Early game city attacking changes v34
- Thread starter meddiecap
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sorry man, I don't follow you very well here.
Again, a little more definition is necessary. We could make the prereqs more intensive, like requiring each level of self healing to have an equivalent level of combat like I did for the anti-barbarian promos. But is that the sort of thing you're getting at?
You'll have to check your options.
I'm not averse to seeing flaws in the design or to finding that they're a bit OP overall and admitting that they could be adjusted some to find better balance. I suggested a number of ways we could adapt - that's not the actions of someone who feels picked on. So I think I'm handling this pretty well. I'm really not taking offense to anything except sweeping comments of exasperated frustration that are vague enough to find it difficult to get to the heart of the problem.
And I'm never against someone generating an option that simplifies the promotion chains. It would mean an alternative redesign and doing the xml work that would make the alternative active rather than the core. Or the other way around. I can see perhaps going back to BtS and taking all of their promos and making them, along with the bare minimum necessary for C2C function like hunting for example, a core set while everything else is optioned out. It's just a much bigger project than I can take myself at the moment.
I would think all players would TRY just about all options before they make a determination about what they think would be fun is all. But I've gotten past being offended by your preference for more vanilla warfare strategy. I would have made more things optional in retrospect and may eventually find ways to do so eventually anyhow.
Measuring it would be a labor but all I can say is that it seemed to make a difference when I had it on.
Make it so. I'd be interested to know how it plays out. I can see how I've pretty much been thinking of it as +9% and how if you've got defenders in a city with it, the impression is flawed and can create a significant defensive imbalance.
Hmm... If you do that then you'll cut a lot of other types of units out of access unless you make a second version of it that can be taken via another path. Otherwise I can see the logic.
Sounds good. Give it a go!
That may be right. Maybe. Taking things back to all bonuses equal rather than different for Friendly/Neutral/Enemy territory might make increments of 3 still just barely valuable enough to take the promo. But I would have no problem with anyone trying these values.
Keep in mind when testing, that these changes would not be easily compared ingame as your units won't update the values on promos they've already taken.
Also bear in mind that self-repair values should be adjusted to reflect self-heal as well.
Unfortunately there's still a lot of forward (not bug related) design and coding to get diseases functioning as intended. It's almost there but needs a major rework to make more generic so other property stuff can happen along similar lines.
Based on the promo description in-game; Self Heal III would, in a city without any healing buildings or other healing bonuses, give a unit 35HP each turn.
In friendly 30HP, in neutral 22HP and in enemy territory 14HP, so yeah a flat +9% would probably be better for balance. One could also argue that the effects of a promo called self heal would not be affected by the local population.
OK.
Would this be defined in an XML?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah and with buildings giving bonuses and likely local healers, I agree it would be way too strong.
They are globals, so yes. Should be easy enough to find.
What does this one do exactly? I usually activate it because the name sounds interesting, but I don't know what that changes...
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
And it does not function as designed anymore.
You all use it if you want but it's not right.
I don't know how to make it any simpler. Just do what I posted and you will see. If you think that's the right way for them to work then we really have very divergent views on how quickly promos should be gotten. Even Toffer wrote the same thing. And you can understand him but not me? Should I make a whole string of screenies showing the process?
JosEPh
I'm not sure I see what your'e getting at either, Are you talking about the effect of different healing promos stacking? E.g. "Combat IV"'s 10% healing in neutral land stacks with "Self Heal X"'s healing in neutral land +Y%.
Anyways, I'm testing out a nerfed version of the self heal/repair promo line at the moment and I will perhaps also nerf the healing in the Combat/other promo line as well.
When I feel healing promos are balanced I will suggest my changes for implementation.
Perhaps the "Self Heal" should have a much smaller effect inside cities than outside, as there would be available healers/facilities that could do a better job close by.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Interesting, what I read as being said is if you have enough points to get three promotions you can instead get 5 by choosing the healing ones first.
@TB:
Does the tag "<iFriendlyHealChange>" affect how much a unit heal inside a city also?
I guess it does; if so, is there a tag to specifically modify how much a unit heals inside a city?
Edit: This is the basis for my test on healing rate from promos:
C=Combat V
SH=Self Heal/Repair V
Global = Base healing rate of unit
The right side indicates actual healing rates with the respective promotions; left side is the intrinsic values, unaffected by anything else.
Additional details: (H=Hostile, N=Neutral, F=Friendly)
| C-II +1 N | C-III +1 N/H/F | C-IV +1 N/H/F | C-V +2 F.
| SH-I +1 F, +2 H/N | SH-II +1 F, +2 H/N | SH-III +1 F/N, +2 H | SH-IV +1 F/N, +2 H | SH-V +1 F/H/N.
This must be troublesome for DH to read, for that I'm sorry.
This might seem strict; please give me suggestions for where I should increase the values; I was thinking the hunting promotion line should get healing buffs, that are a bit stronger than in the combat promo line (Hunter-I +3 N).
Does the tag "<iFriendlyHealChange>" affect how much a unit heal inside a city also?
I guess it does; if so, is there a tag to specifically modify how much a unit heals inside a city?
Edit: This is the basis for my test on healing rate from promos:
C=Combat V
SH=Self Heal/Repair V
Global = Base healing rate of unit
The right side indicates actual healing rates with the respective promotions; left side is the intrinsic values, unaffected by anything else.
Additional details: (H=Hostile, N=Neutral, F=Friendly)
| C-II +1 N | C-III +1 N/H/F | C-IV +1 N/H/F | C-V +2 F.
| SH-I +1 F, +2 H/N | SH-II +1 F, +2 H/N | SH-III +1 F/N, +2 H | SH-IV +1 F/N, +2 H | SH-V +1 F/H/N.
This must be troublesome for DH to read, for that I'm sorry.
This might seem strict; please give me suggestions for where I should increase the values; I was thinking the hunting promotion line should get healing buffs, that are a bit stronger than in the combat promo line (Hunter-I +3 N).
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Yes! Someone gets it! Ding Ding Ding!!!
I'm not talking "greek" here after all! And you don't have to pick the Heal ones 1st either for this to work.
Pick any basic promo 1st and then even another basic (if you have enough points to get three promotions), you can still add more than 1 Heal promo. So if I'm the AI and I can "see" that I have more "Cheap/no limits or restrictions" promos I can add, the AI adds them. The player does not know this until it's stumbled upon like I did.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm not sure I understand this either unfortunately. Are you suggesting that Combat promos get self healing values? I had simply meant perhaps they should be prerequisites for self healing promotions. But that will certainly force us to make a different line of self healing promos for hunters and recon and I've found the community doesn't appreciate that sort of approach much because it just means more promotions they have to try to understand.
No, there is not a set of tags on units/promos to differentiate city healing - it's only a differing base and of course the local buildings can apply as well as local healers. I'm all for letting the buildings and healers handle nearly 100% of the difference so I liked the proposal for the base values - an improvement of about 1 over normal friendly territory as a base adjustment for city healing seems right since there would be a bit more relaxation and comfort available in a city.
Sorry about how lost I am on the rest of it.
So you're trying to say that somehow some promos, the healing ones in particular, are something you can select for free? I don't know of any provision that would enable this aside from the unit somehow losing a couple of promotions from an upgrade or something along those lines and then being able to select promotions to replace those that were lost. This effect could be throwing off a perception of what is taking place but in that situation, you'd be able to select any promos to replace, not just healing ones.Yes! Someone gets it! Ding Ding Ding!!!
And you don't have to pick the Heal ones 1st either for this to work.
Pick any basic promo 1st and then even another basic (if you have enough points to get three promotions), you can still add more than 1 Heal promo. So if I'm the AI and I can "see" that I have more "Cheap/no limits or restrictions" promos I can add, the AI adds them. The player does not know this until it's stumbled upon like I did.
JosEPh
So let's be clear, there are no functions in the code that enable a unit to select another promotion simply because of the promotion you selected. No promo comes along as a free pick by its own nature. Period. Now that said, I suppose there could be an odd bug somewhere to look into.
Combat promotion already have self heal in C2C
Combat IV has +10 heal in neutral territory & Combat V has +10 heal in enemy territory
Actually, I'm suggesting to nerf the healing from the combat promotion line.
Like this:
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Wow... yeah I'd forgotten about those bonuses. I'd take them out of the combat line too. They date back to a time before any attempt to refine healing rules and were forgotten during that attempt. I imagine they'd be throwing things way off actually.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Yeah different promos for different units doing the same thing should I agree be avoided at almost all costs. Could you make it a level requirement? Master Hunter II I think it is that requires level 5, so there must be a tag for it.
So DH, can you say whether you understood this because you have also experienced it, or merely by 'suspension of disbelief'
?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
This is possible, yes. iLevelPrereq or iPrereqLevel, something along those lines.
Ok, so it looks like you're using Self-Heal to primarily counter the penalties of hostile/neutral territories and allowing it to have some much lesser effect for friendly. Interesting idea. I actually quite like that. If I understand you, the right hand SH is what you would have if you had taken all 5 Self Heals? Looks very appropriate in fact.
These new base values would make healing in the wilderness take a long time without some help. But overall, it gives a lot more room for healing benefits of nearly any amount to be highly valuable so yeah... I'd think this would be quite fun actually, and gives more purpose to dedicated medical units.
Correct, though the right hand side is merely "Global + Base SH" I set it up like that, to only show maximum healing effect from promos, because there where more than 1 promotion-line to consider (when I initially made the excel sheet).
Maximum 14 turns (could this be made dependent on game-speed somehow?), thats the main reason I wanted to keep some healing percentages in the combat promo-line. In my test I've actually enjoyed the longer healing times as it made it more important to build wise woman and healers in the beginning, exploration took slightly longer, and I seldom had to heal more than 5 turns. it also made it more important not to merge every units possible.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
<Sigh>
One more time T-brd just for you. And please stop the wheels in your head from spinning while you're reading my post, please??? Just digest it 1st, think about it and then respond...or not. Okay? Please?
Okay, here we go,
Ex: I have a city that will let me select for Any Newly built combat unit 3 non-healing promos from the promo list. To continue the ex, say I just built a javelineer. I can normally give it Combat 1, Melee 1 (the fist), and archer 1 (the arrows)(or any combination of 3 of the multitude of "normal" base promos (withdrawl, Terrain type, etc.) and I'm done. I can't assign anymore promos.
But if I choose instead not to give it the archer 1 (or melee1 or Combat1, etc.) but give it the Self Healing 1. Then after giving it that Self Healing 1 I still have an Option/selection to give it self healing II. And sometimes SH III!, for a total of 4-5 Promos when I should be able to only give it 3 Total promos.
But again If I choose 3 "normal" Promos I only can get those 3 and No More. But If I choose to let one of those 3 "Normal" promos be replaced by the SH1, then I can get another (SH2) and/or SH3.
Now please, feel free to re-engage the wheels.
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
So DH, can you say whether you understood this because you have also experienced it, or merely by 'suspension of disbelief'
I have not seen it. I just read what Joe wrote. (I can't test anything until the barbarians stop having neanderthals and I get the subdued animals updated).
