davidlallen
Deity
I agree. Dune seems to be a lot more about the abilities of people, and less about what newer gadgets can do for you.
Any feedback on this from anyone?
To complete the design:
Mahdi "extra":
Interplanetary Jihad (building)
Requires Galactic Religion tech.
Requires Mahdi religion, Mahdi state religion.
+25% military production.
(Name is weak, maybe we can come up with something better. the idea of the intergalactic religion tech in general is that the Dune religions are spilling over into the rest of the galaxy, and so for Mahdi the Jihad is intensifying and you're starting to send soldiers offworld for conquest.)
Any feedback on this from anyone?
If you are sending soldiers offworld, shouldn't it reduce military production? The lost production is the units leaving the planet.
An interesting effect could be a -25% military production, but every time you build a unit there you get a 50% chance that some time later (something like 10, 15, or 20 turns) you will get a free unit of the same type to represent a veteran unit returning home from the war and it could have some experience, perhaps 10 or 15xp .
Also interesting. I don't think cost or experience are very valuable, the binding constraint in the late game is simply the size of the pool."offworld" screen representing people being more willing to join your cause
How about a late game military unit for Mahdi as well?
I still think the Cymek should be more of a post-human cyborg than a Mech class unit. I don't particular like Mech as a name for that class anyway. Something like War Machine might feel more Dunish.
3) The Axolotl tank building increases the faction-wide great general production (is this possible?) by 10% per Tank (so, 10 cities means 100% increase), and gives +25% GPP in the city.
Buildings do have an iGreatGeneralRateModifier and also an iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier (for only increasing the number of points earned within your own borders).
It is also possible to assign a building to give GPP towards great generals (in fact it is possible to give "great people" points towards any unit, not just great people).
Ahriman said:Remove: Cooling systems tech, heat shields tech, nullentropy tech.
Rename techs: rename Improved Suspensors to Holtzmann Generators.
Create new techs:
Advanced Materials. Requires Plassteel.
Focused lasbeams. requires lasgun weaponry, miniaturization.
Miniaturization. Requires Mechanization.
Supertensile materials. Requires advanced materials.
Advanced Electronics. Requires Miniaturization.
Galactic religion. Requires Golden Path and Weirding Way.
Improved Generators tech. Requires Miniaturization
Change tech requirements: Change Assault doctrine to require Personal Shields and Holtzmann Generators.
Change subatomic fission to require research labs and improved generators.
Change no-fields to require Aerial tactics and Advanced Electronics.
Change atomics to require subatomic fission, supertensile materials and improved generators.
Change future tech to require no-fields and atomics.
+ Created a more logical flow from Mining into Desert Engineering.
+ Collapsed Crystal Materials, Wind Energy and Solar Energy into a single tech Energy Sources that sits between Spice Extraction and Desert Engineering.
Why?Way of Liet is gone as a tech
Name change is fine. But how many gold boosters do we need? We have the spice refinery, the guild bank and now merchant quarter. (And then maybe pilgrimage site late game.) I think that is sufficient.I would like to perhaps rename the Water Souk building at Solaris Economy to Merchant Quarter and then create a new less powerful Water Souk building at Water Economy, perhaps +15% gold, 1 Merchant slot.
It seems to me that there is a danger of us having too many standard science fiction type techs and missing that all important
I dislike this. I thought we had intended to have two BG espionage units; an early game minor unit with a few powers and then the expensive late-midgame Reverend Mother with the really strong powers. I don't like Reverend Mothers available so early.I've brought Sandworms, Water of Life and Weirding Way much earlier
To me this should be carried out through the Mahdi religion. The rise or not of the Fremen is something that may or may not happen in-game. I don't think it belongs in the tech tree.I would like to try and invoke the rising power of Muad'dib and the Fremen in the first Dune book.
Agreed. I don't think a new harvester improvement is worth having. Worms are already little enough threat to harvester operations because they destroy 1 harvester and then disppear. Spotter Control should have some kind of economy boost, and trade routes aren't too bad (and we don't have many trade boosters). The building is underpowered though, for some reason the trade boost on it was reduced. +50% foreign trade route benefit is weak. +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield?Sandworms - this is a bit of headache tech
Prescience - reqs Water of Life - Chamber of Visions wonder, allows build Espionage
new Razzia Command wonder - I am going to take the reduced War Weariness benefits of the Mudir Nahya's Dungeon for this, and make the Dungeon gives +100% Enemy War Weariness.
This is a problem. These were designed to be late game high-end super-promotions, to go with the other promotions. They are deliberately superior to "normal" promotions, and should come only from an expensive high-end tech. Not an early game tech. I would prefer to see Weirding Way at the *end* of a mystic line.Weirding Way will have Ahriman's Weirding Way promotions
I dunno; do these make sense for non-Fremen?For what are currently called Flavor Tech 1 and Flavor Tech 2 I have some vague ideas - maybe one tech called Cherem Brotherhood or Bond of Brotherhood to represent the power of the Fremen as a unified and committed force
The Golden Path tech is intended to be the beginning of the Path, not the end. If its too late, then Qizarate religion can't really benefit from it. Galactic religion was intended to be an expensive late-game tech for sinking beakers into; it fuels many "advanced" religion features. I think religions should have their two features (eg temple + cathedral) before units start getting their "third" feature.- I'm thinking perhaps Galactic Religion should come earlier than the Golden Path from a theme point of view - the Hajj and relic sellers etc comes in Dune Messiah which is quite a long time before Leto's Golden Path reaches fulfillment.
Seems fine to me.- Maula Pistols -> Defensive Armaments
- Satellites -> Guild Satellites
- Assault Doctrine -> Military Elite - seems to fit pretty well and is a bit more intuitive, could more the free Great Burseg here too.
Agreed. I'll think on it.Not sure about Liquid Fuel and Solid Fuel as names. Conceptually, this section of the tree is a bit confused.
Sounds fine to me.I'm thinking of further tidying up by having Frigate Transportation require Offworld Trade and Guild Banking instead of Academies.
Why don't we just remove Feudalism from Divine Mandate?Divine Mandate is probably the most horrendously misplaced tech
Great!I've also entered these changes from Ahriman's design so far:
Spice Economy and Arrakis Paradise are such major game choices (and have large impacts) I think they deserve their own techs.
Water Economy tech has far too much stuff, these should be distributed across multiple techs.
Deep wells should not come so early; they are a midgame tech.
Well improvements and windtrap improvements should not come at the same tech.
Water discipline civic should not come so early (its very powerful).
Name change is fine. But how many gold boosters do we need? We have the spice refinery, the guild bank and now merchant quarter. (And then maybe pilgrimage site late game.) I think that is sufficient.
I dunno. Most of the factions are not mystical. The BGs are, and some elements in the Atreides and Fremen. But for most factions, it is science and commerce and intrigue that runs their world.
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feels like a Fremen thing; does it make sense for other factions?
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I dunno; do these make sense for non-Fremen?
I don't like Reverend Mothers available so early.
More importantly, I don't like Weirding Way available so early. If there is a mystical "line", then I think Weirding Way should be at the end of it.
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This is a problem. These were designed to be late game high-end super-promotions, to go with the other promotions. They are deliberately superior to "normal" promotions, and should come only from an expensive high-end tech. Not an early game tech. I would prefer to see Weirding Way at the *end* of a mystic line.
To me this should be carried out through the Mahdi religion. The rise or not of the Fremen is something that may or may not happen in-game. I don't think it belongs in the tech tree.
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I would argue the opposite. Raids should increase enemy war weariness, while dungeons should reduce your own (imprisoning the dissenters).
But these effects on their own are weak (especially just a war weariness reduction).
Agreed. I don't think a new harvester improvement is worth having. Worms are already little enough threat to harvester operations because they destroy 1 harvester and then disppear. Spotter Control should have some kind of economy boost, and trade routes aren't too bad (and we don't have many trade boosters). The building is underpowered though, for some reason the trade boost on it was reduced. +50% foreign trade route benefit is weak. +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield?
The Golden Path tech is intended to be the beginning of the Path, not the end. If its too late, then Qizarate religion can't really benefit from it. Galactic religion was intended to be an expensive late-game tech for sinking beakers into; it fuels many "advanced" religion features. I think religions should have their two features (eg temple + cathedral) before units start getting their "third" feature.
Why don't we just remove Feudalism from Divine Mandate?
You can say "does that make sense for the non-Fremen civs?" about a lot of the technology in the tree
These make sense to me. Everyone wears stillsuits out in the desert, including Harkonnen spice workers. Everyone collects water with wind traps, even in the towns and villages. Dew collectors I guess are a bit more Fremen-only.wind traps, dew collectors, stillsuits
Agreed.but that will boil down to individual subjective opinion.
In a technical/logical sense, I agree. But in a gameplay sense it should have the same beaker cost as the other "promotion-enabling" high end techs.but I don't see why it should come after the Golden Path or Galactic Religion say
Maybe.... but a tech that does nothing but enable a single promotion, that requires *another* promotion, is going to be pretty weak.Perhaps we can space out the two levels of the promotion so that one comes earlier, the earliest tech can come after Mind Training and the later one can be called something else like Complete Physical Control?
I think we decided they weren't *different* enough. I thought our plans were to have a Sayyadina unit (trainer), a Sister unit (early espionage unit) and a Reverend Mother unit (late-game espionage unit).What happened to the ideas that were floating around for a Truthsayer unit?
Sure, I have no objection to Guerilla Tactics in principle.Fair point, but I think the concept of Guerilla Tactics is something that it is worth having for all civs as a possible strategy choice.
This is like the "Raider" trait for Fall Further. It works well there, but their terrain structure is different to ours.or pillage automatically on movement
Then perhaps give them also some espionage income, to increase their value.Agree that Razzia Command/Dungeon should be the way around you say.
I agree in principle, but I'm leery of adding more spice buildings. We could rename the Spice Silo to Spotter Control.I just don't see why Spotter Control should boost trade though. It should really boost harvesting. Perhaps we could make it a National Wonder and give it +0.5 gold per Spice or something like that.
I guess I feel that one evolves into the other, and I think of the Worm God-King Leto's religion as still being Qizarate.I think we have slightly different perspectives on the Qizarate. I associate it the religious bureaucracy of Dune Messiah, whereas you associate it more with Leto and the Golden Path.
Agreed. (Though the tech should still allow the building.) We should have a tech name that actually explains what the path *does*, especially for non Dune-lore experts.We should probably rename the Golden Path tech anyway to avoid confusion with the Golden Path Qizarate building.
Then we could increase its cost slightly. But does it give anything that is dangerous to have early? I don't think so.OK, but I thought that might mean it comes to early
Might be good to discuss some of these. *Some* beelining should be allowed. I really like the midgame tech tree flexibility, how you have much more choice in tech paths than in say vanilla civ, I don't see a problem with that. It shouldn't be *too* easy to beeline superior level military techs, but as long as they are sufficiently more expensive I don't see it as a huge problem (and my redesign toned down a few of the really big differences, particularly the Kindjal soldier).Mind you I'm going to add a lot of AND requirements anyway to prevent beelining.
Awesome.I'm also going to rename Landsraad religion to CHOAM as previously agreed
Good to know he hasn't fallen off the worldDavid seems to be quiet although he is still posting on the SDK/Python forum pretty regularly. Hopefully, he can release the local fixes he has soon.
Not sure about Liquid Fuel and Solid Fuel as names. Conceptually, this section of the tree is a bit confused.