The Inquisition (69)

POINT : From the office of RegentMan:

As most of you know, I favor a quick dash for the wheel, followed by research of the first tech level, and then ending with iron working. Why would this be in the best interests of Fanatannia? Let’s imagine a scenario. We are currently pursuing the philosophy gambit and are three turns away from discovery. Everyone’s happy, going about their day. Then between turns, the Babylons get it, ending our bid for the free tech. Our neighbors have founded cities near our mountains. After all, we’ve settled better city spots and, because we neglected iron working, we don’t know where the iron is. It turns out that our only source of iron is in those mountains. Now what? Should we be invaded, we will not have any way of striking back. Swords and horsemen require iron and horses, respectively. Heck, we may not have any archers because of our blind sightedness. Is this what you want?

If we go my way, we will know where the iron and horses are. We will have a means to defend ourselves, a way to strike at our enemies offensively, and a path to possibly deny the resources to our rivals. After acquiring these techs, we can then decide which government we want. It’s premature to think that we want a republic this early. We don’t know. Should we require an army, then republic is out. Or perhaps we want to go the construction/currency route. After all, our capital will require an aqueduct to grow to become the greatest city on the Earth.

In review, grabbing the wheel, the first tier of techs, then iron working is the way to go. We’ll know where the resources are, we’ll be somewhat caught up in the tech race, and we won’t waste our time should the philosophy gambit fail. The ancient age will decide whether or not we win this game. Let’s not screw up the next few months simply because of a possible free tech.

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COUNTERPOINT : From the Desk of SaaM

My deputy brings up an apocalyptic tale of woe about loosing iron and loosing horses and being invaded. To this, I say phooey. Fanatannia will have the resources it needs. I first bring notice to our terrain, which is rich with hills and grasslands. For all we know, we may have already found where our Iron and Horses are. Granted, this is a speculation, but so is everything RegentMan says. How do we not know that Iron resides in the hills of the gold and the river? How do we can be raised as a counter to this, yes, but how do we not?

We have discovered our nearest neighbor to be the Indians. We have Gandhi as our neighbor. He has already started going for random techs, but he is a TRADING PARTNER. We have someone to trade with once we gain our techs. And by the looks of it, we two are not the only ones here. I personally feel we may be on a continent or a pangea. This, of course, means more people to trade with.

My deputy also dismisses the philosophy gambit as a worthless trick. He wants to go for the first tier of techs, then Iron Working. This is precisely what the AI does. It cleans up vertically, and then goes horizontal. We want to beat them to the punch! This will serve as an excellent way to propel us further.

Trade is the lifeblood of this game. We already have a trading partner. Soon, we will be in the works for our second city. This will increase our profits, as well as increase our chances of happening upon resources. And you never know. The iron could be in those previously mentioned mountains.

I cannot offer a gloom and doom scenario like my deputy. He is the naysayer in this case. I can offer polling data pointing to a 23/5/0 majority in favor of pursuing this path. The people want it. The people would like to see us pursue it and my job is to follow their whims. So be it. They shall be listened to.

The Plan:
Head to Philosophy, presumably grab Map Making as our freebie, turn around and trade it (it not being the free tech gained, but Philo and Writing) for as many prior techs as we can (including Iron, Wheel and HBR). Continue on with our free tech and build The Great Lighthouse. End the age ahead thanks to smart thinking. This is how we win; by planning and taking risks.

Plus, it’s a game. Lets have fun.

SaaM

In tune with A440

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My deputy brings up an apocalyptic tale of woe about loosing iron and loosing horses and being invaded. To this, I say phooey. Fanatannia will have the resources it needs. I first bring notice to our terrain, which is rich with hills and grasslands. For all we know, we may have already found where our Iron and Horses are. Granted, this is a speculation, but so is everything RegentMan says.

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Well, I'd rather have my speculation than yours. If we follow mine, we will be basically guaranteed horses and iron. Your speculation is merely a fantasy that will lead us down the tube without resources. You assume that Fanatannia will have all of the resources it needs. How can you say that? Granted, both are only possibilities. However, your possibility is dangerous, as it makes us assume that we have the iron and horses. We cannot assume this. Tanks beat spearmen every time, right?

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How do we not know that Iron resides in the hills of the gold and the river?

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Different resources rarely spawn next to each other. You won't see gold next to iron. That's why I want to be certain that we have this valuable resource. There's probably only one source in that mountain range. I want to know where it is and claim it before Gandhi does.

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We have someone to trade with once we gain our techs.

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Writing and philosophy will only get us so far. We won't get all of the techs we need by trading these two. We'll get some, but Gandhi will have our two, plus all of his. I fail to see how this propels us into the tech lead.

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My deputy also dismisses the philosophy gambit as a worthless trick. He wants to go for the first tier of techs, then Iron Working. This is precisely what the AI does. It cleans up vertically, and then goes horizontal. We want to beat them to the punch! This will serve as an excellent way to propel us further.

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If another AI researches a tech, then that tech will be cheaper for us. Right now, spending fifty turns researching writing while they spend ten or fifteen turns getting others, we'll fall behind even further. Please read my previous answer.

So you see, the Consul of Resources and Technology is assuming that we have iron in the nearby mountain range. Any experienced Civ III player knows that you cannot assume anything in this game. I would rather have my "gloom and doom scenario" than your "oh, everything will be okay" story. World War I was assumed to end all wars. Look what happened.

It is true that the majority of the people want to proceed with the philosophy gambit. I pray it works, otherwise we will have wasted such valuable time researching a tech path that won't aid us. Risks should be taken; unnecessary risks, such as the philosophy gambit, should not.

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Election Day: Presidency

Civanator Oops! Forgot to put my nomination in! Anyways.. Congratulations DaveShack!

Chieftess Civanator - Do you want to run? I can still redo the poll if you want.

Black_hole i would prefer if we followed the constitution, but heh its up to you

Chieftess He hasn't responded though (I was giving a 1-hour grace period to see if I missed any nominations).

Blackhole i understand, but that isnt in the article that has been ratified...

Civanator CT I sent you a PM regarding this election.

Chieftess Like I said, I was hoping Civanator responded before 8:00pm, but he was a bit late. He can try next term though. Please translate this to forum time, just so we'll have a record which corresponds to the forum timestamps.


Donovan Zoi Ay yi yi.......... Smart move, CT.

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Appointment Day: Vice Presidency

Provolution Well, Donsig is not eligible for Vice President, not having signed in the citizen thread before 1 March. The Judiciary should follow the law and ask for a registered citizen to be nominated by the President (registered prior to March 1. ) and respect the law and the citizen registry list.

Chieftess hmm, I thought anyone could be nominated as long as they signed up. I don't think there should be a cut-off date. What about those who join mid-term? Are they going to be forced to wait a whole term? If only those registered before March 1st can be nominated, then that's pretty restrictive.

Donovan Zoi With no laws in place, we should let it slide this time. But I see Provo's point because ideally the President should have named a VP on March 1st. I think if someone is appointed to fill a mid-term vacancy, then the restriction should not apply as long as the citizen is registered at the time.

Provolution DZ I remember you from last game wanting a citizen approval poll for every conceivable contested decision, and to follow the law.
This should definitively be done here as well, unless the Pesident picks a registered citizen prior to 1 March. I suggest this to be handed in for Judicial review, all the other registered and rejected Vice Presidential candidates that have been rejected to benotified by public announcement and PMs and to have an open Judicial Review on the Matter. DZ, you learnt me to protect citizen rights and the rules, and even though you are a close PBEM buddy to the nominated VP as your signature suggests, I firmly believe in the equality of the Law. I therefore deem the nominated VP as illegtimate by the Constitution and Appoinment Laws and call for a new appointment.
I also cannot see the nominated VP register yet, at all.

Dominik Now I'm not the most familiar with laws, but if the law says that the VP must have signed up before March 1st and the VP in question hasn't, then they should not be VP. Otherwise, what's the point for these laws?

Provolution Dominik, indeed they do. We need a new VP nomination.

Black Hole well first off we have no laws saying there is a DP, president, or vice president, or any other position.... These are in the ratifacation process... It is very very hard for me to give a concise opinion, because we have constitution articles lying all over the forum

Tim Bentley I'm not concerned about the time of registration, but I also do not see donsig in the citizen registry.

Provolution Well it is a no-brainer, Donsig did not register at all by the time of the appointment, so a new appointment needs to be made based on the registry prior to 1. of March. We need to respect the election times and due procedure or we will get anarchy.

Black Hole I would suggest someone file a JR over this matter

Ginger Ale What is the point of a JR? Can we not just have donsig sign up in the Citizen Registry and be VP? We don't have to turn this into something more than it is.

Provolution Ginger Ale, this is a government simulation, and without that a mere succession game. Without laws, we wouldhave no Judiciary. I know you are not into legalities and politics Ginger Ale but respect those of us wanting this to be a civilized game.

Ravensfire Worst case, DS reappoints donsig as VP. Life goes on.
Provo - relax - there is no malicious intent here.

Provolution Well, with no citizen partipation in the Judiciary, we would get poorer laws and poorer application of the laws, I will not let a blind eye to the legal handling this game, but do my best to perfect the system and the laws. I also do this to make the game more accessible and fair to all of the citizens.

Ravensfire
Provo - a much nicer way to handle this would have been a simple - "Hey, donsig, I noticed you hadn't registered as a citizen yet. Could you do that real quick?" Problem solved. The courts should not be the first way to handle every single problem. Respect your fellow citizens, of which donsig is most definitely one.

Black Hole Mr. President, JR#1 has been completed, you may now reappoint donsig(who has registered) to the position of Vice President, if you so desire.

Blackheart I'm still available to be VP *hint hint*

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Polling Day: The Vices of Presidency

ORIGIN OF THE CONTROVERSIAL APPOINTMENT VALIDITY APPROVAL POLL

President DaveshackProvolution, you had a better mechanism of challenging this appointment at your disposal. Just post an approval poll "do you approve of this appointment Y/N/A?", private, and 48 hour duration.

Provolution I told you, I figured out the loophole for Donsig too. We make this a mid term appointment the 15 of March, and ratify it by the four consuls, of which my vote already support Donsig. So there is no need to make slack adaption laws, but to utilize the built in clause for mid term appointments. Consider VP unfilled to the 15th.

President Daveshack Sorry, you lost me there. There is no such thing as a consul vote to ratify an appointment, or at least not that I'm aware of.

Strider

Originally Posted by Alternative Government
2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

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It's there alright.

Provolution Yeah, I am amazed that Daveshack has lost control over the works for his lobbyist, draftsman and protege Black Hole, and not read the very constitution he has promoted to become the new DG constitution. The solution is written by the very same people combatting me, ironically enough for presenting their very own creative to such a solution. Since I came up with it, they automatically had to shoot it down, but it was theirs all the way, kind of funny, isn't it.

By the way I am posting the approval poll.


FROM MISINFORMED PRESIDENTIAL ADVICE TO THE GRAPES OF WRATH

Blackheart This poll doesn't do anything except inflame the situation.

Blackheart We should start the condemnation of those who wish to be anal and start a war over a minor error that could be fixed with a single PM. This situation has exploded, it was handled badly from the beginning.
Fixing laws is fine and all, but it must be done with common courtesy and respect.

Blackheart Politicians and beauracrats and witch hunts, unfortunately, don't like simplicity

Blackheart You can take your accusations and <expletive> and shove them up your <expletive>. You have handled this very poorly, much like that of an 8 yr old tattling on someone else. Reread the judiciary thread Provo, and this time don't fill in the blanks with your bull. Black_hole clearly stated the judiciary's job, and it's to interpret laws, not make them. It's amazing that since they don't agree with your job description you accuse them of being biased. So please, continue your inquisition, witchhunt, fecal filled investigation. We know there was a better and more human way to handle this, you chose to go the opposite.

Blackheart Unfortunately we can't with all the flak that can be easily solved by a gentle friendly reminder.

Bill in PDX I don't think using a perceived minor flaw in the law to try to drive through sweeping changes via a JR is kosher. I would recommend that Provolution propose and campaign for his proposals.

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The Judicious Review - A View ot a Kill

ORIGIN OF THE CONTROVERSIAL APPOINTMENT VALIDITY JUDICIAL REVIEW

Provolution Well it is a no-brainer, Donsig did not register at all by the time of the appointment, so a new appointment needs to be made based on the registry prior to 1. of March. We need to respect the election times and due procedure or we will get anarchy.

Black Hole I would suggest someone file a JR over this matter

FROM JUDICIAL REVIEW TO PREJUDICED PURVIEW

Ravensfire We are not, however, a nation of strict, draconian laws, where only the most severe options are used. We're supposed to be a nation of CFC members with a mutual desire to play a game as a group. Implicit in that desire is mutual respect for other members, and tolerance of minor mistakes. The intent behind this Judicial Review request goes against those precepts. I quote from our preamble: "We, the people of Fanatannia, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship, cooperation and pride..."



Ravensfire To me, part of the spirit of friendship involves allowing others to own up to and correct mistakes. This was not done here. Instead, a viscous and unwarranted onslaught was launched. I am gravely disappointed in this action. Where's the harm in a gentle reminder, a request to that citizen to register themselves. None. Indeed, the amount of respect that citizen would have towards the one making the request is likely to go up. Friends allow friends to correct problems before they become larger issues.
[Black_hole about Civanators late nomination to Chieftess i would prefer if we followed the constitution, but heh its up to you. Black Hole about Donsigs forgotten PM to Donsig it would greatly helped if you registered, and read your pms(which i sent you one asking you to do this )
According to 2/3 justices you can be reappointed after you register, but this is not yet official as we are waiting for the third justice to post his ruling.

Donsig to Black Hole about forgotten PM I have registered! Sorry for not reading the pm yet. Went to Canada Saturday (all night) was busy Sunday and had to be in court this morning. Just now getting to the forums. I had been keeping an eye on my pms wondering if I'd hear anything from DaveShack. Imagine my surprise upon stumbling on this thread! Sorry for not registering earlier. I thought I had... ]


Ravensfire The Judiciary should be an option of last resort, not as the opening salvo. When there is a genuine question about the law - that's a perfectly valid reason to bring to the Judiciary early. However, as I've noted above, the law is pretty clear about this matter - you need to be a citizen to be a deputy (or, for that matter, any official). It's equally clear that this JR is not intended to clarify the law, but to use the Judiciary to push the issue. While it's true that this isn't anything prohibited, and that this use is greatly preferred over a CC (which logically could have been filed over this), it's still clearly a misuse of the Judiciary. I hope to never see such a case again.[Black Hole about Provolutions legal question I would suggest someone file a JR over this matter]

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