late game tech tree

I agree. Dune seems to be a lot more about the abilities of people, and less about what newer gadgets can do for you.
 
So, this thread and issue has become somewhat stale. I'd like to throw a few more ideas out and see if we can make some progress. Better name suggestions very welcome!

Features:
7 new techs.
2 new "super-promotions" for each unit class.
1 new "advanced" feature for each religion.
High end unit rebalancing.
Extra flavor.
Monitor super-unit.

a) Technologies.
Move Lasgun Weaponry, Air Combat techs left in the tree display to be above Vendettas tech.
Remove: Cooling systems tech, heat shields tech, nullentropy tech.
Rename techs: rename Improved Suspensors to Holtzmann Generators.
Rename Military Complex to M-I Complex. (Make clear in civilopedia text that it is Military-Industrial Complex.

Create new techs:
Advanced Materials. Requires Plassteel.
Focused lasbeams. requires lasgun weaponry, miniaturization.
Miniaturization. Requires Mechanization.
Supertensile materials. Requires advanced materials.
Advanced Electronics. Requires Miniaturization.
Galactic religion. Requires Golden Path and Weirding Way.
Improved Generators tech. Requires Miniaturization

Change tech requirements: Change Assault doctrine to require Personal Shields and Holtzmann Generators.
Change subatomic fission to require research labs and improved generators.
Change no-fields to require Aerial tactics and Advanced Electronics.
Change atomics to require subatomic fission, supertensile materials and improved generators.
Change future tech to require no-fields and atomics.

b) Create new promotions:
Weirding way 1 promotion. Available only to melee units. Require Weirding Ways tech. +15% strength, +10% vs melee.
Weirding way 2 promotion. Available only to melee units. Require Weirding Ways tech, requires weirding way 1 promotion. +15% strength, +10% vs melee.
Ultralight promotion (hornet only). Requires supertensile materials tech. +2 range, +15% evasion chance.

Boosted engines promotion (vehicles, suspensors and walkers only). Requires improved generators tech. +1 movement, +10% withdraw chance.
Refractive armor promotion. Requires Advanced Materials tech (vehicles, walkers only). +15% strength, +10% vs guardsmen.
Heavy weapons promotion (guardsmen only). Requires focused lasbeam tech. +15% strength, +10% vs vehicles, walkers.
Targeting systems (guardsmen and suspensors only). Requires Advanced Electronics tech. +10% strength, +10% intercept chance, +10% vs hornets/thopters.
Extended fuel tanks (thopter only). Requires improved generators tech. Requires improved +1 movement, +10% withdraw chance.
Autofire (thopter only). Requires focused lasbeams tech. +15% strength, +10% vs melee unit.
Target-seeking missiles (hornet only). Requires advanced electronics. +15% strength, +10% intercept chance.

c) New buildings/Wonders, buildings changes.
Convention breached! World wonder. Requires House Atomics tech. 1200 hammers.
Allows all players to build Atomics units. These are ICBMs. Provides -100% foreign trade routes in all cities. When built, creates 3 Atomics units in the capital city by event).
The Hajj. World Wonder. Requires Galactic religion tech. All religious buildings of state religion +3 gold.
Pilgrimage site. Requires Galactic religion tech. Provides +2 trade routes, +50% trade route yield.
Imperial palace. National Wonder. Requires Advanced Materials tech. Requires Imperium state religion. Acts as a palace.

Projects:
Monitor Electrical System. Requires Advanced Electronics tech.
Monitor Weapons system. Requires Focused Lasbeams tech.
Monitor Hull. Requires Advanced Materials tech.
Monitor Propulsion System. Requires improved generators tech.
Monitor power system. Requires subatomic fission tech.
Once all projects completed, Event triggers that creates Monitor Warship in capital.

Buildings:
Hunter-seeker device. Requires Miniaturization. +8 espionage points.
Change automated factory, computerized research facility to require Technocracy tech.
Poison snooper. Requires Suk school. Proves +4 espionage points, +25% espionage defense.
Rename "greenhouse" to "moisture seals".
Commodities exchange. Requires Advanced Electronics tech. Requires CHOAM religion. Gives +0.5 gold per spice resource.

Nullentrophy sphere. Requires advanced materials tech. Requires Tleilaxu Zensufism state religion. Next unit created in the city gains the immortality promotion (a la FFH)?

d) Unit changes
Remove Heavy Carryall unit.
Rename Medium Carryall to Heavy carryall. (we don't need 4 levels of tranports, 3 is enough). Move to aerial tactics tech.
Move suspensor suspensor frigate to Miniaturization tech.
Move suspensor cruiser to improved generators tech.
[Also: this is weird, shouldn't destroyer > frigate, not frigate > destroyer??)
Move Tarantula mech to Focused lasbeams tech. Change to 20 strength.
No-ship.
Requires No-field tech. 3 Moves. Strength 12. Thopter class. Invisible.
Rename Hunter-seeker missile to Stone Burner. Remove can destroy tile defenses and bombard defenses. Move to subatomic fission tech.
Create Death Hand unit. Harkonnen UU. 16 strength version of Stone burner, but does only 70% colleratal damage. Requires Vendettas tech.
Rename Lasgun Trooper unit to "Lascannon Trooper". Move to Focused lasbeams tech.
Remove Inkvine Trooper unit.
Add "Howitzer" unit. Harkonnen UU, replaces missile launcher. Same as missile launcher but 10 strength instead of 8.
Add "Monitor Warship" unit. Cannot be built, comes into play (in capital) only when all 5 Monitor projects have been built. Strength 50, thopter class, 1 first strike, 6 moves, blitz. Huge unit icon, some kind of warship.

Cymek unit. Requires Cybernetics tech. Requires Technocracy religion. Mech class unit. 1 move. Stats?
Fish Speaker unit. Requires Golden Path religion. Requires Galactic religion tech. 1 move. Melee class. Stats?

Change kindjal solider to strength 16, +25% city attack.
Change fedaykin to strength 17, 2 moves, +25% vs melee.
Change sardaukar noukker to strength 18, +10% city attack, march.
Change Mongoose trooper to strength 12.
Change heavy scorpion to strength 22.
Change Devastator to strength 30, 1 move.
Change eagle thopter to strength 15.
Change dragonfly bomber to strength 16.
Change Cielago strealth bomber to strength 16.
Change heavy artillery to strength 14, increase accuracy to 90% (not sure how it works, but it currently hits way less than 75% of the time).
 
Good work on pulling these ideas together. Lots of nice stuff here. It would definitely be good to find a late game feature for Mahdi and Shai-Hulud as well.

I think until I enter these changes in and look at the amended tech tree it won't be possible to get a feel for the big picture. I'm happy to have a bash at that, but I'm not sure if it'll be this weekend.
 
Agreed. I'll think more on the late-game religion features, I ran out of inspiration.

I agree its hard to evaluate without actually mocking it up, that'd be useful to do when you have the time.
 
Any feedback on this from anyone?

To complete the design:

Mahdi "extra":
Interplanetary Jihad (building)
Requires Galactic Religion tech.
Requires Mahdi religion, Mahdi state religion.
+25% military production.

(Name is weak, maybe we can come up with something better. the idea of the intergalactic religion tech in general is that the Dune religions are spilling over into the rest of the galaxy, and so for Mahdi the Jihad is intensifying and you're starting to send soldiers offworld for conquest.)

Shai-Hulad "extra".
Palmeries. Building. +2 water, +1 happy.
Requires Shai-Hulad state religion, requies Shai-Hulad religion, requires Arrakis Transformation tech.

The idea is to help cancel out the water loss from the catchbasin/reservoir buildings, and to help support super-cities.

Cymek
Still not sure on stats for this, we need to be careful to not make it overlap too much with the Ixian Mech units (Ix favors Technocracy, so will likely have access to Cymeks).

Fish speakers.
I think a city defender melee unit makes sense; these guys are a kindof Praetorian Guard, and Quizarate should have some big cities to defend.
So... strength 16 melee unit, 2 moves (make them flexible rapid response defenders), +50% city defense, immune to first strikes. National limit 10.
 
Any feedback on this from anyone?

To complete the design:

Mahdi "extra":
Interplanetary Jihad (building)
Requires Galactic Religion tech.
Requires Mahdi religion, Mahdi state religion.
+25% military production.

(Name is weak, maybe we can come up with something better. the idea of the intergalactic religion tech in general is that the Dune religions are spilling over into the rest of the galaxy, and so for Mahdi the Jihad is intensifying and you're starting to send soldiers offworld for conquest.)

If you are sending soldiers offworld, shouldn't it reduce military production? The lost production is the units leaving the planet.

An interesting effect could be a -25% military production, but every time you build a unit there you get a 50% chance that some time later (something like 10, 15, or 20 turns) you will get a free unit of the same type to represent a veteran unit returning home from the war and it could have some experience, perhaps 10 or 15xp . It could maybe also give a small reduction in the costs of units on the "offworld" screen representing people being more willing to join your cause - perhaps a 10% reduction in cost (you couldn't make the reduction too large since a lot of it represents guild transportation fees, and such, which are not likely to decrease), or alternatively it could increase the percentage of units on that screen that are the higher experience type.
 
Any feedback on this from anyone?

I am still intending to have a go at implementing this into the XML. I should at least start sometime this week.

How about a late game military unit for Mahdi as well?

I wonder if we can make Shai Hulud more to do with the worms somehow. I get that it represents the early Fremen traditions, but it is basically seems like the water conservation religion at the moment. The link with the worms feels a bit tenuous. Alternately, we could rebrand it to something representing the water rituals and the sanctity of water amongst the Fremen.

I still think the Cymek should be more of a post-human cyborg than a Mech class unit. I don't particular like Mech as a name for that class anyway. Something like War Machine might feel more Dunish.
 
If you are sending soldiers offworld, shouldn't it reduce military production? The lost production is the units leaving the planet.

I know its a bit weak, but the idea was that increased zeal leads to higher troop volunteerism.

An interesting effect could be a -25% military production, but every time you build a unit there you get a 50% chance that some time later (something like 10, 15, or 20 turns) you will get a free unit of the same type to represent a veteran unit returning home from the war and it could have some experience, perhaps 10 or 15xp .

Interesting, but this seems overly complicated to me. I also really dislike "delayed gratification" mechanics, particularly where the delayed bonus is difficult to relate to the imminent threat (ie; the benefit is non-transparent, you don't see it when you pay the cost, adn you dont' see the cost when you receive the benefit).

It also would lead to some weird strategic placement; you would want to build it mostly in out of the way cities that weren't unit production facilities.

I think a military production bonus is more in-theme then a penalty, or we could just give them another unit.

"offworld" screen representing people being more willing to join your cause
Also interesting. I don't think cost or experience are very valuable, the binding constraint in the late game is simply the size of the pool.

However, we could have this be a National Wonder, and have it double the refresh rate of your offworld pool?

Is the offworld code clean enough that its easy to mod?

How about a late game military unit for Mahdi as well?

We could, give them another zealot-type unit.
Though I kinda like the idea of one late-game feature per religion.

If they were to get a unit, I'd give them an upgrade of the zero-upkeep Mahdi Zealot, that retained zero-upkeep. Maybe strength 12 melee unit (deliberately under-strength for tech level) at Weirding Way, that is buildable or upgrades from the zealot?

*Or* dont' make it buildable, but give it the same cost as the Zealot, so it upgrades for free.

I dunno about Shai-Hulad and worms. The point of Shai-Hulad was the traditional way of the ordinary people of Dune; worm-worship by the Fremen, but also the basic way of life of the Pyon villages and the people of the pan and graben (villagers/townsfolk), as opposed to offworld ways. Basically a life of quite toil, traditional beliefs, and water conservation.

Worshiping worms doesn't really *do* anything. They're not an actual deity; they are indifferent to worship. And we want to keep the religion separate from being Fremeny; riding worms should be a Fremen only thing, non-Fremen followers of Shai-Hulad should not be able to get worm-riding units. And other than that, what do worms do for you?

So yeah, the religion ends up being a "Water" religion, in the same way as Mahdi is a military religion, Imperial is culture/diplomacy, CHOAM is trade, etc. This doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

I would have no objection to renaming the religion if you can think of a better name; I would rather rename than change the design goal.

I still think the Cymek should be more of a post-human cyborg than a Mech class unit. I don't particular like Mech as a name for that class anyway. Something like War Machine might feel more Dunish.

I have no opinion on the class name, I think the Ix units were originally Walker and then were changed to Mech. I think the Cymek should be the same combat type as these, whatever we call it, so it is eligible for . War machine feels a bit too similar to "vehicle", but that isn't a big problem.

The Cymeks in the (terrible) Butlerian Jihad prequel books (well, I only read the first one) basically had mech-like battle suits, which is what I had in mind. Take the brain, put it into a war of the worlds-ish Fighting Machine. Were you thinking a more robo-cop type theme - a bipedal man-sized infantry unit with superior targeting and endurance?
 
Edits made above.

* * *
Also, I had another idea for Tleilaxu ghola implementation.

Is it possible to adapt Great General mechanics for Tleilaxu?

I would implement it as follows:
1) Replace Great Generals with Gholas for Tleilaxu civ.
2) A Ghola has two abilities; add to city (same as for a regular GG, permanent XP bonus for units) or add to unit. The add to unit function adds the "Ghola commander" promotion to the unit (instead of giving XP). "Ghola commander" functions the same as the FFH Immortality promotion; when the unit is killed, it reappears in the capital city (damaged) instead of dying.
3) The Axolotl tank building increases the faction-wide great general production (is this possible?) by 10% per Tank (so, 10 cities means 100% increase), and gives +25% GPP in the city.
4) The Nullentropy Sphere building (which could have a cap of 5) gives a further +15% great general production, and creates (by Event) a free Ghola unit in your capital when created.
 
3) The Axolotl tank building increases the faction-wide great general production (is this possible?) by 10% per Tank (so, 10 cities means 100% increase), and gives +25% GPP in the city.

Buildings do have an iGreatGeneralRateModifier and also an iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier (for only increasing the number of points earned within your own borders).

It is also possible to assign a building to give GPP towards great generals (in fact it is possible to give "great people" points towards any unit, not just great people).
 
Buildings do have an iGreatGeneralRateModifier and also an iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier (for only increasing the number of points earned within your own borders).

It is also possible to assign a building to give GPP towards great generals (in fact it is possible to give "great people" points towards any unit, not just great people).

Excellent, that's what I thought (I wasn't sure if it was in the standard dll or just in the Fall Further codebase that we use for Warhammer.)

I think I would keep them separate, so that Tleilaxu get Great General gholas for combat units, and regular great people. So an Axolotl Tank boosts both ghola production for the military aspect, but also boosts great people production (through selective breeding).

The problem with giving great general points to buildings is that it reduces the number of other specialists they get.

Another alternative design would be to merge them on the Ghola unit, so that the Ghola Great General replacement could either attach to a unit as an immortality-granting commander, OR settle in a city as a great specialist, like the Sidar Shade.
And then the buildings could provide Ghola GPPs.

[Also, I would really love it if we could somehow replace priests and Great Priests with Masters for Tleilaxu. Functionally identical, and the Tleilaxu wonders that benefit Priests would benefit Masters instead.]

* * *
Edit: to clarify.

Option A: Ghola unit represents the "military" side of ghola technology, civilian side is left with normal great people
1) Replace Great Generals with Gholas for Tleilaxu civ.
2) A Ghola has two abilities; add to city (same as for a regular GG, permanent XP bonus for units) or add to unit. The add to unit function adds the "Ghola commander" promotion to the unit (instead of giving XP). "Ghola commander" functions the same as the FFH Immortality promotion; when the unit is killed, it reappears in the capital city (damaged) instead of dying.
3) The Axolotl tank building increases the faction-wide great general production (using iGreatGeneralRateModifier) by 10% per Tank (so, 10 cities means 100% increase), and gives +20% GPP in the city.
4) The Nullentropy Sphere building (which could have a cap of 5) gives a further +10% great general production, +30% GPPs, and creates (by Event) a free Ghola unit in your capital when created.

Option B: Ghola unit represents both military and civilian side of ghola technology.
1) Replace Great Generals with Gholas for Tleilaxu civ.
2) Ghola has 5 abilities: Attach to unit, Settle as Trader, Settle as Techman, Settle as Scientist, Settle as Priest.
The first adds the Ghola Commander promotion as above.
The others create regular permanent great people, like a Sidar shade.
3) The Axolotl Tank building gives +3 Ghola great people points.
4) The Nullentropy Sphere building gives a further +3 ghola great people points, and creates a Ghola by Event when constructed.


The disadvantage of A) is that it could arguably feel weird to have a Ghola unit that was *only* a military commander.
The disadvantages of B) is that it could feel weird to have successes on the battlefield leading to civilian specialists [I'd make the argument that they're collecting genetic samples from defeated enemies], and that the AI would likely always choose to settle their gholas as specialists rather than make immortal units (since it wouldn't understand the benfits from immortality).
 
Hi i've only been playing your mod for a little while, but i'm a huge Dune fan. I like the idea about the ghola generals.. Option A.
Although wouldn't you need to cap the bonus form the Axolotl tank, what if you ended up with lots of citys....(I know it would be hard to have lots of city but not impossible)

Also I don't think you should use the Cymeks. There way to powerful and would unbalance the game. They did have many different size mek bodies, but if you introduce them your gonna have to bring in the Thinking Machines.... Omnius and Erasmus would change it too much.
Well thants my oppinion.
I do like the mod! Keep up the good work.:goodjob:
 
Marius, thanks for the comments.

I'm not sure if we'd have to cap it, we'd really have to playtest for balance to see.

A cymek isn't going to have to be an absolute "supermachine", like Agammemnon and the original cymeks. It can be a much weaker modern version.

But we *are* bringing in the possibility of Thinking Machines; this is what the Technocracy religion represents, the slow recreation of artificial intelligence, computers and robotics. The cymek unit would be available only to followers of the technocracy religion.

While the Ixian mech units are really just vehicles with pilots, a Cymek unit would be some kind of actual cyborg, with a human directly wired into the machine.
 
OK, so I've made a start on the XML for this. As well as entering in Ahriman's ideas, I have also gone through the tech tree trying to address a few things that I found irritating and making more of a rational flow to the techs from a theme perspective.

Tech Tree Image

In no particular order, these are the changes I've made so far:

+ Created a more logical flow from Mining into Desert Engineering.

+ Collapsed Crystal Materials, Wind Energy and Solar Energy into a single tech Energy Sources that sits between Spice Extraction and Desert Engineering. What used to follow on from Wind/Solar Energy never made much sense to me theme-wise. If there is too much good stuff for one tech then we can fit add another tech back in, or move one of the benefits.

+ Created a more natural flow from Desert Plantation through to Planetary Ecology. Way of Liet is gone as a tech so Planetary Ecology enables the Arrakis Paradise civic. There is a new tech between Adapted Agriculture and Planetary Ecology called Water Economy. This has +1 commerce for Wind Traps, Water Discipline civic, Deep Well improvement and Fai Water Tribute wonder. I would like to perhaps rename the Water Souk building at Solaris Economy to Merchant Quarter and then create a new less powerful Water Souk building at Water Economy, perhaps +15% gold, 1 Merchant slot.

+ I've carved out some room along the bottom for some more thematic mystical type techs. It seems to me that there is a danger of us having too many standard science fiction type techs and missing that all important Dunishness. I've brought Sandworms, Water of Life and Weirding Way much earlier, this allows Reverend Mothers to go back on Water of Life and also there is no room for some more thematic techs. I would like to try and invoke the rising power of Muad'dib and the Fremen in the first Dune book.
Comments on techs in this mystical type branch:
- Sandworms - this is a bit of headache tech - on one level it makes sense to have a tech that represents understanding the worms, the worm cycle, etc, but the current Spotters Command building is a bit of a relic in my opinion, +50% foreign trade route yield? Something to do with Spotters would definitely make sense for this tech. I thought perhaps we could have a new Spice Harvester + Spotters improvement (Harvesting Operation?), that has a 50% chance of not being destroy when attacked by a worm? We could have a graphic that is a harvester with some mini-thopters circling around. Just a thought. Any other ideas for what benefits a greater understanding of the worms would give?
- Prescience - reqs Water of Life - Chamber of Visions wonder, allows build Espionage
- Guerilla Tactics - reqs Weirding Way - Razzia Raider unit, new Razzia Command wonder - I am going to take the reduced War Weariness benefits of the Mudir Nahya's Dungeon for this, and make the Dungeon gives +100% Enemy War Weariness.
- Weirding Way will have Ahriman's Weirding Way promotions
- I have called the tech that enables the Breeding Project IV - Kwizatz Haderach unit - Shortening of the Way for now.
- For what are currently called Flavor Tech 1 and Flavor Tech 2 I have some vague ideas - maybe one tech called Cherem Brotherhood or Bond of Brotherhood to represent the power of the Fremen as a unified and committed force - following on from Guerilla Tactics - this can hold the Naib's chosen unit and possibly the upgrade Mahdi Zealot unit which can perhaps be called Mahdi Mujahid.
- not sure exactly where we want Arrakis Transformation to come in this chain, but we can move things around a bit.
- I'm thinking perhaps Galactic Religion should come earlier than the Golden Path from a theme point of view - the Hajj and relic sellers etc comes in Dune Messiah which is quite a long time before Leto's Golden Path reaches fulfillment.
- There is room for another new tech before or after Mind Training if we want.

+ Renamed a few techs:
- Maula Pistols -> Defensive Armaments
- Satellites -> Guild Satellites
- Assault Doctrine -> Military Elite - seems to fit pretty well and is a bit more intuitive, could more the free Great Burseg here too.

Points for thought:
1. Not sure about Liquid Fuel and Solid Fuel as names. Conceptually, this section of the tree is a bit confused. More so now that we have Holtzmann Generators up there. If you have the Holzmann effect why do you need other power sources? And how does Solid Fuel lead to Lasgun Weaponry? Some new names might sort this out.

2. Happily I have successfully untangled the spaghetti so that there are no crossing arrows around Genetic Manipulation any more. I'm thinking of further tidying up by having Frigate Transportation require Offworld Trade and Guild Banking instead of Academies.

3. Divine Mandate is probably the most horrendously misplaced tech. Compared with Jihad below it can 7 more steps to reach it. It should really be after the Feudalism bottleneck with the other 4 things that follow on from that. There is really no way to fix this unless we change a requirement or two. My best suggestion is that if we made Law of Arrakis follow Education rather than Feudalism we can have Divine Mandate takes its place and be in a more correct position.

I've also entered these changes from Ahriman's design so far:
Spoiler :
Ahriman said:
Remove: Cooling systems tech, heat shields tech, nullentropy tech.
Rename techs: rename Improved Suspensors to Holtzmann Generators.

Create new techs:
Advanced Materials. Requires Plassteel.
Focused lasbeams. requires lasgun weaponry, miniaturization.
Miniaturization. Requires Mechanization.
Supertensile materials. Requires advanced materials.
Advanced Electronics. Requires Miniaturization.
Galactic religion. Requires Golden Path and Weirding Way.
Improved Generators tech. Requires Miniaturization

Change tech requirements: Change Assault doctrine to require Personal Shields and Holtzmann Generators.
Change subatomic fission to require research labs and improved generators.
Change no-fields to require Aerial tactics and Advanced Electronics.
Change atomics to require subatomic fission, supertensile materials and improved generators.
Change future tech to require no-fields and atomics.

Anyway, there is a fair bit more work to do just to get Ahriman's design keyed in, so I thought I'd seek opinions on my other changes in the meantime.

Edit: I also intend to enter AND requirements wherever possible to reduce the beelining possibilities.
 
Wow, great to see; clearly lots of work and thought. Thanks!

However, I would like to discuss some of the design changes before we finalize them.

+ Created a more logical flow from Mining into Desert Engineering.
+ Collapsed Crystal Materials, Wind Energy and Solar Energy into a single tech Energy Sources that sits between Spice Extraction and Desert Engineering.

Looks good to me.

Way of Liet is gone as a tech
Why?

Spice Economy and Arrakis Paradise are such major game choices (and have large impacts) I think they deserve their own techs.

Water Economy tech has far too much stuff, these should be distributed across multiple techs.
Deep wells should not come so early; they are a midgame tech.
Well improvements and windtrap improvements should not come at the same tech.
Water discipline civic should not come so early (its very powerful).

I would like to perhaps rename the Water Souk building at Solaris Economy to Merchant Quarter and then create a new less powerful Water Souk building at Water Economy, perhaps +15% gold, 1 Merchant slot.
Name change is fine. But how many gold boosters do we need? We have the spice refinery, the guild bank and now merchant quarter. (And then maybe pilgrimage site late game.) I think that is sufficient.

It seems to me that there is a danger of us having too many standard science fiction type techs and missing that all important

I dunno. Most of the factions are not mystical. The BGs are, and some elements in the Atreides and Fremen. But for most factions, it is science and commerce and intrigue that runs their world. There just isnt' enough mystical stuff that makes sense for the other factions to make it too much of the game.
And those techs look very empty. Similarly; Shortening of the Way only really makes sense for the BGs. Not sure its sensible as a general tech.

I've brought Sandworms, Water of Life and Weirding Way much earlier
I dislike this. I thought we had intended to have two BG espionage units; an early game minor unit with a few powers and then the expensive late-midgame Reverend Mother with the really strong powers. I don't like Reverend Mothers available so early.

More importantly, I don't like Weirding Way available so early. If there is a mystical "line", then I think Weirding Way should be at the end of it.

I would like to try and invoke the rising power of Muad'dib and the Fremen in the first Dune book.
To me this should be carried out through the Mahdi religion. The rise or not of the Fremen is something that may or may not happen in-game. I don't think it belongs in the tech tree.

Sandworms - this is a bit of headache tech
Agreed. I don't think a new harvester improvement is worth having. Worms are already little enough threat to harvester operations because they destroy 1 harvester and then disppear. Spotter Control should have some kind of economy boost, and trade routes aren't too bad (and we don't have many trade boosters). The building is underpowered though, for some reason the trade boost on it was reduced. +50% foreign trade route benefit is weak. +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield?

Prescience - reqs Water of Life - Chamber of Visions wonder, allows build Espionage

Weak, as a tech. Build espionage is nearly useless, and a Wonder is useless to anyone who isn't first to the tech.

new Razzia Command wonder - I am going to take the reduced War Weariness benefits of the Mudir Nahya's Dungeon for this, and make the Dungeon gives +100% Enemy War Weariness.

I would argue the opposite. Raids should increase enemy war weariness, while dungeons should reduce your own (imprisoning the dissenters).
But these effects on their own are weak (especially just a war weariness reduction).
Besides, Razzia feels like a Fremen thing; does it make sense for other factions?

Weirding Way will have Ahriman's Weirding Way promotions
This is a problem. These were designed to be late game high-end super-promotions, to go with the other promotions. They are deliberately superior to "normal" promotions, and should come only from an expensive high-end tech. Not an early game tech. I would prefer to see Weirding Way at the *end* of a mystic line.

For what are currently called Flavor Tech 1 and Flavor Tech 2 I have some vague ideas - maybe one tech called Cherem Brotherhood or Bond of Brotherhood to represent the power of the Fremen as a unified and committed force
I dunno; do these make sense for non-Fremen?

- I'm thinking perhaps Galactic Religion should come earlier than the Golden Path from a theme point of view - the Hajj and relic sellers etc comes in Dune Messiah which is quite a long time before Leto's Golden Path reaches fulfillment.
The Golden Path tech is intended to be the beginning of the Path, not the end. If its too late, then Qizarate religion can't really benefit from it. Galactic religion was intended to be an expensive late-game tech for sinking beakers into; it fuels many "advanced" religion features. I think religions should have their two features (eg temple + cathedral) before units start getting their "third" feature.

- Maula Pistols -> Defensive Armaments
- Satellites -> Guild Satellites
- Assault Doctrine -> Military Elite - seems to fit pretty well and is a bit more intuitive, could more the free Great Burseg here too.
Seems fine to me.

Not sure about Liquid Fuel and Solid Fuel as names. Conceptually, this section of the tree is a bit confused.
Agreed. I'll think on it.

I'm thinking of further tidying up by having Frigate Transportation require Offworld Trade and Guild Banking instead of Academies.
Sounds fine to me.

Divine Mandate is probably the most horrendously misplaced tech
Why don't we just remove Feudalism from Divine Mandate?

I've also entered these changes from Ahriman's design so far:
Great!
All those high-end techs should probably have equal and very high tech costs.
 
Spice Economy and Arrakis Paradise are such major game choices (and have large impacts) I think they deserve their own techs.

Water Economy tech has far too much stuff, these should be distributed across multiple techs.
Deep wells should not come so early; they are a midgame tech.
Well improvements and windtrap improvements should not come at the same tech.
Water discipline civic should not come so early (its very powerful).

OK, I'll drop Prescience which is lame as you say, and put Way of Liet into that position and spread the stuff more.

Name change is fine. But how many gold boosters do we need? We have the spice refinery, the guild bank and now merchant quarter. (And then maybe pilgrimage site late game.) I think that is sufficient.

You may be right. I was just thinking it might be nice to have Water Souk here as this tech represents the water based economy of the Fremen in my mind. Since, as you mentioned, we don't have many trade boosters we could make Merchant Quarter at Solaris Economy a trade booster. It would stack with the Free Trade civic available at that tech but that might be OK.

I dunno. Most of the factions are not mystical. The BGs are, and some elements in the Atreides and Fremen. But for most factions, it is science and commerce and intrigue that runs their world.
...
feels like a Fremen thing; does it make sense for other factions?
...
I dunno; do these make sense for non-Fremen?

True, but remember you can play the mod as Mahdi Harkonnen or Shai-Hulud Corrino so to a certain extent there are "what if?" scenarios to be played out. You can say "does that make sense for the non-Fremen civs?" about a lot of the technology in the tree - wind traps, dew collectors, stillsuits - if you don't allow other civs to make use of Fremen technologies, ways of living and strategies then we really close down our options. The Fremen should be particularly good at the Fremen way of life, but they shouldn't be the only ones to be able to follow it. I suppose there is line where "what ifs" becomes too unthematic, but that will boil down to individual subjective opinion.

I don't like Reverend Mothers available so early.

OK, we can move things around so that they come later. What happened to the ideas that were floating around for a Truthsayer unit?

More importantly, I don't like Weirding Way available so early. If there is a mystical "line", then I think Weirding Way should be at the end of it.
...
This is a problem. These were designed to be late game high-end super-promotions, to go with the other promotions. They are deliberately superior to "normal" promotions, and should come only from an expensive high-end tech. Not an early game tech. I would prefer to see Weirding Way at the *end* of a mystic line.

Not sure that makes sense to me conceptually. The Weirding Way is just a martial art/style of fighting that relies on control of the mind and the body. I can see that it should perhaps come after Mind Training, but I don't see why it should come after the Golden Path or Galactic Religion say. In the chronology of Dune it is not a later technology. Perhaps we can space out the two levels of the promotion so that one comes earlier, the earliest tech can come after Mind Training and the later one can be called something else like Complete Physical Control?

To me this should be carried out through the Mahdi religion. The rise or not of the Fremen is something that may or may not happen in-game. I don't think it belongs in the tech tree.
...
I would argue the opposite. Raids should increase enemy war weariness, while dungeons should reduce your own (imprisoning the dissenters).
But these effects on their own are weak (especially just a war weariness reduction).

Fair point, but I think the concept of Guerilla Tactics is something that it is worth having for all civs as a possible strategy choice. Another idea I have for that which I didn't post was to have pillaging based promotions like the ones in this Modcomp that yield more gold from pillaging or pillage automatically on movement (I know "the AI wouldn't get it"). Also, it might be good to have the vanilla type Guerilla promotion back so that it only gives a boost on Mesa and perhaps Outcrops, but not Sink - but that would need SDK fixing.

Agree that Razzia Command/Dungeon should be the way around you say.

Agreed. I don't think a new harvester improvement is worth having. Worms are already little enough threat to harvester operations because they destroy 1 harvester and then disppear. Spotter Control should have some kind of economy boost, and trade routes aren't too bad (and we don't have many trade boosters). The building is underpowered though, for some reason the trade boost on it was reduced. +50% foreign trade route benefit is weak. +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield?

I just don't see why Spotter Control should boost trade though. It should really boost harvesting. Perhaps we could make it a National Wonder and give it +0.5 gold per Spice or something like that.

The Golden Path tech is intended to be the beginning of the Path, not the end. If its too late, then Qizarate religion can't really benefit from it. Galactic religion was intended to be an expensive late-game tech for sinking beakers into; it fuels many "advanced" religion features. I think religions should have their two features (eg temple + cathedral) before units start getting their "third" feature.

I think we have slightly different perspectives on the Qizarate. I associate it the religious bureaucracy of Dune Messiah, whereas you associate it more with Leto and the Golden Path. Not a biggie though. We should probably rename the Golden Path tech anyway to avoid confusion with the Golden Path Qizarate building.

Why don't we just remove Feudalism from Divine Mandate?

OK, but I thought that might mean it comes to early. Mind you I'm going to add a lot of AND requirements anyway to prevent beelining.

I'm also going to rename Landsraad religion to CHOAM as previously agreed - fix the logos etc. I should probably also review the 1.7 feedback thread and see what other fixes and tweaks are outstanding.

David seems to be quiet although he is still posting on the SDK/Python forum pretty regularly. Hopefully, he can release the local fixes he has soon.
 
You can say "does that make sense for the non-Fremen civs?" about a lot of the technology in the tree

I agree. There is certainly a judgement call to be made on an individual basis.

wind traps, dew collectors, stillsuits
These make sense to me. Everyone wears stillsuits out in the desert, including Harkonnen spice workers. Everyone collects water with wind traps, even in the towns and villages. Dew collectors I guess are a bit more Fremen-only.

but that will boil down to individual subjective opinion.
Agreed.

but I don't see why it should come after the Golden Path or Galactic Religion say
In a technical/logical sense, I agree. But in a gameplay sense it should have the same beaker cost as the other "promotion-enabling" high end techs.
But in the "old" tech-tree it didn't require either Golden Path or Galactic religion, and it was still a very late-game tech. I forget the exact requirements.
I'm flexible about the exact requirements, as long as its near the to of the tree.

Perhaps we can space out the two levels of the promotion so that one comes earlier, the earliest tech can come after Mind Training and the later one can be called something else like Complete Physical Control?
Maybe.... but a tech that does nothing but enable a single promotion, that requires *another* promotion, is going to be pretty weak.

What happened to the ideas that were floating around for a Truthsayer unit?
I think we decided they weren't *different* enough. I thought our plans were to have a Sayyadina unit (trainer), a Sister unit (early espionage unit) and a Reverend Mother unit (late-game espionage unit).

Fair point, but I think the concept of Guerilla Tactics is something that it is worth having for all civs as a possible strategy choice.
Sure, I have no objection to Guerilla Tactics in principle.
But Guerilla Tactics doesn't feel like it should be a tech that enables only a single Wonder and a UU for a single faction.

or pillage automatically on movement
This is like the "Raider" trait for Fall Further. It works well there, but their terrain structure is different to ours.
Pillage automatically on move does work ok for the AI, it increasees their pillaging over no pillaging. Might be too powerful in the hand of the human player, but...
I have no objection though.

An interesting thought; we could retool the Razzia Raider as a pillage-on-move unit with a decent withdraw chance but relatively low strength. So it isn't primarily a combat unit.
We could also consider adding a Raider trait to some Thopters, that currently feel underpowered.

Agree that Razzia Command/Dungeon should be the way around you say.
Then perhaps give them also some espionage income, to increase their value.

I just don't see why Spotter Control should boost trade though. It should really boost harvesting. Perhaps we could make it a National Wonder and give it +0.5 gold per Spice or something like that.
I agree in principle, but I'm leery of adding more spice buildings. We could rename the Spice Silo to Spotter Control.

I think we have slightly different perspectives on the Qizarate. I associate it the religious bureaucracy of Dune Messiah, whereas you associate it more with Leto and the Golden Path.
I guess I feel that one evolves into the other, and I think of the Worm God-King Leto's religion as still being Qizarate.

We should probably rename the Golden Path tech anyway to avoid confusion with the Golden Path Qizarate building.
Agreed. (Though the tech should still allow the building.) We should have a tech name that actually explains what the path *does*, especially for non Dune-lore experts.
How about some mix of: "Enforced stability", "Guided growth-path", "Prescient Trajectory", "Hydraulic Despotism", "Spice Monopolization", "Stable Destiny", "Benevolent Tyranny".

OK, but I thought that might mean it comes to early
Then we could increase its cost slightly. But does it give anything that is dangerous to have early? I don't think so.

Mind you I'm going to add a lot of AND requirements anyway to prevent beelining.
Might be good to discuss some of these. *Some* beelining should be allowed. I really like the midgame tech tree flexibility, how you have much more choice in tech paths than in say vanilla civ, I don't see a problem with that. It shouldn't be *too* easy to beeline superior level military techs, but as long as they are sufficiently more expensive I don't see it as a huge problem (and my redesign toned down a few of the really big differences, particularly the Kindjal soldier).

I'm also going to rename Landsraad religion to CHOAM as previously agreed
Awesome.

David seems to be quiet although he is still posting on the SDK/Python forum pretty regularly. Hopefully, he can release the local fixes he has soon.
Good to know he hasn't fallen off the world :)
 
Spotter control ideas (not sure how good these are, but hopefully help you guys out):

Chance to resist pillage within some area (city cross most likely.)

Automatic thumper promotion to units built in the city

Prevent worms from going within a certain area (probably city cross)

Provides the ability to place a thumper near the city every few turns. (I'm not sure whether this would be easy to code if it were used.)
 
Thanks for the ideas Pickly. Unfortunately I think those effects are all too weak to really be of enough value to be worth constructing the building.
 
Not sure about Liquid Fuel and Solid Fuel as names. Conceptually, this section of the tree is a bit confused.

A thought; instead of being "fuels", these could be weapons.

IIRC the liquid fuel gives missile launchers, missile troopers and a bomber.

So maybe it should be "Rocketry" or "Improved missiles" or "Guidance chip" or "Rocket Engines" or something.

Solid fuel (which gives the assault cannon and... something else??) could be "Heavy Cannon" or "Siege tactics" or "Shield penetration" or "explosive shells" or something.

We could remove the desert tile yield bonus from "weather scanner building" and just make that a trade booster, and then make "Spotter control" a tile yield booster for desert tiles (+1h1c). The idea being that trade/transport/spice harvesting over desert is much safer/more profitable if you have worm spotters nearby.
 
Top Bottom