Team Free Embassy

Popping currency is just brilliant! I think there is a lesson in this for Saber!

I think we should start research on Mysticism, getting to the middle ages early is the priority, we can work out compensation later just as long as they agree we will be compensated.

With regards to middle age agreement, yes we need to start on this, exact details of the tech plan abviously can't be finalised until we both have our free techs however getting peace and a general agreement on research co-operation can be worked out in advance.
 
I too think we should go for Myst right away. We can get it in 4 turns, so there's no reason at all to wait for FREE to do it for us.
 
New message from FREE:

azzaman333 said:
Hi. There are a couple of things our people would like clarified from you.

In previous communications you have stated that we should've been able to expect Construction from you, yet we hear you are learning Horseback Riding? We are confused as to what your intentions are, as there are some who suspect you aren't being honest with us, and had a plan to trade for Construction that went along the lines of trading for it and the on-selling it to us.

As to your questions;
Have your people met any other civilizations yet? Have you done much exploring?
We do not feel comfortable disclosing this information until we know that you are being upfront and honest with us, and aren't doing any shady back-room deals.

Azzaman333; FREE-Council Ambassador​

Popping currency is great! It's nice to know our planning paid off. :) We haven't sent construction to FREE yet? (I can't open the save yet. :( ) We need to reply to FREE - they are probably already a couple turns into mysticism and should get it before us. I'm going to look at the played turns thread and then pop back here.

EDIT: Proposed reply to FREE. We need to get something to them fast.

Salutations!

Friends of FREE we were horrified to read your last letter and humbly apologize for our construction blunder. We have not yet quite got our Council meetings running smoothly under the new code of laws and our great ambassador, General_W, has been away on family matters. Rest assured we will rectify our oversight next turn and will send you construction. We can also now ride horses and so will send that along as well.

These are techs that we learned ourselves through research. We never once considered trading for construction, for no one we know has it! Our only other contact is SABER and we made only one tech trade with them. If think it was iron working for ceremonail burial and the wheel and we informed you of this trade on 4/27. There was talk of trading construction to SABER for currency but SABER wanted us to agree to a no-trading clause and so we had to refuse that deal as it would have caused us to violate our MAAP agreement with you. We have not entered into any other trade talks.

Now, there is some good news. The reason we researched horseback riding and asked for republic right away was so we could pop a couple huts in hope of getting either curreny or polytheism. We were successful in our planning and have learned currency from the Tartars! We will be sending this to you along with construction and horseback riding! :)

This now leaves only mysticism (which we assume you have already begun researching) and then polytheism. Have you indeed begun mysticism? If you have then please send it to us when you have it. Whichever of us can research polytheism at that point should do so to propel us both to the middle ages. It is also time to begin thinking about extending our partnership into that age.

donsig
Speaking with the words of The Council

OK, please discuss and revise. I have a few questions myself. I looked over MAAP and it seems we left out the part about sharing gold. :D Would it be overly bad of us to hold off on telling them about popping currency? We could just hoard our gold while they think we're researching currency. Of course if we need them to hold that gold till the barbs go away... BTW, is that tactic even legal under MTDG rules? Is there anything we can do to destroy those two barb camps in the next six or seven turns? You know, holding off on giving them currency and asking them to hold off on giving us poly would give us more control over the transition to the middle ages. We could tell them we want to enter the middle ages on currency for polytheism trade. Well, The Council must deliberate on all this!
 
EDIT: x-posted with donsig. Yes, we've had construction for a while now and they can have it whenever they want. They just never asked for it, and all communication is initiated from our side. In fact we told them we were trying to get Currency from SABER for Construction, don't they read our letters?
There's really no need for such mistrust. We have trusted them every inch of the way, voluntarily told them about SABER, kept them in the loop about our tech deal with SABER, gave them a tech for free, and now we get this? Maybe we need to rewrite the letter below to make it clear to them that this kind of language is unacceptable to us. I'm really angry with them now.

Under the terms of our treaty they are obliged to tell us of any contacts they have.

How did we get this message btw? It's not in the team box.

I don't think FREE has started on Mysticism. They are in anarchy, and probably started that right after getting republic.


Indeed, the real issue is that FREE and we shouldn't do double work. Proposal for a letter:

Dear FREE,

We are writing you, first, to tell you that have learned the secrets of Horseback riding, and can send these to you whenever you want. We also have Construction available. Just let us know when you want it!

Furthermore, we had a nice stroke of luck. While SABER was dragging their feet on our proposed deal for currency, we managed to pop it from a hut! Of course we will also send this tech to you at your convenience.

This means we have now finished our part of the joint research programme, and are waiting for you to research Mysticism and Polytheism.

Which brings us to our second point. We noticed you still suffer from anarchy. Your experience has induced us to stay in despotism just a little longer! In the interest of speeding up our joint research effort, we think it would be beneficial if The Council researches Mysticism. We can start next turn (turn 87) and finish 4 turns later, so please let us know before our next turn what you would like - we would hate to do double research effort! We will of course send Mysticism to you right away, and then you can start on Polytheism.

As compensation for this shift in research effort, you can either pay us half the beaker cost in gold (that's 60 gold), or we simply regard this as a research credit for The Council in some Middle Age tech deal that we'll hammer out later. The Council would prefer the latter option, but in any case, this doesn't need to be decided right away.

And then we would like to bring up a final issue. Our Joint Research Programme (MAAP) is nearing its end. We would be delighted to extend our cooperation into the Middle Ages. Please let us know whether you would be interested, than we can start to work out the details!

Best wishes,
your friends from The Council
 
There's really no need for such mistrust. We have trusted them every inch of the way, voluntarily told them about SABER, kept them in the loop about our tech deal with SABER, gave them a tech for free, and now we get this? Maybe we need to rewrite the letter below to make it clear to them that this kind of language is unacceptable to us. I'm really angry with them now.

Undre the terms of our treaty they are obliged to tell us of any contacts they have.

I don't think FREE has started on Mysticism. They are in anarchy, and probably started that right after getting republic.

Yes, I agree there is no need for the mistrust on their part but it is evidently there. I think we should take a concilliatory tone with them and be humble even if we're not the one at fault.

Your point about the contacts is true but I'd save that for the next letter after this one.

I didn't think about their anarchy preventing them from starting mysticism. I think the key thing facing us now is timing our move to the middle ages so that we can avoid a massive barbarian uprising. If we can let FREE research mysticism and poly while we take care of the barbs and stock pile gold, would that be better than us doing mysticsm now? I guess the big question is how soon can we eliminate the barb threat? (I still can't open the saves. :( )
 
I think we can eliminate the camp in the west in about 8 turns with the settler from Bayou. The other one is harder to say - but probably we can get a warrior pair over there in about 8 turns.

Comments on dosnig's letter: I think we may need to be more aggressive to FREE - they need to learn that they cannot deal with us like this. It is ridiculous that we should apologize - humbly even! So here is a tougher version of the letter I wrote initially, but still rather friendly. I left out any discussion of the longer term. I don't think we should send them currency yet. If they don't trust us, why would we trust them? We can send currency for Poly.

I am not too certain about the last bit - in view of their distrust, 60 gold might be better than a research credit.

Dear FREE,

We researched construction several turns ago. After that, we researched HBR. Perhaps we forgot to inform you that we had construction, and we're sorry for that. Anyway, we'll send it together with HBR on the next turn.

That being said, we must say we are very disappointed by the tone and content of your last letter. We have made every effort to build a trusting relationship with you. We freely told you that we had met SABER, even though we were under no obligation to do so. When we made a tech deal with them (Iron Working + Ceremonial Burial for Warrior Code + Wheel) we kept you informed all along, and even asked for your consent, even though we were under no obligation to do so. When we received those techs from SABER, we freely shared them with you, even though we were under no obligation to do so. We would have had many opportunities to cheat on you, had we wished to do so. But we are a trustworthy people that cherish the value of their promises, and so we didn't. Yet, the first moment you feel something is amiss, you do not simply inquire into the matter. No, you immediately accuse us of violating our treaty and doing "shady back-room deals". This disappoints us greatly, and we feel your mistrust is wholly undeserved.

Your refusal to inform us about your contacts disappoints us even more. It is a clear violation of our treaty not to inform us of any contacts you have gained, and this refusal sows distrust in our hearts.

Now on to other business. Last turn we had a nice stroke of luck. While SABER was dragging their feet on our proposed deal for currency, we managed to pop it from a hut! This means we have now finished our part of the joint research programme, and are waiting for you to research Mysticism and Polytheism.

Which brings us to our final point. We noticed you still suffer from anarchy. In the interest of speeding up our joint research effort, we think it would be beneficial if The Council researches Mysticism. We can start next turn (turn 87) and finish 4 turns later, so please let us know before our next turn what you would like - we would hate to do double research effort! We will of course send Mysticism to you right away, and then you can start on Polytheism.

As compensation for this shift in research effort, you can either pay us half the beaker cost in gold (that's 60 gold), or we simply regard this as a research credit for The Council in some Middle Age tech deal that we'll hammer out later. The Council would prefer the latter option, but in any case, this doesn't need to be decided right away.

Regards,
The Council
 
we must be very careful. I don't remember exactly what the MAAP says, but I believe we are, in fact, obligated to share techs with FREE and cannot make a tech deal without someone else without their approval.

I do not think we were obligated to tell FREE we had met SABER, but clearly we were obligated to talk to them about deals.

My guess is that they are suspicious because we didn't send them construction right when we got it.
 
It seems like team FREE have not put much effort into their communication with us, exemplified by their last correspondence.
I am disappointed with their response and feel that we don't deserve such suspicion.
I do think that we should play nice though, just not lick their boots.

Has anyone experiences with playing together with Azzaman before?
 
btw - these two statements:
We freely told you that we had met SABER, even though we were under no obligation to do so.

It is a clear violation of our treaty not to inform us of any contacts you have gained,

are mutually contradictory. If we were under no obligation to tell them of our contact, it can't be a violation for them to not tell us of theirs.
 
There's no contradiction because we met SABER before the treaty was signed, IIRC. For the same reason we didn't have to discuss that tech deal with FREE.

But maybe this is too much borderline and the letter needs to be toned down a bit :). Still, I think we need to show some anger over their latest communication.
 
I would prefer a puzzled tone to an outraged one or a conciliatory one.

Conciliatory sounds like we feel guilty, and I don't think we do. I don't know why they think we are messing with them.

Outraged is ok, but might get in the way of future diplomatic issues.

Puzzled lets us figure out what is going on. Perhaps they don't understand why we wouldnt' want republic - perhaps it was not getting construction earlier, or that we suddenly have currency *and* horsebackriding.
 
I would prefer a puzzled tone to an outraged one or a conciliatory one.

Conciliatory sounds like we feel guilty, and I don't think we do. I don't know why they think we are messing with them.

Outraged is ok, but might get in the way of future diplomatic issues.

Puzzled lets us figure out what is going on. Perhaps they don't understand why we wouldnt' want republic - perhaps it was not getting construction earlier, or that we suddenly have currency *and* horsebackriding.

I concur.
Good suggestion.
 
Yes, AT has it right. Puzzlement will go further than righteous indignation (which I share, btw!) or conciliation.

So, here's my stab:

Dear Azzaman and all FREE people:

You latest letter (attached below) has caused much grumbling in The Chamber of The Council. We don't really understand why you're accusing us of shady dealings and such.

We researched Construction 4 turns ago, and since you didn't ask for it to be sent over, we didn't. Had you asked, either in game or out of game, we would have immediately sent it, as per our Treaty.

Likewise, every trade with a nation outside of our Treaty has been approved by you - there have been no trades that you were not aware of. We just finished HBR last turn, and popped Currency the same turn. Because Currency was popped, the potential trade with SABER is off the table, and we have already told them that.

It is understandable that, from the point of view of FREE, it may appear that we have been trading outside of our alliance. But we have not. A full accounting of the chronology of our research (and only hut pop) can be prepared for your accountants, if need be. We really don't want you to falsely think we've been up to something!

We are not a little dismayed at your reluctance to be open with us about any foreign contact you have made. After all, we were very forthcoming with you right from the start, holding nothing back. Deciding to be so transparent with your nation so eraly in our relations roused great debates among the advisers, but we felt it was the wisest decision. But, as they say, rational people can disagree :)

Since, as mentioned, we popped Currency from a hut this last turn, we both need to decide how to proceed with the MAAP. We have now finished our part of the joint research programme, and are waiting for you to research Mysticism and Polytheism.

We think it would be beneficial if The Council researches Mysticism. We can start next turn (turn 87) and finish 4 turns later, so please let us know before our next turn what you would like - we would hate to do double research effort! We will of course send Mysticism to you right away, and then you can start on Polytheism.

As compensation for this shift in research effort, you can either pay us half the beaker cost in gold (that's 60 gold), or we simply regard this as a research credit for The Council in some Middle Age tech deal that we'll hammer out later. The Council would prefer the latter option, but in any case, this doesn't need to be decided right away.

And please - if you'd like any of the techs on our side of the trade screen, just grab them, and we'll accept ;)

We hope to have cleared up any doubts some of you may have had about our intentions or our actions. It would be best if you looked over the MAAP Treaty before deciding how we both should proceed to the Middle Ages, so that we can open discussions about the Era change and our futures :)

The Council



Spoiler Azza's letter of 5/18 :
Hi. There are a couple of things our people would like clarified from you.

In previous communications you have stated that we should've been able to expect Construction from you, yet we hear you are learning Horseback Riding? We are confused as to what your intentions are, as there are some who suspect you aren't being honest with us, and had a plan to trade for Construction that went along the lines of trading for it and the on-selling it to us.

As to your questions;
Quote:
Have your people met any other civilizations yet? Have you done much exploring?
We do not feel comfortable disclosing this information until we know that you are being upfront and honest with us, and aren't doing any shady back-room deals.
Azzaman333; FREE-Council Ambassador
NOTE: they are indeed required to disclose immediately any foreign contact. The last line is a subtle way to get them to realize that themselves, so that we don't need to call them out on it, potentially embarrassing them.

Also, General_W and I were on MIA with Azza. He is very direct, and can sometimes come across as angry when he's really not. He is a man of few, but choice, words. I have much respect for him. I don't know how FREE operates, but I woulnd't be surprised if he penned that letter himself with no feedback from the team before sending
.

Spoiler MAAP foreign contacts :
Both teams agree to not conduct any trades with foreign powers unless the deal is explicitly approved by the other team and factored into how it will affect the MAAP.
If either team meets a foreign power, they will immediately notify the other of the contact. Whether or not the in-game contact is shared will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis for maximum mutual benefit (in making techs cheaper for us and not for our foes).
 
Looks very good.
One comment: I think maybe we should refer to the MAAP regarding the sharing of contact with another civ, albeit in a non-confrontational and more like a reminding way.
considering their direct style of communication, I don't think they will mind.
If we don't ask them directly they can wriggle out of it, or just ignore our question.
They are breaking the treaty by not sharing such info with us, and I think they have to consider their words a bit more carefully next time.
 
Generally looks ok to me, though a bit too complacent for my taste. We've been more than kind to them and they just don't know how to reward that. And if azza is direct and doesn't bother whether he insults us or not, then we can be direct too.
But it seems I'm the hardliner on this team - a position I don't often find myself in :lol:. So I'll concede to a puzzled letter.

A few comments:
  • I would scratch the paragraph "It is understandable ... up to something!". This is not understandable at all! Where is the link between trading with other nations and withholding techs from FREE? I don't see it. Besides, we're confused, so we don't understand much :). Moreover, do we really want to produce an account of our actions? We're not their servants!
  • In the paragraph after that, "eraly" should be "early". Btw, I don't understand what you mean by rational people that can disagree - does this refer to disagreement in our own team, or between the two teams? Also, I'm not sure the last two lines of this paragraph are needed - our internal deliberations are of no concern to them.
  • They cannot request techs in-game. In a multiplayer game, you can only see your own side of the trading table and put things there. You cannot see what the other side has or request it. Please remove these references so that we look smarter (i.e., remove "either in game or out of game" from the second paragraph, and the entire one-but last paragraph).
  • I would explicitly ask again for info on their contacts, or they will ignore it. I am really getting distrustful on this point. You reference to the treaty is a bit too indirect for my taste.
 
I would rather not tell them we popped currency. Let's let them think we have to research it.
 
I had a few minutes here at the Hospital while my wife and baby nap, so I thought I'd take a quick shot at this letter.

Great Start Peter – thanks for doing that.

Here's my suggested modifications:
  • I think we need to be more clear about the absolute necessity of them disclosing who they've met. If they want to accuse us of something we haven't done, it's certainly fair for us to be clear on how they are violating the treaty.
  • Despite this, you still catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar, and I think we want to keep the tone as friendly/puzzled as possible.
  • I agree with zyxy – while aiming to be nice, there's no reason to pretend that FREE's sudden burst of paranoia is "understandable"
  • And yeah – we can't expect them to see what techs we have, so that should be removed.
  • I think we DO have to tell FREE that we popped currency – there's no other good explanation for how we got it so fast – and they're apparently paying attention to tech costs, and will know we have it here by the next turn. Besides, we're basing a lot of our indignation on the fact that we HAVE been honest and open with them beyond the call of duty. I don't think we should change that policy based on one ham-handed letter from Azzaman – who I agree, likely just sent this letter without team review and probably reads harsher than he meant it.

Here's my proposed Version:

--------------------

Dear Azzaman and all FREE people:

You latest letter was received with some shock in The Chambers of The Council! From our point of view, we have bent over backwards to be totally open and honest even above our treaties requirements. We hope we're just taking this letter as more harsh than it was intended.

We finished research on Construction 4 turns ago, and just didn't think about sending it. We apologize. We're happy to send it immediately.
We've actually been focused on trying to pop Currency and thus avoid making any extra deals with team Saber. To do this, we needed Horseback Riding, and then to block Mysticism. We figured, the less we can trade with other teams – the better for both us. Please understand, there was nothing malicious here (quite the opposite!), and we're disappointed that you would even consider that.

Hopefully we don't have to remind you that every trade with a nation outside of our Treaty has been approved by you even before we began negotiations, and there have been no trades that you were not aware of. We just finished HBR last turn, and our gamble paid off as we have also popped Currency the same turn! :banana: Because Currency was popped, the potential trade with SABER is off the table, and we have just sent a note to Saber telling them this.

We are a little dismayed at your reluctance to be open with us about any foreign contact you have made. After all, we were very forthcoming with you right from the start, holding nothing back even before our treaty with you was signed. We'll remind you that in Section 3, Point 2 of our treaty you agreed to "immediately notify the other of the contact" and we're saddened that you're not sticking with this for reasons we don't really comprehend? We're happy to chalk this up to a simple mistake like our delay in sending Construction, and we hope to all have a good chuckle about the miscommunications with you later.

Since, as mentioned, we popped Currency from a hut this last turn, we both need to decide how to proceed with the MAAP. We have now finished our part of the joint research programme, and are waiting for you to research Mysticism and Polytheism.

We think it would be beneficial if The Council researches Mysticism. We can start next turn (turn 87) and finish 4 turns later, so please let us know before our next turn what you would like - we would hate to do double research effort! We will of course send Mysticism to you right away, and then you can start on Polytheism.

As compensation for this shift in research effort, we'd like to propose that you can either pay us half the beaker cost in gold (that's 60 gold), or we simply regard this as a research credit for The Council in some Middle Age tech deal that we'll hammer out later. The Council would prefer the latter option, but in any case, this doesn't need to be decided right away.

Finally, we'd just like to note that we think some of this breakdown in communication was due to General_W's family emergency that has had him in the hospital all week taking care of his 2 month old daughter. She's doing much better and should be going home from the Hospital this weekend, and we expect the General to return to active duty and hopefully help prevent any future misunderstandings.

We hope to have cleared up any doubts some of you may have had about our intentions or our actions. :)

The Council
-----

Please feel free to edit away on that – just wanted to take the chance to help out a bit.

Thanks again to this great team! :salute:
 
Very good letter. I especially like the part about coming home from the hospital. That is good news indeed, even better than popping currency! :) And we have missed your diplomatic skill, General. I'm a poor substitute - even sent the last message to CommandoBob instead of azzaman!

I also forgot that FREE would see the drop in the cost of currency. doh!

So should we tell them we'll send them construction, horseback riding and currency next turn?
 
@donsig: I don't think FREE is looking at research costs really, or they would have known we had construction already. I would certainly not send them currency right away - there's no reason to fully trust them right now. We can send HBR+Construction.

The letter by General_W looks good to me. Shall we send this off? It needs to be done soon, to give FREE some time to discuss our proposal for Mysticism.
 
I think anger would really be in its place as a response to free's letter.
 
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