The neurological basis of why Civ V is boring (and Civ IV was not)

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Hmm, a necro'ed post, but an interesting one.

Personally, I think it's the opposite. There is much more in Civ V intended to trigger the reward response in the brain. In the beginning of Civ IV and earlier, the first few turns were often monotonous because of slow production and limited movement. By increasing movement and adding city defense, it freed the units to act in the early turns. Allowing user actions is a reward.

For the most part, Civ V removed penalties and replaced them with pure rewards. Instead of taking a penalty for your choices (like high upkeep in Civ IV), you simply chose a different bonus. Everything in the game seems designed around a bonus system. Unlocking a policy is as far as your brain is concerned, a reward.

Perhaps most visibly is that in Civ V, you can now purchase things. By using a fake currency, you actually get the same reaction to shopping in Civ V that you would going to the store. Your brain is rewarded by thinking you are actually shopping, and the immediate response reinforces this.

I think the problem is not a lack of rewards in Civ V, but satiation. With earlier games, there was a delay between reward actions, and when they came, they were large rewards. In Civilization V, you get a steady flow of small rewards. The brain is better with large rewards spaced out (once you are accustomed to the reward), however it can become addicted toward small rewards rapidly given. Instead of anticipating them gladly, they become a habit.

Civ V handles rewards differently. That is part of why it is better for newer players. I think the slower rate of rewards in Civ IV is part of its endurance, though. It also is probably why Civ IV vets were disappointed with Civ V...everything just happened so easy, when they were used to having to work for things.

I've played every Civ game since Civ II unhealthily over the years, and I cannot understand why someone would say Civ V is less rewarding. Adjusting tax sliders is not rewarding, unless you perceive a bonus for adjusting it. Of course, I realize this is an old thread, and the game might have been different on release, but much of the reward system in Civ V is part of the original design.
 
well if you do ICS there is constant stream of rewards :) after you settle something like 40 cities you can get to point where every turn you have to visit at least 5 cities

I am affraid what will happen after they finally nerf ICS heavily, right now I can get a lot of fun from the game, but with only 5+- production queues (the original intend of devs) I don't see to happen a lot of fun

What difficulty? Because I suspect it would be near impossible to have 40 cities on anything other than easiest. The penelties for number of cities and pop would horrific because of only one global happiness. Frankly on deity I had to raze the cities as I advance because the unhappiness was just too extreme to try and actually hold them.
 
What difficulty? Because I suspect it would be near impossible to have 40 cities on anything other than easiest. The penelties for number of cities and pop would horrific because of only one global happiness. Frankly on deity I had to raze the cities as I advance because the unhappiness was just too extreme to try and actually hold them.

It's not a problem with religious happiness bonuses and a few happiness buildings. The only thing you need is to play wide ICS strategy with cities settled no more than the minimum three tiles apart so they don't grow too much, and also happiness SP, wonders etc. Though building wonders would definitely be a problem. Having 40+ cities guaranties you to have lots and lots of luxuries.

I imagine you'd have a lot more problems finding the space to settle those cities, rather than happiness.
 
OP does have a good point; in all versions of Civ; I'm ending sessions right after reaching a major mile stone and know from experience that it's going to be a while before reaching the next one.

These mile stones are indeed further apart in Civ V than the earlier versions; but G&K has helped by adding some new ones (founding a pantheon / founding a religion / enhancing a religion / earning enough faith points for [missionary/inquisitor/Great Prophet/religious building/Great Scientist/Great Engineer/ pre industrial land units for war-monglers].

Brave New World appears to be adding a few more.

On AIs city placement; I always raze somewhat more than half of those I capture myself. (The AIs "junk cities") I pick my religious choices around only founding four cities (or five if it's really, really good). How the heck do you manage to build any new national wonders after having founded the 10th+ city? Even a sixth built city slowed my national wonders down too much and actually delayed my victory compared to five cities.
 
One of the fundamentally good criticisms of Civ5 IMO is that you don't make things happen, you wait for things to happen, and I think that ties in with the criticism this thread gives. You don't feel any reward when you're just letting it happen, which tends to occur in Civ5.
 
Why do you feel the need to resurrect a two and a half year old thread just to post why you don't like the game? If you don't like it, don't play it. Go open another thread to vent your frustration on a more detailed post, not necropost on a thread that has been dead for nearly three years.

I think people do it because "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", ie: the more people state their opinions the more likely the next game installment will follow their opinions. Try not to freak out so much.
 
You say some people like Civ4 better some like Civ5 better. I say 99.9% lime civ4 better .1% like civ5 better.

I could only play 2 games of civ5. It was terrible. There are many reasons why... I made a long textpad list whilst playing the 2nd game of changes that would be required... it was/is around 4 pages.

I was so incredibly excited about the launch of civ5 that I used VPN to get US access to it just to get it a few days early. I stopped playing by the time it came out in the UK.

I never released the textpad flaws in the end - by the end of the 2nd game I realized the game is flawed at its core, and needs a redesign from the ground up.

some examples include: incredibly high building maintenance means you would be in negative by the end of the game, i.e. the best strategy was to NOT build most buildings.

Cultural victory means making a few (3-4) cities and pressing end turn 500 times. There are so few ways to boost culture beyond the first few buildings that the difference between a culture focused civ and non-cultured is minute.

One unit per tile, whilst good in theory was badly executed, its both badly run by AI and boring to play for a human with lots of units (no new management tool for an entirely new concept)

And this is coming from someone who has loves every single civ till now, Civ1, Civ2, Civ3, Civ4 - hell i even liked multi-player civ-rev.

take it for what u will.

I'd like to see this released and I'd like to request you play another game when Brave New World drops.
 
I think people do it because "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", ie: the more people state their opinions the more likely the next game installment will follow their opinions. Try not to freak out so much.

My question was about why people find some two and a half year old thread to do it, not why they give their opinions. I already said in that post that he should have opened a thread for it, or post on a more recent thread.
 
One of the fundamentally good criticisms of Civ5 IMO is that you don't make things happen, you wait for things to happen, and I think that ties in with the criticism this thread gives. You don't feel any reward when you're just letting it happen, which tends to occur in Civ5.
So, what are players "making happen" in IV? What are the constant stream of rewards that games of IV offers that V does not?

I played some of IV. Impression was much the same. I clicked through many a turn.
 
So, what are players "making happen" in IV? What are the constant stream of rewards that games of IV offers that V does not?

The main one in Civ IV, is that just about every turn (other than really early) at least one of your cities finished producing something.
(In large part, early units much cheaper to build; and of course ([standard map size] if you've built 12 cities it's a whole more likely than if you've only built 4 cities on a given turn for one of your cities to complete building something.)

G&K does have more rewards than vanilla did.
 
Is it also possible that the longer loading times on turns are having an additional psychological effect? In the beginning I don't notice clicking next turn 10 times with doing nothing except maybe moving a scout around. But come late-game when I am waiting 10 turns for a broadcast tower, it feels like an eternity without doing anything. The in-game time is the same, but the real world time wasted on those 10 turns is significantly longer.
 
Let thy troll threads be buried into the depths and hell, forgotten and thou shalt never mention thy hatred of superiority again...
 
I don't think Civ V is boring at all. In fact I can't stop playing it. I played maybe 1/5th as much Civ IV.

To each his own, but I don't get why people need to make stupid posts like this. Are we smart enough to decide whether we like a game or not? If we are, why do we need people posting things like this to try to convince us?
 
I don't think Civ V is boring at all. In fact I can't stop playing it. I played maybe 1/5th as much Civ IV.

To each his own, but I don't get why people need to make stupid posts like this. Are we smart enough to decide whether we like a game or not? If we are, why do we need people posting things like this to try to convince us?

I would answer with a blunt question about this troll thread, but then no one likes the honest truth, least of all, the mods.
 
Can we merge this into the rant thread? It look a bit spammy to me.
 
Is it also possible that the longer loading times on turns are having an additional psychological effect? I

I would think long load times would have a psychological effect, but I'm not sure what effect it is. I am pretty sure it would cause some people to become frustrated with the game, and stop playing. On the other hand, it could cause someone who actually sits through the loading to become more excited over the rewards. Longer load times spaces out the rewards, which is actually important for maintaining the desired behavior (getting you addicted to the game).
 
Can we merge this into the rant thread? It look a bit spammy to me.

This does seem like a rant thread, but the original topic (the few times it is mentioned) is an interesting one: the "neurological" effects of Civilization in comparison with other titles.
 
While we are waiting for the next patch, allow me to speculate on why Civ V does not grip most of us like Civ IV does.

My emphasis. Although there has been considerable debate about the merits of IV vs V, I think it is presumptuous to claim a majority opinion.
 
While we are waiting for the next patch, allow me to speculate on why Civ V does not grip most of us like Civ IV does. It in involves brain chemicals and bananas. Oh, and your girlfriend.

Dopamine is part of the brain's reward system. Current theory states that what you hold in your attention ("mental RAM", working memory, however you want to call it) is regulated by a "gate" that is open and shut by this chemical. When there is a constant stream of dopamine, the gate stays shut -- your attention doesn't stray. When dopamine levels drop, the gate pops open. When there is spike of dopamine, however, the gate opens, too. If the dopamine level is already very high because of great rewards, even this spike has trouble opening the gate.

The best example I have heard involves a monkey eating bananas in a tree. As long as there are enough bananas, there is a constant stream of rewards, and the gate stays shut -- no need to go looking for something else, your attention stays on the bananas. When the bananas run out, dopamine drops, and you look around for something else. Also, even if you are eating bananas, and a sexy monkey walks by, you forget the bananas and follow her (or him): Dopamine has spiked, the gate has opened, and your attention shifts.

So what does this have to do with Civ?

Civ IV produced a constant stream of rewards. Small stuff, yes, but you were constantly making some decision or seeing the result of an earlier decision. There was always something somewhere that functioned as a reward. This constant stream of rewards, so the theory, produced a high and constant level of dopamine, and kept your attention on the game. In fact, your dopamine level might have been so high that even if your girlfriend came in the room in those "special clothes" (wink-wink nudge-nudge), your attention stayed on the game.

Civ V is "streamlined" (aka "dumbed down", etc), with a lot of these "minor" decisions taken out. You spend a lot more time just waiting or clicking next turn. This means that the constant stream of rewards is gone, which means that dopamine levels have a chance to fall, which means that your attention tends to wander. In other words, by trying to make the game "less cluttered", they have removed the mechanism that made it so fascinating. On the other hand, your girlfriend is probably a happier person.

If all of this is true -- and, please note, IAMANP (I am not a neurology professor), I just read in the field -- it bodes ill for any chances we have of getting this game up to where Civ IV is in terms of being an attention-grabber. You'd have to patch in something rewarding for the player to do all the time, some problem to solve, even if it is totally minor. This would probably mean going back to a game that has more units, quicker building times, more factors (pollution, religion, espionage) that require doing something all the time.

Note this doesn't mean that the Civ V developers were wrong to say that, for example, pollution can be folded in general unhappiness. It just means that doing so is bad if you are trying to get somebody neurologically hooked on your game.

A Small Note: You Included part of Serotonin's Role in Dopamine:

Dopamine plays in a role in regulation of behavior, voluntary movement, cognition, motivation, reward, attention, learning and mood and inhibits production of prolactin, a hormone responsible for lactation, in the hypothalamus. Serotonin plays a role in regulation of mood, appetite, sleep, memory and learning and in the gastrointestinal tract, it stimulates metabolism, cellular growth and digestion.

- I Am Not A Neurologist, just a Son of A Neurologist
 
However it is an intersting theory. But a balance has to happen. If there are too many rewards, rewards become insignificant, and less atractive (a reason MicroManagament-required Games are panifull and non-stimulating.) And the Danger of Complexity too...
 
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