G-Minor LXXXV

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.



Settings:

• Expansion: Brave New World
• Victory Condition: Science (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Warlord
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Highlands
• Speed: Standard
• Leader: Maya (Pacal)
• Opponents: Any
• Version: SV8
• Date: 16th September to 1st October 2014

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

Might play this one, seems like very good settings for a strategy ive been working on

Can anyone help to improve my radio discovering on year 1280 ad

First reference value,turn 312.

T232 SV... not sure if this is good or not in the grand scheme of things. I feel like my cities were pretty strong but my GS management was poor. Any critique/advice is welcome.

Game went well early on. Biggest problem was not getting world congress founded in a reasonable time. I had trouble scouting the map to find the last AI. From there I think I made a big mistake in proposing culture from world wonders instead of sciences funding on the first vote. I didn't get sciences funding passed until T223. This cost me at least 2 GS in the end which would have sped up my finish significantly. I had enough gold to buy all SS parts well before finishing research.

I didn't get Aluminum in any of my 6 cities. Luckily there was 8 Aluminum in the 4th ring of my 4th city, so I built Musician's Guild there and cultured it. It turned out okay but it made me panic and probably messed up midgame a bit.

The AI was in negative gold most of the game, which made purchasing science buildings tough. I was also planning to capture an AI capital but the only one close to me got such a bad start that it wasn't even worth it.

Build order was a bit weird. I believe I made 2 settlers before GL and then did a 3 city NC, buying the 3rd library. I got Petra in my 3rd city (founded specifically for Petra) which was nice. After that I made my 4th city to get cargo ships going. I ended up with 2 more cities for 6 total and certainly had happiness for more, although I don't know if that would have been optimal. I went with 6 because that was a good number for internal trade routes.

Religion: Earth Mother, Tithe, Religious Community, Pagodas. I figured Religious Community would be the best in the long run. There was a point when founding 5th-6th city that I needed the happiness from Pagodas because AIs were useless in trading. It also saved me some faith from unintentionally spawning early great prophets.

Went full tradition > Commerce > Oracle'd into Rationalism > Freedom. I took Commerce to get Mercantilism for buying SS parts. I think it was the right choice over Patronage.

Anyway, at least this was my fastest SV ever I might try again later paying more attention to Great Scientists to see if I can improve on it.

See spoiler for victory SS:



edit: it just occurred to me I could have used a great general (Maya duh) to take aluminum tile instead of wasting time on culture. Ugh, haha... next time I won't forget this.

fils said:

T232 SV... not sure if this is good or not in the grand scheme of things. I feel like my cities were pretty strong but my GS management was poor. Any critique/advice is welcome.

Game went well early on. Biggest problem was not getting world congress founded in a reasonable time. I had trouble scouting the map to find the last AI. From there I think I made a big mistake in proposing culture from world wonders instead of sciences funding on the first vote. I didn't get sciences funding passed until T223. This cost me at least 2 GS in the end which would have sped up my finish significantly. I had enough gold to buy all SS parts well before finishing research.

I didn't get Aluminum in any of my 6 cities. Luckily there was 8 Aluminum in the 4th ring of my 4th city, so I built Musician's Guild there and cultured it. It turned out okay but it made me panic and probably messed up midgame a bit.

The AI was in negative gold most of the game, which made purchasing science buildings tough. I was also planning to capture an AI capital but the only one close to me got such a bad start that it wasn't even worth it.

Build order was a bit weird. I believe I made 2 settlers before GL and then did a 3 city NC, buying the 3rd library. I got Petra in my 3rd city (founded specifically for Petra) which was nice. After that I made my 4th city to get cargo ships going. I ended up with 2 more cities for 6 total and certainly had happiness for more, although I don't know if that would have been optimal. I went with 6 because that was a good number for internal trade routes.

Religion: Earth Mother, Tithe, Religious Community, Pagodas. I figured Religious Community would be the best in the long run. There was a point when founding 5th-6th city that I needed the happiness from Pagodas because AIs were useless in trading. It also saved me some faith from unintentionally spawning early great prophets.

Went full tradition > Commerce > Oracle'd into Rationalism > Freedom. I took Commerce to get Mercantilism for buying SS parts. I think it was the right choice over Patronage.

Anyway, at least this was my fastest SV ever I might try again later paying more attention to Great Scientists to see if I can improve on it.

See spoiler for victory SS:

Spoiler :

edit: it just occurred to me I could have used a great general (Maya duh) to take aluminum tile instead of wasting time on culture. Ugh, haha... next time I won't forget this.

Click to expand...

i played better yet left for almost 80 turns lol.I guess getting a lot of cities very early is key?I also got petra on second city build,and even had better pantheon,as i was getting +1 to cul and +1 to faith.
And religion i went instead what you picked shrine and template bonus food and +15 growth food bonus.Tho how much i know from previous science game some people used +15 food growth and +15 construction bonus. Possible alternative would be mosque(for bigger faith bonus) and +2 fate per world wonder(again to get more faith)

Also,what do you mean by this: "did a 3 city NC" -is it mean how you builded NC in your third city or you made it in capitol?And what was your other wonder build order(HG,ToA).

And another thing,howmuch i know for science is better order,due 25% science bonus from factories,so far science game winners was always using order except one game which was OCC challenge.
And regarding going commerce instead patronage doesn't sound as bad idea-it at least help to buy science building faster.

crocivfanatic said:

i played better yet left for almost 80 turns lol.I guess getting a lot of cities very early is key?I also got petra on second city build,and even had better pantheon,as i was getting +1 to cul and +1 to faith.
And religion i went instead what you picked shrine and template bonus food and +15 growth food bonus.Tho how much i know from previous science game some people used +15 food growth and +15 construction bonus. Possible alternative would be mosque(for bigger faith bonus) and +2 fate per world wonder(again to get more faith)

Also,what do you mean by this: "did a 3 city NC" -is it mean how you builded NC in your third city or you made it in capitol?And what was your other wonder build order(HG,ToA).

And another thing,howmuch i know for science is better order,due 25% science bonus from factories,so far science game winners was always using order except one game which was OCC challenge.
And regarding going commerce instead patronage doesn't sound as bad idea-it at least help to buy science building faster.

Click to expand...

Hey Croc, I'm kind of new to this style of play as well but I'll try my best to help.

# of cities:
- I think Maya benefits a bit more than usual from extra cities due to the excellent Pyramid building. I have no idea which number would be optimal. I don't think it's ever bad to put down another city provided you have the happiness/land for it and can get it up and running fast (spare internal trade routes, etc). If it takes too long to get it up and running it can hamper you so I suppose it's a bit of a tradeoff. The benefit from extra cities is not just the beakers they give, but extra Great Scientist generation. One or two more of those can improve your finish times by a lot.

Religion:
- I tried going Feed The World in a previous game, but I had no time to build temples in most of my cities (and no need with Maya's unique building). Temples also have a steep maintenance cost which can hurt early. I don't think Pagodas are optimal, but I had to take them to keep my growth pace going at the time. Then again Pagodas negated my need to build a single Colosseum so maybe not a bad choice in the end. I will probably take +2 faith from world wonders next time. I don't like the +15% growth belief because it only affects surplus food so it doesn't provide as much benefit early on. I could be wrong on this one though.

NC:
- Always make NC in capital. 3 city NC means I completed construction of NC with 3 cities total. It's a balancing act between getting your cities out fast so they can start growing and getting the NC research boost fast. I find 3 to be optimal but again I could be wrong.

Wonders:
- I can't tell you exact wonder build order because I'm not at my computer but it was something like this: GL (after 1st settler), HG (I made this while getting libraries in my 2nd and 3rd cities), NC, Petra in 3rd city -- then I built a few more wonders just for city state quests like Hagia Sophia, and Borobudur at some point to kickstart religion. Finally I timed Oracle with entrance into Renaissance so I could get a jump on Secularism belief. The only wonder I wanted but didn't get was Temple of Artemis. An AI built it early before I had a chance to even start. I do think that good (and lucky) early wonder timing is the key to success. I feel on this difficulty you don't need to rush wonders. You can build them around early infrastructure. That said... I ragequit another game because AI got Hanging Gardens 1 turn before me, so it can backfire.

Order vs. Freedom:
With my strat, Freedom is definitely better... but take that with a grain of salt. I read a post a while ago here saying Freedom is better with more cities due to specialist bonuses that convinced me to try it. Before I always intuitively thought of Freedom as best for small empires. For example, look at Tulum in my screenshot, size 16. It is around the minimum population to give max science as every single specialist slot is being worked without a food loss. I never sent a single food trade route there. If I wanted I could grow it a few more population easily but what's the point? Once you have all of your specialists working there is a big diminishing return on growth. This is all made possible due to Freedom specialist bonuses. Another thing is, Freedom requires a smaller point investment. You only need to spend 3 points before Space Procurements which gives no benefit until super late. This allows you to finish Rationalism at your leisure and get Commerce policies earlier. More reason to take it with more cities as you may not fill out policies as fast.

Agreed with you on the Commerce > Patronage. Those were my thoughts too. The science boost is also not insignificant as I had a market, bank and stock exchange in every city by the end.

One more thing: Mayan long count timing. The turn times to get a GP are T62, T72, T86, T101, etc. You want to time finishing Theology just before one of these turns to get your first GS and kickstart early science. I find T86 to be a good sweet spot that allows me to get other important techs (like Mathematics for HG) without pushing it back too far.

First finished game, T226 with a pretty standard 4 city tradition and messy endgame. I tried going wide in a previous attempt but that didn't go very well as I ran into gpt problems. And then the barb horsemen made me ragequit that game.

I think I'm going to try going wide some more, because to me it feels like the "right" way to play Maya. In the t226 game I don't think the civ mattered that much, which is a shame.

Second try,turn 263.Broke edu record with turn 94.Seems buying space parts with mercantilism is indeed nice,cost only 1830 gold per every piece.Took +2 faith for each world wonder instead construction bonus.But maybe second thing could be mosque instead,simply to prevent spawn of GP and speed up culture growth.And the key for fast growth is to steal as much is possible workers,stole 3 but even that was'nt enough.I wish only if i could it steal it before.And another idea-if we could somehow speed up culture growth,to spend points for faith discount as well.

T229 this time. Basically 1 GS short again. I wish I had counted them to have a baseline, but I settled the first 3 and bulbed the rest, 2 faith bought. My last GS left me 3 turns away from the last SS part tech which I then had to spend one turn buying. If I had 600-700 more faith I would have finished close to T220 - pretty strong argument for me to build temples next game!

Again I did not get Sciences Funding passed on the first vote. This was because literally every single AI was against it, and I was worried about screwing up my trading partners in the long run. I also didn't want to risk getting voted down.

fils said:

T229 this time. Basically 1 GS short again. I wish I had counted them to have a baseline, but I settled the first 3 and bulbed the rest, 2 faith bought. My last GS left me 3 turns away from the last SS part tech which I then had to spend one turn buying. If I had 600-700 more faith I would have finished close to T220 - pretty strong argument for me to build temples next game!

Again I did not get Sciences Funding passed on the first vote. This was because literally every single AI was against it, and I was worried about screwing up my trading partners in the long run. I also didn't want to risk getting voted down.

Click to expand...

Strange,i see you have korea in game,and so far korea was always pro-science.In my games even Brasil and China was for it as well.Tho what was funny in my game,same turn was also world fair voted which failed,that was first time ever seeing world fair voting failed.Also your approach to make settler before GL is kind a risky,tried that and as result someone builded GL before me so had to ditch that game which was a shame as i had sea and got bonus gold from eldorado.Same goes with building library first in two cities then NC.I guess it work but way way too risky.

One thing on Warlord. Build Chichen Itza before Pisa. With this choose a great artist (or a great general if coal or alu are out of range). With GA, you'll go into perpetual golden age to the end. Then after Pisa one or just before a natural GA spawn with artist's guilds. It's 24s turns in golden age. With Taj Mahal and another one it's all game since Pisa in golden age (20 % food, gold and culture). I think it's better than an instant GS or GE wich delay natural one. And golden age helps a lot to have public shools and labs up quickly.

crocivfanatic said:

Strange,i see you have korea in game,and so far korea was always pro-science.In my games even Brasil and China was for it as well.Tho what was funny in my game,same turn was also world fair voted which failed,that was first time ever seeing world fair voting failed.Also your approach to make settler before GL is kind a risky,tried that and as result someone builded GL before me so had to ditch that game which was a shame as i had sea and got bonus gold from eldorado.Same goes with building library first in two cities then NC.I guess it work but way way too risky.

Click to expand...

I thought so too, but not on the first vote. No one seems to be. Korea and Bab usually switch to pro science on the second vote. It looks like passing culture from wonders first is the way to go. This makes founding world congress early super important, as when you pass sciences funding on the second vote it should speed up your final scientists by a few turns.

Not sure if that's necessary as Maya Memoryjar. Wouldn't a GA from the long count calendar accomplish the same thing?

fils said:

I thought so too, but not on the first vote. No one seems to be. Korea and Bab usually switch to pro science on the second vote. It looks like passing culture from wonders first is the way to go. This makes founding world congress early super important, as when you pass sciences funding on the second vote it should speed up your final scientists by a few turns.

Not sure if that's necessary as Maya Memoryjar. Wouldn't a GA from the long count calendar accomplish the same thing?

Click to expand...

Well,in 3 games which i tried so far korea and someone else was for it in first round.Who knows what affect that,maybe it is completely random.Also what i noticed here,to get first free great person you need to discover theology before turn 90.
Also,it seems mosque was totally bad idea -i didn't even filled all cities with pagodas,i was already in industrial era where it cost 600 faith.+2 per world wonder obviously much better thing.Now i ruined potential better score due that,and i got start for first time by getting Parthenon during discovering 2 faith cs,and i used it for getting sun God,as there was 2 citrus and one banana field.

crocivfanatic said:

Also what i noticed here,to get first free great person you need to discover theology before turn 90.

Click to expand...

I believe you get the first free Great People on turns 62, 72, 86 and 101. Theology should be possible to get before t62 with Maya's UB and Great Library. Not sure if it's worth it though.

Personally I'm trying a 6 city opener Tradition game now. The strategy was to get 6 cities with libraries up by t86, have Theology researched by then, and use a Great Engineer for NC. I had to go for quick Pagodas for happiness and chose the t101 person to be a Great Prophet to enhance religion.

I'd say it's going alright so far. Wish the land was better, I don't have desert tiles in my cities so no Petra and Morocco beat me to HG as well. I think I should be able to finish faster than my previous attempt if I play it right. Sitting on turn 135 right now:

vadalaz said:

I believe you get the first free Great People on turns 62, 72, 86 and 101. Theology should be possible to get before t62 with Maya's UB and Great Library. Not sure if it's worth it though.

Personally I'm trying a 6 city opener Tradition game now. The strategy was to get 6 cities with libraries up by t86, have Theology researched by then, and use a Great Engineer for NC. I had to go for quick Pagodas for happiness and chose the t101 person to be a Great Prophet to enhance religion.

I'd say it's going alright so far. Wish the land was better, I don't have desert tiles in my cities so no Petra and Morocco beat me to HG as well. I think I should be able to finish faster than my previous attempt if I play it right. Sitting on turn 135 right now:

Click to expand...

Hmm usualy i use GE to finish pisa tower or porculan tower,as they take a lot of hammers.What did you used for second religion beside pagoda?

crocivfanatic said:

What did you used for second religion beside pagoda?

Click to expand...

I took +1 from shrines and temples and +30% range as enhancer so it'd spread naturally to my bigger cities and the city-states around.

vadalaz said:

I took +1 from shrines and temples and +30% range as enhancer so it'd spread naturally to my bigger cities and the city-states around.

Click to expand...

Also strategy to get 6 cities full with libraries till turn 86 sounds impossible,as that mean how capitol wont grow at all,nor build GL.Or it can be done anyway ?

crocivfanatic said:

Also strategy to get 6 cities full with libraries till turn 86 sounds impossible,as that mean how capitol wont grow at all,nor build GL.Or it can be done anyway ?

Click to expand...

If your cap is size 4-5 and you lock the production tiles you should be able to get the settlers out pretty quickly. I think mine took 5-6 turns each. As for GL, I figured I didn't have enough time for that and built caravans instead.

vadalaz said:

I believe you get the first free Great People on turns 62, 72, 86 and 101. Theology should be possible to get before t62 with Maya's UB and Great Library. Not sure if it's worth it though.

Personally I'm trying a 6 city opener Tradition game now. The strategy was to get 6 cities with libraries up by t86, have Theology researched by then, and use a Great Engineer for NC. I had to go for quick Pagodas for happiness and chose the t101 person to be a Great Prophet to enhance religion.

I'd say it's going alright so far. Wish the land was better, I don't have desert tiles in my cities so no Petra and Morocco beat me to HG as well. I think I should be able to finish faster than my previous attempt if I play it right. Sitting on turn 135 right now:

Click to expand...

That looks like a pretty strong start, nice. It looks kind of like what I wanted to do in my first game with way better execution. It took me forever to get that 6th city going. Are you planning to take Freedom or Order? And what about first WC vote - sciences funding?

I finished another game - T225 win this time. I basically did a cleaner version of Tradition-Freedom-Commerce from last game with only 4 cities this time. Still did not quite get the timing for GS right at the end... I was more worried about having enough gold to buy parts, which ended up being a non issue. Should have focused on research. I have another promising game going now hoping to beat T220.

I'm also wondering if taking the right AI capital early could pay off in the long run.