Memphus says:
but a trade agreement would of left you with more flexibility earlier with us?
Niklas Broberg says:
flexibility how?
Memphus says:
in trading or getting out of with them.
Niklas Broberg says:
well, we were not really inflexible, only that at that point you had nothing that we had not already traded for, even if we didn't actually have it in hand
Memphus says:
well there is always MC. and that is still out there.
Niklas Broberg says:
and we were interested in MC from the beginning, but you made clear then that you would not trade it
Memphus says:
well we would of, but nnot for just alpha.
Niklas Broberg says:
and when we actually made you a suggestion for it, you tried to go to Kaz to get a better deal
Memphus says:
especially after the intercepted message.
Niklas Broberg says:
intercepted message?
Memphus says:
youll have to ask your team about that.
Niklas Broberg says:
oh, you mean the missent one?
Memphus says:
Niklas Broberg says:
I was under the impression that you had deleted that without reading
Niklas Broberg says:
I must say it is somewhat disappointing to hear that's not true, since it was clearly an OOC mishap never meant for your ears
Memphus says:
Yeah i know it would seem that way
Memphus says:
several leaders read it before realizing what it was.
Memphus says:
We asked Admin for a ruling
Niklas Broberg says:
well, it would obviously not have been possible to rule anything about it
Niklas Broberg says:
all we could ask of you was to do the honorable thing
Memphus says:
yeah but as I had said a number of us had read it prior to getting the next letter asking us not to open the other one.
Memphus says:
at that point forgetting what you have read is hard to do.
Memphus says:
I think we have been very fair in trying to not let that letter guide us, but at the same time....Alpha for MC was a ludacris trade and we knew it.
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm trying to find the letter to see what it actually said
Niklas Broberg says:
what I remember from it was that it was a letter to MS trying to get them onboard with some longterm plans
Niklas Broberg says:
but as you may have realized, they are quite hard to communicate with
Memphus says:
they are beyond difficult
Memphus says:
no participation i think?
Memphus says:
it was a lette rto MS yes
Niklas Broberg says:
ah yes, I found it now
Niklas Broberg says:
I take it you have at least deleted all your copies of it?
Niklas Broberg says:
I honestly don't see how anyone could read more than three sentences of that mail without realizing it wasn't for SANCTA eyes...
Niklas Broberg says:
"...to fool SANCTA..."
Memphus says:
yeah the exact wording escpaes me now
Memphus says:
i jsut remeber the jist of it.
Niklas Broberg says:
well, the thing was that MS didn't want to appear to be trading with us, since they wanted to seem towards you as if they didn't have any agreements yet
Niklas Broberg says:
but they had agreed to research sailing for us, and we needed it
Memphus says:
as for the answer about deleted it or not, i wasn't avoiding the subject
Niklas Broberg says:
but they didn't want to give it to us since you would be able to see that, so we offered something else in compensation "to fool you"
Memphus says:
Obviously as we asked the mods what to do, they said that the rest of the team should be informed of the infomation in the letter. So a copy of the email is in our forum for any new members to see. And as you can tell, we are getting new members all of the time
Niklas Broberg says:
WHAT???!!!
Niklas Broberg says:
quite frankly, that makes me totally pissed off
Niklas Broberg says:
not at you, but at the mods
Niklas Broberg says:
that's totally ridiculous
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm of a mind to call the game null and void, just because this is so absurd
Memphus says:
well....
Memphus says:
the 4 people that read it were the most active team leaders
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm not angry at you, so please don't defend it
Memphus says:
no i understand for sure
Memphus says:
hence why we went to mods ASAP
Niklas Broberg says:
the least they could have done is to inform us
Memphus says:
but this is why the mods had no choice...
Memphus says:
because the 4 that read it control most of the day to day
Memphus says:
if it wasn't posted we we have 2 tier citizenship
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm baffled
Niklas Broberg says:
oyzar contacted General_W literally seconds after sending that mail, asking that it would be immediately deleted
Niklas Broberg says:
and you are saying 4 people still read it despite this?
Memphus says:
no 4 people read it before we knew
Niklas Broberg says:
4 people read it within seconds?
Memphus says:
as you can tell myself and others are quite active
Memphus says:
time for oyzar sending to G_W doesn't = time for G_W to tell us.
Memphus says:
i had the email open within 1 second of it comming though
Niklas Broberg says:
sure, but as I said, reading 3 sentences should have told you it was not for your eyes
Memphus says:
if you assume i read top down.
Niklas Broberg says:
that would be a reasonable assumption, no?
Memphus says:
usually yes. for a computer engineer no
Niklas Broberg says:
heh, I am one too and I don't see why we should be different
Memphus says:
first paragraphs are usualy nicety's and stuff.
Memphus says:
the meat is usually near the end!
Niklas Broberg says:
well, this is an unfortunate mistake that our own team are originally responsible for
Niklas Broberg says:
and there is no going back from the fact that you have read the letter
Niklas Broberg says:
but there is also no going back from the fact that you having read the letter completely upsets any diplomatic balance this game has, to the point where the game itself becomes completely boring
Niklas Broberg says:
my current (admittedly somewhat upset) feeling is that there's no point continuing
Memphus says:
strange I disagree
Memphus says:
well 5 players is generally boring anyway, but that is besides the point.
Memphus says:
also you can't assumer we got all our info from 1 letter
Niklas Broberg says:
and also you can't assume that the letter is the actual truth, seeing how it was to a large part propaganda for MS' ears
Niklas Broberg says:
that's not really the point though
Memphus says:
that is the other consideration
Memphus says:
we actually debated if it was sent to us intentionally.
Memphus says:
for the most part alot of the stuff in the letter isn't interesting.
Niklas Broberg says:
indeed, but it is decidedly and deliberately anti-sancta
Memphus says:
yeah but we already knew everyone hated us for getting the oracle
Memphus says:
and we knew you and kaz were trading and wanted to get MS with you.
Niklas Broberg says:
"We hope to be able to fool SANCTA into trading us Metal Casting for Alphabet. Alphabet is nearly useless by itself, so giving them that doesn't hurt us much, but getting Metal Casting would save us siginifcant beakers at some point. SANCTA also have yet to meet Saturn and as such can't utilize it properly. What do you think of this idea?"
Niklas Broberg says:
I take it this was what you were referring to originally?
Memphus says:
yeah that is the part.
Memphus says:
but we arn't dense players we knew that about alpha and MC
Memphus says:
and we saw MS score increasing indicating tech trades with you and KAz.
Memphus says:
so we knew Alpha would get us no where with MS.
Niklas Broberg says:
the fact remains thought that you sent us an offer trading MC for Alpha
Memphus says:
yes it does.
Memphus says:
but did we offer a straight deal?
Niklas Broberg says:
so how do you then explain the fact that you now say you were not interested in such a trade?
Niklas Broberg says:
it was a straight deal, though with some restrictions on our part on its usage
Memphus says:
i believe there were many conditions on it.
Niklas Broberg says:
yes, we wouldn't trade it away before turn 100, and we would not build the colossus
Memphus says:
we were in the mindset of negotiations
Memphus says:
In any event we arn't unhappy with the current situation of the game.
Niklas Broberg says:
well, that's a different beast entirely
Niklas Broberg says:
you noted that MC was still on the table, and I noted that we did agree to a trade that you had proposed, only to find you had gone to someone else looking for a better deal
Memphus says:
as I said we were in negotiations. on a powerful monopoly tech. We also knew of yours and Kaz relationship so really we had to ask if we were willing to let both of you have MC for Alpha
Niklas Broberg says:
and yet that's what you offered us, wasn't it?
Niklas Broberg says:
so the offer were only empty words then, to see our hand?
Memphus says:
no not at all
Niklas Broberg says:
then what?
Memphus says:
we offered an alliance
Memphus says:
and you refused.
Niklas Broberg says:
not at all
Niklas Broberg says:
no message from you (and I have the inbox open) has mentioned a suggestion or offer for an alliance
Memphus says:
in chats with G_W...
Niklas Broberg says:
G_W was quite clear on the fact that you would welcome an offer of an alliance with open arms, yes
Niklas Broberg says:
that's not the same thing as an offer, and we were also quite clear with the position we found ourselves in at the time
Memphus says:
yes which was prohibitng you on entering an alliance with us, due to your current agreement with kaz
Niklas Broberg says:
indeed, but it was not something that would have blocked a trade between us
Niklas Broberg says:
"Namaste Niklas,
The Ninjas salute the wise and mighty Cavaleiros.
We were very pleased to hear that you’ve decided you’d like to make a deal with us for OB and a tech trade to get Metal Casting.
Unfortunately – when we never heard back from you, we went ahead and pursued another trade for Alphabet… and (even though it’s not 100% final yet) it looks like we’re going to get Alphabet plus another"
Memphus says:
no
Memphus says:
*sorry didn't finish what i was typing
Memphus says:
ok on your first point: you are right and it didn't stop us
Memphus says:
but you next post (the quote) is exactly why we stopped
Memphus says:
we sent letter to you and Kaz at the same time seeing what we could get for MC (reasonably understandable no?)
Memphus says:
your offer you know about. Kaz's was better. so we informed you right away.
Memphus says:
as it turned out neither trade happened, and as I said before we arn't unhappy with the way thigns went.
Niklas Broberg says:
obviously you now have a similar agreement with Saturn, which is what was to be expected all along
Niklas Broberg says:
and you were able to get alpha from them instead, which opens the possibility of you trading for something else from us for MC
Memphus says:
correct
Niklas Broberg says:
though I honestly doubt that will happen at this point, due to the way many on our team felt snubbed on the last trade
Niklas Broberg says:
what you sent us was not a letter asking what you could get for MC
Niklas Broberg says:
it was a proposal for a tech trade
Niklas Broberg says:
when we agreed to that some 5 turns later, we found it wasn't worth the paper it was written on
Niklas Broberg says:
sure those 5 turns took quite a while since the game was paused extensively
Memphus says:
ahh see that is the catch...5 turns is a long time
Memphus says:
ahh see that is the catch...5 turns is a long time
Memphus says:
a tech trade HEAVILY
Memphus says:
in your favour
Memphus says:
the only benefit to us would be gettign alpha sooner to trade with MS. but that window was closed
Memphus says:
by the delay
Niklas Broberg says:
well, I was in continuous communication with General_W during that whole time, and you should know the cause of the delays, both in the pauses and in getting back to you
Niklas Broberg says:
and there was no mention of any haste in your message
Memphus says:
maybe...
Memphus says:
but as time passed kaz came with a better offer
Memphus says:
which is why we told you.
Memphus says:
Had you accepted more timely Kaz would of never had the chance.
Niklas Broberg says:
and thus you went back on an offer laid, in favor of getting a few more beakers out of it
Memphus says:
the semantics of it can be debated. But at the same time if you go to a store and it says sale (but no indication of when it ends) does that mean if you back a week later and the sign is gone, you are entiled to the sale price?
Niklas Broberg says:
it wasn't a purchase though, and there was several things in the deal that required debate, so even without the pauses it would likely have taken several turns to get to a reply
Niklas Broberg says:
as noted there was no mention of any haste in it
Niklas Broberg says:
I find it especially bothersome that it came at an inopportune time, as G_W was made aware we were quite heavily in debate at the time on which path to take from there
Niklas Broberg says:
you should be aware that we weren't completely happy with how the agreement with Kaz had turned out, and that we were debating whether to look for greener pastures
Niklas Broberg says:
I believe (quite strongly) that your decline on that trade pushed many off the fence
Memphus says:
but our decline came only after you stated you were staying with Kaz.
Memphus says:
there was no forseeable way for you to get out of the deal with them
Memphus says:
We were talking to you about an alliance (as you mentioned earlier) and got pushed back.
Memphus says:
to take that trade on the "hope and dream" that you woudl leave Kaz would be illogical on our part.
Niklas Broberg says:
we certainly did not decline
Niklas Broberg says:
I mean, we did not state we were staying with Kaz
Niklas Broberg says:
we could not have, since we were quite certainly not decided at the time
Niklas Broberg says:
that may have been the outcome in the end, sure, and it may have been illogical on your part
Niklas Broberg says:
I merely state what I personally saw the situation as
Memphus says:
"Niklas:
for us to be interested, it would first require that we make the decision to leave the agreement, as discussed earlier"
Memphus says:
then being more circumstantial eveidence
Memphus says:
after G_W talked to you.
Memphus says:
Kaz pulled a 180 and walked away
Memphus says:
a huge indication of your alliance. (or tech agreement)
Niklas Broberg says:
I assume they pulled a 180 *after* we received the rebuttal from you though
Memphus says:
right indicating again your closer tie to them then us and that we made the right call.
Niklas Broberg says:
since before that, we had no reason to even discuss it with them, we did not know they were in negotiations with you about it
Niklas Broberg says:
well, what I'm saying is that your "right call" *caused* those closer ties at that point
Niklas Broberg says:
by pushing many off the fence into the camp that we wouldn't be able to get any better guarantees from you than we had from Kaz
Memphus says:
so you agree that us not trading is the right call in hindsight then?
Niklas Broberg says:
since you were able to get alpha from Saturn instead, and presumably have an agreement with them over it, it would indeed appear to be the right choice from your perspective
Niklas Broberg says:
but that's assuming we would have stayed with Kaz regardless
Niklas Broberg says:
we will never know what might have come out of that otherwise
Memphus says:
FYI the coordination is pretty evident. Kaz refused the trade on Apr 30th. The same turn we got the letter from you.
Memphus says:
so based on that coordination i would say yeah you would of stayed with Kaz regardless.
Niklas Broberg says:
that was the second letter
Niklas Broberg says:
or rather, the first message was not sent in a letter but on MSN to general_W
Niklas Broberg says:
this:
Niklas Broberg says:
"We were very pleased to hear that you’ve decided you’d like to make a deal with us for OB and a tech trade to get Metal Casting.
Unfortunately – when we never heard back from you, we went ahead and pursued another trade for Alphabet… and (even though it’s not 100% final yet) it looks like we’re going to get Alphabet plus another tech in that swap. "
Niklas Broberg says:
was sent from you to us on the 21st
Memphus says:
right. and the email to us was a reinforcement of you staying in the alliance with kaz
Memphus says:
so all this debate aside, are you saying all future tech trades are off the table?
Niklas Broberg says:
yes, by the time you got the second letter (not from me) then the decision to stay with Kaz would have been made
Niklas Broberg says:
no, that's hopefully not what I'm saying
Niklas Broberg says:
what I'm saying is that there is definite resentment in our team over how the last situation was handled
Niklas Broberg says:
and that any new trade for MC would likely evoke some bad blood
Memphus says:
ditto
Memphus says:
(not on the trade part)
Memphus says:
so may i ask how do you (or Kaz) plan to get MC? research?
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm not sure I have clearance to answer that question
Memphus says:
so saturn then. cool.
Niklas Broberg says:
saturn would be one possibility, trading from you would be another, but as noted we expect you to have an agreement with them over it already
Memphus says:
maybe.
Memphus says:
so how long until you guys complete the HG?
Niklas Broberg says:
and you think I would say that after you stole our oracle? lol
Memphus says:
Your Oracle? So does that mean MC is technically your too for free?
Niklas Broberg says:
yep, hand it over
Niklas Broberg says:
oh, and please forget it too
Niklas Broberg says:
the tech I mean
Niklas Broberg says:
it was never yours to begin with
Memphus says:
now i know why such bad blood.
Memphus says:
it was always your tech.
Memphus says:
and we were trying to profiteer alpha from it.
Niklas Broberg says:
yup, you got that right
Memphus says:
i knew i was missing a logic block somewhere.
Memphus says:
so can you send the pop points to us in 5 turns then?
Niklas Broberg says:
sure, you'll have them from us the moment you forget MC
Memphus says:
should I tear down all the forges too?
Niklas Broberg says:
of coruse
Niklas Broberg says:
and delete all the hammers you have gotten from them in the interim
Memphus says:
that is more hammers than kaz produces...they wouldn't appreciate that with our new war
Memphus says:
ok so outside of MC
Memphus says:
other trades are a possiblity.
Memphus says:
(not that we have techs at the moment)
Memphus says:
but for Example HBR?
Memphus says:
offers on that?
Niklas Broberg says:
well, my personal take on that is that HBR is somewhat useless
Memphus says:
yes with the great wall for you it would be
Niklas Broberg says:
but maybe that's only cause we don't plan to attack anyone
Niklas Broberg says:
and yes, the great wall definitely plays into that
Memphus says:
so any tech you would want that we can research for you?
Niklas Broberg says:
I couldn't discuss that without first discussing with the team
Memphus says:
ok that is cool.
Memphus says:
time to call it a day? let me know after Kaz has talked to you. you may have more questions
Memphus says:
or may want to take up that mercenary offer after all.
Niklas Broberg says:
we'll get back to you, or you send us an offer
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm in a bit of a busy spell personally, and have been for quite a while now, so it may not be me you talk to next time
Memphus says:
for tech or mercenary offer? (or either?)
Memphus says:
alright good to know.
Niklas Broberg says:
anything
Niklas Broberg says:
alright, I've posted this in our forum, we'll be in touch I'm sure
No feudalism for Kazakhstan!!!! 
