Arabia Overbuffed?

So, I look at the new Arabia and think the developers have no idea about balance.

The old Arabia was a very good civ. Their UA was on the weaker side (+1 gold from trade routes/city connections was nice but marginal, and double oil was again nice but comes late), but this was balanced by a very good UB and UU.

The new Arabia, they removed the weak part from the UA and replaced it with two good bonuses, and then kept the double oil. The UA no longer needs to double oil, imo.

They made the UB even stronger, on top of the extra luxury, and +2 gold to oasis and oil tiles, the UB now also provides +1 raw gold over the base market. It doesn't need this new extra gold bonus.

And the camel archer has always been godly.

So now Arabia has three very strong uniques, and one of their old uniques which was already very strong got an extra buff for no reason.

Arabia was previously the best civilization in the game. Luxuries don't sell for as much as they used to, but the Bazaar was improved to make up for that plus Arabia got an incredibly good trait, so I'd say they're still the best in the game.

Yeah, I agree it went too far. Meanwhile France went from very good to quite poor, and has easily the worst trait in the game. I really don't understand that change.

I was surprised to see them keep their double oil. I haven't played a game with or against them yet, but they were always one of the best civs in the game, so it stands to reason that they're even better now. Even with the addition of the new civs they're probably still in the Top 5 or even Top 3.

KevinJK said:

Arabia was previously the best civilization in the game. Luxuries don't sell for as much as they used to, but the Bazaar was improved to make up for that plus Arabia got an incredibly good trait, so I'd say they're still the best in the game.

Yeah, I agree it went too far. Meanwhile France went from very good to quite poor, and has easily the worst trait in the game. I really don't understand that change.

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I 100 % agree. Insane civ in every way.

So, we're almost a half-dozen posts into this thread and npbody has said that it's fine and people should complaining about everything?

Wow, this must really be jacked up!

Oh mannn you guys have me scared now. Been playing my first civ game ever (with g&k and bnw, and after doing a few tutorial games) and started on a small island with Arabia. So far so good. We've been trading amicably since the beginning. They do have a decent sized army though compared to me, and i just irritated them by placing my 4th city close to them while cutting off their expansion path (I needed this city. I missed where you had to have a city built on the coast to develop naval units. I thought that once you just bought water tiles they were enabled so I expanded more inland for better resources.)

Hopefullyyy they dont just turn on me soon!

(Loving Civ as a game so far though. I have been awfully tired at work the past few days to say the least.)

KevinJK said:

Arabia was previously the best civilization in the game. Luxuries don't sell for as much as they used to, but the Bazaar was improved to make up for that plus Arabia got an incredibly good trait, so I'd say they're still the best in the game.

Yeah, I agree it went too far. Meanwhile France went from very good to quite poor, and has easily the worst trait in the game. I really don't understand that change.

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France is fantastic for a culture victory, not quite sure what you mean.

^ what he said. France is even better now chateaus are that good.

Yzman said:

France is fantastic for a culture victory, not quite sure what you mean.

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The very maximum theming bonus in a city if you get every slotted world wonder is 42. That means at the end of the game and only if you got all of them in you capital, France's trait can award 42 culture and tourism. Meanwhile other traits actually help early enough in the game to matter.

Certainly Chateau + Hotel helps to make up for this, but that doesn't change the fact that France's trait is the weakest one in the game.

KevinJK said:

The very maximum theming bonus in a city if you get every slotted world wonder is 42. That means at the end of the game and only if you got all of them in you capital, France's trait can award 42 culture and tourism. Meanwhile other traits actually help early enough in the game to matter.

Certainly Chateau + Hotel helps to make up for this, but that doesn't change the fact that France's trait is the weakest one in the game.

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Maybe they could've had both? +2 culture/city until Steam Power. After Steam Power, double tourism in capital.

The best part is they have desert bias, which is the best start since G&K. Arabian godly traits + Petra + Desert Folklore. Practically cheating at that point.

KevinJK said:

The very maximum theming bonus in a city if you get every slotted world wonder is 42. That means at the end of the game and only if you got all of them in you capital, France's trait can award 42 culture and tourism. Meanwhile other traits actually help early enough in the game to matter.

Certainly Chateau + Hotel helps to make up for this, but that doesn't change the fact that France's trait is the weakest one in the game.

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Museums are also included in this which you didn't factor. Also, you are underestimating 42 tourism. Have you done a cultural victory yet with the new mechanics? Most of the game you will be lucky to have 30 tourism. Its not until the end of the game that you start to get into the 100s. Given the fact that this is also a cumulative number, this advantage adds up to A LOT during the whole game.

We haven't even included the chateau yet, which is one of the few culture improvements in the game. These will further add to your tourism bonus during the game once you get airports and hotels up.

I understand when you read it, it doesn't appear that powerful, but once you play with it you realize it is fantastic.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=502142

Yes, I did factor Museums.

And no I'm not underestimating anything. My point wasn't that 42 tourism is nothing. That's quite a lot. My point was that it isn't enough considering it doesn't happen until late game. By that point, someone has become so powerful that they're going to win and you're really just playing out the remaining turns.

This was never about the Chateau, which is nice, but somewhat limited. It's about their trait. City of Lights is the least useful trait in the game.

I agree Arabia is one of the most powerful civs, but do not understand how France got weaker, when it should be obvious that it is quite the oposite:

instead of two culture per city, which favors a lot of cities, which delays social policies you now have boost for every museum/ world wonder in the city, which will truly exploit wide empire, that is able to produce a lot of archaeologist in no time, and fill those slots

add to that UB boosting culture/ tourism, instead of one more UU, new techs and buildings that will exploit this (hotels, airports, internet) and France just got a lot stronger!!

post was about Arabia, so sry for going on about France

btw, I had the best game ever with Arabia (always play immortal, sometimes flirt with deity, until annoyed) and it really got stronger!

Sorry to sound rude Kevin, but aren't you the guy who was telling folks that Pangea maps counted as different continents? I think you are being a bit too quick off the mark with your assessment of power here as well.

France hasn't gotten weaker - it has been changed. It does have a weak trait, no denying that - but that's because Chateau's are so powerful. Like all civs you have to consider them in the round and not just the individual pieces to judge the whole.

Arabia is absolutely a strong civ, but I honestly wouldn't put them in the top 3. Their abilities slightly contradict each other - extra luxuries for trading, but a unit that pushes you to warfare so eliminating your trading partners and the value you get from trades. I also don't think the ability itself is that strong - religious push from a civ that gets no religion bonuses, extra range which is nice and the doubling of oil which I have yet to ever see a practical need for in any game. Either you're a warmonger in which case your conquered territory should easily have enoug oil, or you aren't and you don't need much. Oil never seems that rare in my games.

Arabia's ability has always felt like an odd hodge pudge of things backed up by a great unit and a fairly decent unique building. It's never felt like it was in the same power league as say China, Babylon, The Maya, The Inca etc.

Maledict said:

Sorry to sound rude Kevin, but aren't you the guy who was telling folks that Pangea maps counted as different continents? I think you are being a bit too quick off the mark with your assessment of power here as well.

France hasn't gotten weaker - it has been changed. It does have a weak trait, no denying that - but that's because Chateau's are so powerful. Like all civs you have to consider them in the round and not just the individual pieces to judge the whole.

Arabia is absolutely a strong civ, but I honestly wouldn't put them in the top 3. Their abilities slightly contradict each other - extra luxuries for trading, but a unit that pushes you to warfare so eliminating your trading partners and the value you get from trades. I also don't think the ability itself is that strong - religious push from a civ that gets no religion bonuses, extra range which is nice and the doubling of oil which I have yet to ever see a practical need for in any game. Either you're a warmonger in which case your conquered territory should easily have enoug oil, or you aren't and you don't need much. Oil never seems that rare in my games.

Arabia's ability has always felt like an odd hodge pudge of things backed up by a great unit and a fairly decent unique building. It's never felt like it was in the same power league as say China, Babylon, The Maya, The Inca etc.

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Doesn't that feel strange, living in the world we live in? We should be fighting wars over oil reserves! Instead, I always have 10+ units just sitting around, until some civ goes to war and demand rises

turing, do u have msn or skype?

Matthew. said:

The best part is they have desert bias, which is the best start since G&K. Arabian godly traits + Petra + Desert Folklore. Practically cheating at that point.

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^^^ Exactly. To a lesser extent, Morocco as well, but Arabia's uniques are so much better.

KevinJK said:

The very maximum theming bonus in a city if you get every slotted world wonder is 42. That means at the end of the game and only if you got all of them in you capital, France's trait can award 42 culture and tourism. Meanwhile other traits actually help early enough in the game to matter.

Certainly Chateau + Hotel helps to make up for this, but that doesn't change the fact that France's trait is the weakest one in the game.

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That's before multipliers come into the equation.

Yzman said:

France is fantastic for a culture victory, not quite sure what you mean.

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I agree with this. I played them in my last multiplayer game and had so much tourism it was ungodly. The chateau was a huge boost.