Tactics for invading runaway AIs

Blitz Spearman

Warlord
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
213
Location
Brazil
I just hit a dead end in my last game. I was playing as the Zulu (immortal/standard speed/standard size/fractal/no ruins) for the first time, just trying to test some new tactics. I started in a corner of the continent, with sea and a couple of CSs in one side, and Pocatello on the other side. I decided to open Tradition for the early culture boost, then go through Liberty and later come back to Tradition to get Monarchy when more trade route slots enable for a strong food concentration in the capital. The Zulu UA helps a lot to overpower a neighbour early game, and I crushed Pocatello to death before turn 70 with my army over 10 spearmen and just 2 catapults, while using internal trade routes since the beginning (I had no one else to trade with anyway), and my economy was still stable. Got his Pyramids, which was a nice addition for my plans of wide expansion through war.

Exploring after the Shoshone choke point, I found Ashurbanipal. After waiting a couple of turns for Civil Service, my army of impi had a very easy time stomping his surprisingly small army, and Physics came just in time for my catapults to become trebuchets before finishing his capital. This time I got Statue of Zeus, sweet! By then, I had 4 of my own cities and 3 puppets (I burned all cities that would not provide a new luxury), but I was still last in population and literacy. Oh well, time to stop a little bit and build that National College and those universities, and also a couple of happiness buildings so I can grow more. So I just sat there with my army for about 20~30 turns before progressing with my campaign of doom through the continent.

With the empire happy again and the army a little bit bigger and fully healed, I went ahead to see who'd be my next victim, and I found Catherine, who had just entered Renaissance, while I was still getting the Workshop tech. Oh well, better invade her before things get too ugly. I marched with my 10~12 impi and my 5 trebuchets and entered the huge borders of St. Petersburg.

And then my problems started.

St. Petersburg had a large area of forest that I had to pass through, and Catherine had the largest army in the world. She started to send dozens of knights against my impi, and even with the extra movement from the ikanda promotions, it was really hard to march forward. At one point I started to lose some units, so I had to retreat to heal. I started to produce more impi and more trebuchets in my capital, and was beelining Economics for the gold boost, since my puppets were full of trading posts. So with my army healed and slightly bigger, I marched again. But then it was 1200 AD, and Catherine entered the Industrial Era. She probably got the Arsenal asap, because her city defenses jumped to impossible levels all of a sudden. All the other AI capitals (China had just reached us by the sea and got the WC host) had about 40~45 strength. The CSs were around 45~50, with Hanoi being the strongest with 51.

St. Petersburg had 68 and was killing my trebuchets in one hit. When I looked at Moscow through my spy and saw that it had 87 strength, at 1250 AD, and was producing a gatling gun every 3 turns, I just gave up, lol.

So, what do you guys think that I did wrong? And would it still be possible to win in this situation?



tl;dr: I was going for domination win as the Zulu, but after crushing 2 AIs, stumbled upon a runaway AI with twice as much city defense as anyone else and one whole era ahead of everyone else in tech. What to do?
 
I just hit a dead end in my last game. I was playing as the Zulu (immortal/standard speed/standard size/fractal/no ruins) for the first time, just trying to test some new tactics. I started in a corner of the continent, with sea and a couple of CSs in one side, and Pocatello on the other side. I decided to open Tradition for the early culture boost, then go through Liberty and later come back to Tradition to get Monarchy when more trade route slots enable for a strong food concentration in the capital. The Zulu UA helps a lot to overpower a neighbour early game, and I crushed Pocatello to death before turn 70 with my army over 10 spearmen and just 2 catapults, while using internal trade routes since the beginning (I had no one else to trade with anyway), and my economy was still stable. Got his Pyramids, which was a nice addition for my plans of wide expansion through war.

Exploring after the Shoshone choke point, I found Ashurbanipal. After waiting a couple of turns for Civil Service, my army of impi had a very easy time stomping his surprisingly small army, and Physics came just in time for my catapults to become trebuchets before finishing his capital. This time I got Statue of Zeus, sweet! By then, I had 4 of my own cities and 3 puppets (I burned all cities that would not provide a new luxury), but I was still last in population and literacy. Oh well, time to stop a little bit and build that National College and those universities, and also a couple of happiness buildings so I can grow more. So I just sat there with my army for about 20~30 turns before progressing with my campaign of doom through the continent.

With the empire happy again and the army a little bit bigger and fully healed, I went ahead to see who'd be my next victim, and I found Catherine, who had just entered Renaissance, while I was still getting the Workshop tech. Oh well, better invade her before things get too ugly. I marched with my 10~12 impi and my 5 trebuchets and entered the huge borders of St. Petersburg.

And then my problems started.

St. Petersburg had a large area of forest that I had to pass through, and Catherine had the largest army in the world. She started to send dozens of knights against my impi, and even with the extra movement from the ikanda promotions, it was really hard to march forward. At one point I started to lose some units, so I had to retreat to heal. I started to produce more impi and more trebuchets in my capital, and was beelining Economics for the gold boost, since my puppets were full of trading posts. So with my army healed and slightly bigger, I marched again. But then it was 1200 AD, and Catherine entered the Industrial Era. She probably got the Arsenal asap, because her city defenses jumped to impossible levels all of a sudden. All the other AI capitals (China had just reached us by the sea and got the WC host) had about 40~45 strength. The CSs were around 45~50, with Hanoi being the strongest with 51.

St. Petersburg had 68 and was killing my trebuchets in one hit. When I looked at Moscow through my spy and saw that it had 87 strength, at 1250 AD, and was producing a gatling gun every 3 turns, I just gave up, lol.

So, what do you guys think that I did wrong? And would it still be possible to win in this situation?



tl;dr: I was going for domination win as the Zulu, but after crushing 2 AIs, stumbled upon a runaway AI with twice as much city defense as anyone else and one whole era ahead of everyone else in tech. What to do?

Hard to tell without the save.
 
Late game is very very long and its possible to catchup eventually in modern era with few bulbs from great scientists and with research agreements. So don't quit the game until its really lost, for now you should probably build infrastructure and tech as fast as possible.

The best option is to build loooooots of planes and nukes. Nukes speeds things a lot, and it will kill those awesome AI cities nicely - bombers and fighters will kill everything else. Watch for diplomacy, try to bribe AIs to attack each other. I had similar situation and was on the way to kill runaway but I did lost the game on immortal since I screwed up diplomacy and got attacked by 2 AIs just a bit before I was ready.
 
I was not really worried about being attacked by other AIs because my geographic position was really good for defense. But diplomacy in BNW is something that you have to just give up if going for domination, because all other civs (except Genghis Khan, heh) hated me a LOT. Distance in the map was probably the only reason why they were not attacking me. This is actually what hurt my growth most, because trading extra luxuries was just impossible, and even if I tried to sell them I would only get 3 gpt for each lux. Research Agreements were also unthinkable because of this.
 
It's impossible to attack more advanced opponents if you come into range of their cities or units. Trebuchets suck for that reason. Impi's even more. I completely rely on crossbows with range upgrade for any domination game. Later you can use artillery or airplanes of course.

Seems like you gave this game up too quick. Just accept that Russia can't be taken down for the time being. Keep stalking them and hit at the right time.

My last game as Zulu I was behind Persia by an era or so in tech. He was isolated in the corner of the map while I took everyone else down. He completed the Apollo program around the time I upgraded my airforce to bombers and fighters. Just stack bombers till you think you can one hit the city and run your ironclad or ground forces in there. You win. The AI is oblivious to that sort of thing. Immortal by the way.
 
My ability to stop the runaways really improved once I realised the importance of starting wars through bribery. You need to start long before the runaways run away. It basically gets down to regularly reading the demographics menu, making sure you have enough to bribe, and keeping good enough relations with each civ you intend to bribe.

If your relations are good enough with the strongest Civ (i.e. biggest military), sometimes you can get them to go to war for almost nothing. The goal is to get it so that each potential runaway DoWs the second strongest civ, thus weakening both sides. The trick is to time it so that they don't gain much from the war, but come to a stalemate with the other civ. I know I'm doing it right when each potential runaway never has a chance due to the almost constant warfare.
 
If your enemy has an army larger than yours or comparable your best bet is to make them come to you, which the AI will do. Its a good policy to destroy the army before getting within city defense ranges.

In addition, even if her cities are proving difficult to take, once you've destroyed their army you can start ravaging the countryside pillaging any built tiles for gold. This strengthens you and weakens them. With that money you can buy more seige or wait for an upgrade.
 
You need to start long before the runaways run away.

If you did that, they wouldn't be the runaway.

And on Continents, that's nearly impossible. You'll never meet the runaway before Astronomy allows you to get off continent. By that point, if any runaway exists, they'll have the tech lead and will have stiffled the other AIs on their continent.
 
If you did that, they wouldn't be the runaway.

And on Continents, that's nearly impossible. You'll never meet the runaway before Astronomy allows you to get off continent. By that point, if any runaway exists, they'll have the tech lead and will have stiffled the other AIs on their continent.

You know what I mean, though. Those who are not new to CiV can tell the potential runaways. You know how if you see Russia or Greece or Siam or China or Iroquois... that these almost always runaway. If you see these civs and they have great starts with no sign of slowing down, these are your potential runaways.

Similarly, there are some civs which I have NEVER seen runaway in the hands of the AI: Spain, Byzantium, Ethiopia, Aztecs.

You are right though about it being more difficult on Continents.
 
Build a diplomatic coalition and outvote them at the WC.

A trade embargo and a world ideology that does not match their own will help. Follow up with embargoing their main luxury resources and taking their CS's away with your superior gold. If this goes well their happiness will plummet and they'll have to fight with negative penalties.

This won't help against the cities, but it will help clear out the army more easily and make the units shooting from inside cities do less damage.
 
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