. But without those wonders I would never use up a great person on a lousy golden age.

Harrier · Jun 3, 2015

Toffer90 said:
True that; i sometimes beeline for the wonder at stargazing to get 20% longer GA then, get myself the valley of kings for a free golden age, then I beeline for the wonder at calender to get an even 50% increase in GA, and to top it all off I use all my stored great peoples to start a golden age which on eternity gives me about 1000 turns of golden age. This, however, does give me a huge advantage. But without those wonders I would never use up a great person on a lousy golden age.

Achilles's heal. :eek:

They obviusley need to be dramatically reduced.

stachnie · Jun 4, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Currently it is final because of the number of golden ages.

If you had enough Heroic II units sent to barb hunting (or later: Hidden Nationality Heroic II sent to harrass AI) you could have a non-stop GA, especially on Eternity.

I am not finding Golden Ages much use except for changing civics. Unlike in base BtS they don't have a significant effect on production or anything else.

The other nice effect of GA's is Great People boost, especially for early civics slowing down GP rate like Caste System. Production and commerce boost is negligible.

S.

JosEPh_II · Jun 4, 2015

Toffer90 said:
True that; i sometimes beeline for the wonder at stargazing to get 20% longer GA then, get myself the valley of kings for a free golden age, then I beeline for the wonder at calender to get an even 50% increase in GA, and to top it all off I use all my stored great peoples to start a golden age which on eternity gives me about 1000 turns of golden age. This, however, does give me a huge advantage. But without those wonders I would never use up a great person on a lousy golden age.

I know that doing such things gives a thrill at 1st. But after awhile when you realize it's unfair because the AI can't see how to do this why keep doing it? And especially on a Gamespeed that is Soooo disproportional to the rest of the game play in the Mod. :eek:

I know DH does something similar, but doesn't that give you warning bells that your "view" of how the Mod plays is distorted? And on purpose to boot? Just sayin'.

JosEPh

Toffer90 · Jun 4, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
I know that doing such things gives a thrill at 1st. But after awhile when you realize it's unfair because the AI can't see how to do this why keep doing it? And especially on a Gamespeed that is Soooo disproportional to the rest of the game play in the Mod.

I know DH does something similar, but doesn't that give you warning bells that your "view" of how the Mod plays is distorted? And on purpose to boot? Just sayin'.

JosEPh

I only do this when I get a bad starting location like this:

I usually try to avoid doing anything the AI can't do.

JosEPh_II · Jun 4, 2015

Toffer90 said:
I only do this when I get a bad starting location like this:
View attachment 394853
I usually try to avoid doing anything the AI can't do.

Have you noticed that certain Leaders almost always end up in or near Tundra? Every time I play Deganawida or Sitting Bull I'm in the northern hemisphere and right next to or in tundra. When Degana should be forest and Sitting Bull plains. And I don't use a GEM map either, it's related directly to the Leader/Culture/Ethnicity.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld · Jun 4, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
I know that doing such things gives a thrill at 1st. But after awhile when you realize it's unfair because the AI can't see how to do this why keep doing it? And especially on a Gamespeed that is Soooo disproportional to the rest of the game play in the Mod.

I know DH does something similar, but doesn't that give you warning bells that your "view" of how the Mod plays is distorted? And on purpose to boot? Just sayin'.

JosEPh

Why can't the AI see how to do this. I was under the impression that there was a wonder in base BtS that only extended golden ages? It is a base BtS tag not a RoM/AND-C2C one.

JosEPh_II · Jun 4, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Why can't the AI see how to do this. I was under the impression that there was a wonder in base BtS that only extended golden ages? It is a base BtS tag not a RoM/AND-C2C one.

That maybe about vanilla BtS but was it changed during the RoM days? I don't know. If the AI can do it then good for it. I just know that I've never seen or noticed the AI with extended GAs like you 2 have said are possible.

JosEPh

Thunderbrd · Jun 5, 2015

Koshling's total rewrite may take that somewhat into consideration but not in the way a player who is beelining to persist a golden age forever would.

Thunderbrd · Jan 27, 2016

@DH: I think you did the mammoth hunter promos right? A few points:

1) You have no alpha channel on at least the first of the buttons.

2) The idea is COOL! Very much a matter of developing into the kinds of things such unitcombat categories allow. HOWEVER... it's too weak. By far. It cannot be selected with any comparable benefit. A promotion with a combat modifier would need to at least balance against combat I (10% general combat modifier). With a unitcombat specific modifier, you would usually do say, 15% at minimum. BUT, with such a very specific one with such a rare target, I strongly suggest a minimum of +20%. Maybe even +25 on both levels so that they can give a total of +50% if both are taken.

3) The coolest 'hidden' benefit of this promo would be to make Elephant units as a whole generally susceptible to being countered by hunters, even involving heavy duty combat units!

Bravo for fleshing out this concept!

Dancing Hoskuld · Jan 27, 2016

Thunderbrd said:
@DH: I think you did the mammoth hunter promos right? A few points:

1) You have no alpha channel on at least the first of the buttons.

2) The idea is COOL! Very much a matter of developing into the kinds of things such unitcombat categories allow. HOWEVER... it's too weak. By far. It cannot be selected with any comparable benefit. A promotion with a combat modifier would need to at least balance against combat I (10% general combat modifier). With a unitcombat specific modifier, you would usually do say, 15% at minimum. BUT, with such a very specific one with such a rare target, I strongly suggest a minimum of +20%. Maybe even +25 on both levels so that they can give a total of +50% if both are taken.

3) The coolest 'hidden' benefit of this promo would be to make Elephant units as a whole generally susceptible to being countered by hunters, even involving heavy duty combat units!

Bravo for fleshing out this concept!

1) Every time I try and add an alpha channel I get a "size mismatch" or some such saying one of the layers is not the same as the others. So now-a-days I just make some place holder buttons and hope Sparth or someone can fix them.

2) I was not going with these being able to be selected for buy using experience points or at least not the first one. It comes only from the Spearpoint burial building. It was not doing anything like what it said it was about. That building is rare. The second promotion may be available from exp not sure. It could be a valid one for combat promotions if you have the first and just beat a Mammoth or maybe Elephant.

As to the strength of the promo, I just plugged some numbers in. I'll adjust them. edit I think I will go with 10% for the first and free one with 30% for the second with it being available if you have the first.

Dancing Hoskuld · Jan 27, 2016

I have done something wrong with those promotions. I want it so you can only get the first from the building but if you can get the second via exp. What did I do wrong?

Thunderbrd · Jan 27, 2016

Dancing Hoskuld said:
1) Every time I try and add an alpha channel I get a "size mismatch" or some such saying one of the layers is not the same as the others. So now-a-days I just make some place holder buttons and hope Sparth or someone can fix them.

2) I was not going with these being able to be selected for buy using experience points or at least not the first one. It comes only from the Spearpoint burial building. It was not doing anything like what it said it was about. That building is rare. The second promotion may be available from exp not sure. It could be a valid one for combat promotions if you have the first and just beat a Mammoth or maybe Elephant.

As to the strength of the promo, I just plugged some numbers in. I'll adjust them. edit I think I will go with 10% for the first and free one with 30% for the second with it being available if you have the first.

1) I'll take a look at the button and see what's going on with that. Also, what programs are you using for the graphic design and adding the alpha channel?

2) That sounds a bit more valid, yes.

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I have done something wrong with those promotions. I want it so you can only get the first from the building but if you can get the second via exp. What did I do wrong?

Usually a promo that's assigned for free from a building and is not to be taken as a selectable skill promo would be given a TECH_SPECIAL_PROMOTION TechPrereq. This is not a tech anyone can research so it becomes a barrier to selection but is ignored when being given for free from the building because the building is assumed to have the prereqs itself. The combat class prereqs and some others won't ignore tech (and if I recall, equipment promos won't either) but skill promos will when given for free. The next promo would then inherit a prerequisite of the first promotion due to the rules for skill based promotionlines always requiring the unit have all promotions in the line before it.

JosEPh_II · Jan 27, 2016

Elephants are not spawning now. Is it because of the Mammoth Promo?

And why is the upgrade cost of going from Tracker to Hunter now dependent upon # of Promos the Tracker has in relation to having to pay higher upgrade cost? When did this come about? Example Epic game, Tracker with 2 promos costs 76 :gold:

to upgrade to Hunter unit, 3 promo = 79 :gold:

, and 4 promo = 83 :gold:

.
Kind of sux that the unit you worked the hardest cost more to get to the Next level in the chain then a newer less used unit. To me that's backwards.

JosEPh

Thunderbrd · Jan 27, 2016

JosEPh_II said:
Elephants are not spawning now. Is it because of the Mammoth Promo?

And why is the upgrade cost of going from Tracker to Hunter now dependent upon # of Promos the Tracker has in relation to having to pay higher upgrade cost? When did this come about? Example Epic game, Tracker with 2 promos costs 76 to upgrade to Hunter unit, 3 promo = 79, and 4 promo = 83.
Kind of sux that the unit you worked the hardest cost more to get to the Next level in the chain then a newer less used unit. To me that's backwards.

I've not done anything that would be causing that and I haven't seen anything going into the coding that would so that's very mysterious to me. It doesn't sound like something likely to be a random thing though since there's no obvious relationship between level and upgrades unless its been with us all along and I never knew about it.

Is this an intended effect from anyone?

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