Domination on Immortal/Deity - a noob's guide

Maxattack said:

how many Archers do you usually upgrade when you hit Construction around T55

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A: As many as possible. I like 8, since that is enough to surround a city and take it down in a couple of turns.

how do you reliably find the money to do so (do you never buy tiles or something ?)

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Best sources of money, in approximate descending order of decentness:

1. Selling spare lux to AIs you have a DoF with
2. Selling strategics to AIs you have a DoF with
3. as above but GPT
4. as above but GPT
5. Meeting CS
6. Clearing camps
7. Gold ruins
8. Pillaging

If you're active with barb quests, try to cultivate a DoF, and trade as best you can, and use your many workers to improve stuff and sell it, you can easily have 300 gold, and sometimes a lot more. In the Japan game that was posted above, I had 656 gold when I hit Construction.

Is settling on mining luxes a strong requirement (like Moriarte suggests) ?

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It's a boon, not a requirement. In this game, I did not settle on a mine, but there were multiple salts and elephants to be sold.


I also usually have a problem with Melee units in my army. When want to hit Construction fast I do not go for Bronze Working. I can only build Warriors and I more often than not find myself facing 25 CS cities which one shoot my poor units.

You should not be at war if the city+garrisoned unit's combined attacks can 1-shot your units. You want to have a melee unit with 95HP be able to survive both, and withdraw him, to be replaced with another.

It usually happens with civs I am already at war with since worker stealing. Does that make them build walls early and should I therefore be declaring a "surprise war" instead ?

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I'd say that more than 75% of the time I make peace after 2 worker steals, as the civ I stole workers from MAY NOT be the civ I want to take my 1st capital from, and I can concentrate on other things while I prepare for the first war.

I don't know if the AI is coded to build Walls when you won't make peace, or what causes them to build walls in general. Trial and error, and practice is how I've gotten a feel for whether or not to attack. I'm not the most mathematical player, and not the most protective of my units, and frankly, I lose some to 1-shot attacks. When this happens, I either retreat and worker bait or just let the casualties happen. If you have lots of units you can afford to lose some and keep the momentum. Watch any of my videos and you will see I lose more than the Ackens of the world.

Another question : at the moment I practice warring early and trying to clear my Continent before meeting the rest of the world. Do you manage to do this often or is this a more rare game configuration ? What strategy do you use to do this ? CB to XB ? XB on multiple fronts ? I usually try to take out an AI entirely before I move on to the next one but maybe I should focus on the capitals and clear the rest once everyone is weakened ?

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Clearing continents on Deity is quite tricky, and you're not always in a great position once the capital is cleared, but I'd say you can safely do that and then choose any VC. In the most recent CDG, I found the other AIs were very far ahead in science when I met them, and I was still able to get a Diplomatic win easily. Domination on Continents just takes longer and involves either Frigates, swimming Artillery, or, if you've made really good time and the AI is behind in tech, swimming XBs/Canons, etc.

mbbcam said:

Perhaps this will help explain why!!

https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk

Crazy stuff ...

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That was SICK!!!!

consentient said:

This would be a good map for practising Liberty CB rush on Deity. The domination sweep will likely be problematic after the first victim, so it might also be a good map for practising midge ingenuity.

I have recorded 2 parts of an LP for this map, showcasing worker steals and a CB rush.


Link to video.

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Won the Zulu map on t190. Brave Impis were taking defense 85 Warsaw, but I had to buy cannons, or else it would be impossible. Who knew Impis can take head on the most op winged hussars? Well, it was fun. Got Washington in peace deal and called it a day.

@consetient

Ok, I'll try your tips ! I guess I don't focus enough on barb quests. I always fear my Archers will be too far from home when I have to upgrade them...

Also I noticed that at the time I get to Construction, my expos are usually just done with their Monuments and rarely have the time to do even one Archer. Is that normal ? I don't always have forests to chop and in those cases the Monuments take forever...

I've started to play with the HB Maps and I have to say I really love them ! But I have noticed that, in this mod, even with strategic balance deactivated, the AI usually has plenty of horses and I can't sell any to them...

Do you have one of your LPs in particular to suggest for a typical CB rush ?

Archers shouldn't stray too far but it sounds to me like you are building many things too late. T25-35 is typical for collective rule, and it shouldn't take more than 6 turns to train the other Settler. Plus maybe 3 or 4 turns to walk him to his city location. If you aren't gonna have enough Archers to upgrade, then maybe get Sailing or Calendar or Bronze Working so as to delay enough to build more. The judgment call is getting the upgraded units into position while they are still relevant.

As for LPs, watch Ackens with China and Babylon for pretty typical rushes

consentient said:

T25-35 is typical for collective rule...

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This makes me wonder what I doing wrong as, absent a culture ruin, it seems to me I open my first tree around T22/23 most every game.

consentient said:

Archers shouldn't stray too far but it sounds to me like you are building many things too late. T25-35 is typical for collective rule, and it shouldn't take more than 6 turns to train the other Settler. Plus maybe 3 or 4 turns to walk him to his city location. If you aren't gonna have enough Archers to upgrade, then maybe get Sailing or Calendar or Bronze Working so as to delay enough to build more. The judgment call is getting the upgraded units into position while they are still relevant.

As for LPs, watch Ackens with China and Babylon for pretty typical rushes

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Actually I re-read Moriarte's guide and he actually suggests an archer as second build only in the first expo so maybe I shouldn't worry too much
Getting CR on turn 25 sounds crazy, if I'm calculating right it would need a very early culture ruin... But T35 seems reasonable, I'll have to check when I usually get it.

Do you camp the barb camps (huhu) to get more promotions and wait for the quests ?

I've already watched Acken's China game but I must admit I was too busy enjoying the craziness of the play and didn't really pay attention to the early game ^^ I'll rewatch it more carefully and the Babylon one too.

Thanks for the advice, I'll tell you how it goes !

@beetle: sounds like it could possibly be bad scouting. I almost always get a culture ruin. IIRC, werent you the guy who taunted the barbs with the scout to get promotions? If so, i would once again underline the importance of scouting the area around your capital and getting all the ruins that by rights should be yours.

@max: I dont wait near camps unless im sure they WILL ask for it and the AI is uninvolved.

consentient said:

sounds like it could possibly be bad scouting. I almost always get a culture ruin.

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Feels like I have been playing mostly games with ruins disabled lately -- so I only just picked up on how consistent is the T22/23 thing. I should run the math! But hitting a second or third cultural CS can make a fair difference too.

IIRC, werent you the guy who taunted the barbs with the scout to get promotions?

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Yes, and based on that thread I have changed my early game habits! Nowadays I only worry about leveling up to +2 vision after my other units (settler and/or archer) are out and about.

I haven't found any tangible benefit from added vision on Scouts. Much better IMHO is to use the Scout as an Archer, a city capture unit, a human monument, the list goes on... On large maps or Epic speed maybe it's worth promoting the Scouts but the quicker you can reveal the whole map or get an extra CB for free, the better.

beetle said:

This makes me wonder what I doing wrong as, absent a culture ruin, it seems to me I open my first tree around T22/23 most every game.

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Sounds like you're delaying your Monuments. If you're not playing a Tradition game, you pretty much *have to* go Scout/Scout/Monument or Scout/Monument/Scout

consentient said:

I haven't found any tangible benefit from added vision on Scouts.

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I like unfogging the map and, after they get vision, I run my scouts along the coast. When the caravels come on line later to finish the job, I set them to auto-explore and with coastal waters clear, they mostly stay out of trouble.

Much better IMHO is to use the Scout as an Archer, a city capture unit, a human monument, the list goes on...

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I think everyone agrees that the archer upgrade is the best. Unless they get the extra move, I have never had much success using them to take cities. The AIs loves to kill units when it can, it is about its only tactical move! Duty as garrison for extra culture from Tradition is sensible, especially for this guide where all your other units will be on the front line! My scouts tend to be unfogging right up until they can site on Archeology sites. Your games are over by then!

On large maps or Epic speed maybe it's worth promoting the Scouts but the quicker you can reveal the whole map or get an extra CB for free, the better.

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On a standard size map, Scouts that have taken the time to get +2 vision (including healing time) unfog faster than scouts that just keep moving.

stormtrooper412 said:

Sounds like you're delaying your Monuments. If you're not playing a Tradition game, you pretty much *have to* go Scout/Scout/Monument or Scout/Monument/Scout

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Yeah, I am doing Scout/Scout/Shrine/Monument. For the T22 that stuck in my head, that must be with hitting a cultural CS. Castle and Monument are both 1cpt, yes? And your first policy tree opens with 25 culture, correct? Follows is the math, assuming no ruins and no CS, 5 turns to build a scout, and 8 turns to build a monument or shrine.
But what I think most people are concerned with is the timing later policies, not the least of which is Collective Rule. So that is 70 more culture, and after lots more RNG.

Scout, Monument, Scout is a huge difference for Liberty. I only go Scout, Scout if I hit a Culture ruin with Warrior, or if Im playing America or Shoshone

beetle said:

Yeah, I am doing Scout/Scout/Shrine/Monument. For the T22 that stuck in my head, that must be with hitting a cultural CS. Castle and Monument are both 1cpt, yes? And your first policy tree opens with 25 culture, correct? Follows is the math, assuming no ruins and no CS, 5 turns to build a scout, and 8 turns to build a monument or shrine.

Build Order | Turn to Monument | Turn to 1st SP
Monument, whatever | 8 | 17
Scout, Monument, Scout | 13 | 19
Scout, Scout, Monument | 18 | 22
Scout, Scout, Shrine, Monument | 26 | 25

But what I think most people are concerned with is the timing later policies, not the least of which is Collective Rule. So that is 70 more culture, and after lots more RNG.

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Monument actually gives 2CPT.
Assuming you do Scout -> Monument -> whetever and no culture ruin you get something like :
1 CPT from T1 to T12 = 12 culture
3 CPT from T13 to T17 = 15 culture
4 CPT from there to get CR = 88 culture = 22 turns
So you would get it on T39 and this is indeed what I usually observe. Then I get the first expo around T45 with its Monument finishing around T55 and the second expo gets the same 10 turns later (4-7 turns to build the Settler, the rest to move to the intended location).

Of couse this changes dramatically if you get a ruin and/or a CS

Your estimates also assume pretty long build times for Monuments. If you steal and/or build workers, you can improve your hammer tiles and get everything faster.

What I'm saying is that those are very conservative estimates.

I am happy to have the corrections! How many turns for scout and monument would you like me to use?

Also, there's nothing preventing you from building settlers before CR, so if you think it'll take too long to get an extra pop due to more hammer tiles, go ahead and hard build settler.

consentient said:

Your estimates also assume pretty long build times for Monuments. If you steal and/or build workers, you can improve your hammer tiles and get everything faster.

What I'm saying is that those are very conservative estimates.

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I rarely get a worker in the first 10 turns even though I often camp open spots near the AIs borders where I know they'll improve early for a few turns ! When I do get one that early the game usually becomes very smooth from the beginning ^^

But true, replaying a few starts I noticed I'm often able to build the Monument in 6 turns when I settle on a hill and have only 2f1h tiles and no 3f tiles (I generally lock those down first). That should be 2 or 3 turns better for CR Yesterday I played a game and got CR on T26 and there was nothing more than an early culture ruin so it's definitely possible !

Sclb said:

Also, there's nothing preventing you from building settlers before CR, so if you think it'll take too long to get an extra pop due to more hammer tiles, go ahead and hard build settler.

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I guess if you're 20 turns from your next pop and have nothing better to do, that's a good idea expecially if you already have three workers. I'll try this to see how it works.

Hard building a settler before CR is quite "situational". The only way you'd want a super early Settler is if you want to grab LV/Kili/KSM/2xSalt or sth but it's kind of pointless unless you have at least 3 pop working the hammer-heavy tiles. From my experience, the "safest" Liberty opener is Scout, Monument, Scout, Shrine if good Pantheon, otherwise Worker or 2xWorker, spam Settlers, buy an Archer in the meantime since you will probably meet enough city states and hit at least one gold ruin. Stealing a worker in that case makes less impact but it's still good. Your early workers should either chop or improve Horses/Cows first for hammers, then connect luxuries and then farm riverside tiles.

I agree with everything ST says except I would prioritise tiles with 2 hammers naturally over Cows or Horses, since improved tiles with 3+ hammers are the best things for making Settlers.

Its true that not every start gives a worker steal opportunity, but since I only play on AB and HB maps, I have to say that more than 3/4 of all rolls present an early steal. Plus, you can nearly always steal from a CS a little bit later.

My average worker count in a Liberty Domination game on T45, when I like to have my expansion finished by would be something like:

3 stolen from AI/CS
2/3 trained

And by T60, when I want to be going to war, I can usually expect 3 more, from a mixture of Pyramids, steals with AI or CS I didnt make peace with, the free one, and maybe another trained.

I usually like 7 or 8 workers when I go to war, more if I need war roads and bait/blockers