Warhammer: Heart of Chaos teasers

The reason I use the > things is that for some reason when I try to multi-quote, it doesn't work.

That is why I prefer FF, it goes beyond the incomplex and backward FfH and makes it into a proper mod by radicaly changing it.
>Remember, FfH is the most downloaded mod for Civ4 I believe. Firaxis even hired Kael to work on BTS, did they hire the FF crew? And remember, without FfH, there is no FF.

Actualy, that is true for only the minority of users. Most will poke around untill they figure it out.
>I am refering to after they poke around. If its not intuitive, people tend to drop it. Why play something you don't understand?

Summing up, as opposed to PPQ, I prefer a more FfH style to the mod, where there are unique and interesting things to do, but not taken to far like FF. Keep it nice, streamlined, and lean. Currenly, this discussion is getting nowhere until PL can make a verdict. Ahriman, any thoughts? and PPQ, can we get back on topic and quit talking about game prefrences?
 
Ajidica said:
The reason I use the > things is that for some reason when I try to multi-quote, it doesn't work.

That is why I prefer FF, it goes beyond the incomplex and backward FfH and makes it into a proper mod by radicaly changing it.
>Remember, FfH is the most downloaded mod for Civ4 I believe. Firaxis even hired Kael to work on BTS, did they hire the FF crew? And remember, without FfH, there is no FF.

Actualy, that is true for only the minority of users. Most will poke around untill they figure it out.
>I am refering to after they poke around. If its not intuitive, people tend to drop it. Why play something you don't understand?

Summing up, as opposed to PPQ, I prefer a more FfH style to the mod, where there are unique and interesting things to do, but not taken to far like FF. Keep it nice, streamlined, and lean. Currenly, this discussion is getting nowhere until PL can make a verdict.
Click to expand...

actually we weren't hired by firaxis. firaxis/take2 published our work but they didn't pay us(and money wasn't the reason to join the project but simply fun)

I'm all for streamlining. More isn't allways better in many cases it's just too much. FF is certainly a good mod but it's also a very complex expansion to an already very complex mod. the learn curve is high for basic FFH already having all FF features plus WH specific feature might soon be too much for most players...
 
I could have sworn that somewhere I read that Kael and someone else was hired on interned with Firaxis as a design consultant. Thanks for correcting me.
 
We have two oposing opinions than. As far as I am concerned, when playing FfH or Wolfhanze or Civ++ and someone asks me what I am playing, I reply: "Civ", but when I am playing FF and someone asks me the same, I say: "FF". Becouse FF is almost not civ any more.
This is what I think WHFB should be aming for, a WHFB feeling and a WHFB experiance.
The steaper the learning curve, the more hours of play you will enjoy after the learning is over. The best part is when in the middle of game 50 you can still learn something new.
Othervise, it will get old like C&C games where you learn how to play and than have 10-20 random skirmishes and it becomes a game you play once in a mounth. That is why I quit playing vanila FfH, it simply got repetative, boring and bland.
 
Remember, this is still Civ, not lets make a mod from the ground up. Heck, even CivCol, built almost from the ground up, still has many civ-like functions.
Lastly, I realize it is a matter of opinion, but how is FfH bland? Besides adding a few more civs (some I feel aren't that great. Eg: Khadi, do we really need a modified Sheaim?), buildings that are there becasue they can be, wonders IIRC, scads of new promos that confuse the heck out of me and I'm pretty sure alot of people, and corps, what does FF do better?

NOTE: Although I may not like FF, I fully respect that the work done by Vehem, xienwolf, and the other contributors is excellent. I do like some FF concepts like the 'Gone to Hell' victory option.
 
But that is exacly what this should turn into. A mod that is civ, but only at the base level.
Above the base level, it should be WHFB. It should be something that is almost stand alone. Something easily recognised and distinguished from all other mods. Something that will make you quit playing other mods or vanila and keep you glued to your seat for days and weeks on end.
 
D**n. You reply fast. To sell a mod, people should understand it without reading a manual (Which I am likely the only person who actualy reads the manual before a problem) and feel comfortable, not out of their element. People like FfH because its easy to understand, but with alot of depth to it. FF starts right in the deep end, which if you happen to already understant it, its fine. But to the rest of us who are just starting it, it is intimidating.

You do to be slightly misinterpreting me, I am of the opinion that is should be a total conversion mod, but not add things for the sake of adding them. Basicly what Ploeperpengel said.

EDIT: Wow, I really need to get a life, 4 posts in the same thread in 1 hour.
 
I think this mod will be plenty new, special and different without being able to slowly construct improvements before researching their tech requirement.

Come on, people, this is a very minor design decision.
 
I am forced to agree, if I hate it, I can mod it out in my copy. Its funny how to most miniscule issues can be the most decisive.
 
basically what ive gathered from this heated debate is that

a) we need more help texts

b) there will always be disagreements

c) It might be wise to make improvements being buildable from the start slower a game option if this is a common argument. though i dont know how hard game options are to make.
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
basically what ive gathered from this heated debate is that

a) we need more help texts

b) there will always be disagreements

c) It might be wise to make improvements being buildable from the start slower a game option if this is a common argument. though i dont know how hard game options are to make.
Click to expand...
From what I have read, not that hard.

As for A and B, thau are a genius as always.
 
From what I have read, not that hard.
Click to expand...

ill keep that as a consideration then.


now back ontopic of the next version:

Ploeperpengal has very kindly agreed to rejoin the team for a while to help with the merge. he saw me floundering and going about things the hard way, as i tend to do :p and is doing a lot of work with the DLL and even more stuff i dont wuite undertand :p

im truly grateful for his help again and you guys can bet your bottom dollar that you will see a new version much faster now ;) (though im not going to give you guys an ETA or ploep a deadline because its a favour from ploep, so thanks for being patient with us :) )
 
Faster, code faster! <cracks whip>

As for in-game documentation, I'd say the best thing to do is to identify and post on the forums any feature which seems like it needs more documentation. Its much harder to identify things that might be confusing when you already know what the thing was supposed to do (and of course it seems obvious once you know).

Some things (like spell descriptions) are obviously missing, but others less so.
We can create a list of Warhammer Mod Mechanics for the civilopedia that explain particular features.

But I am of the opinion of prioritizing features over documentation; implement first, document later.
 
As for in-game documentation, I'd say the best thing to do is to identify and post on the forums any feature which seems like it needs more documentation. Its much harder to identify things that might be confusing when you already know what the thing was supposed to do (and of course it seems obvious once you know).

Some things (like spell descriptions) are obvious, but others less so.
We can create a list of Warhammer Mod Mechanics for the civilopedia that explain particular features.

But I am of the opinion of prioritizing features over documentation; implement first, document later.
Click to expand...

i agree with this, im going to create a thread where people can post questions about things that confuse them, particularly undocumented things, this will also help with creating documentation (and like ahriman says, because were the ones who made it, many things seem obvious to us, so new players input is very helpful in this regard)

So dont feel shy about asking what stuff does! :p
 
@ PPQ_Purple,

ive been thinking on what i could use your help with and i finally figured out one thing which is pretty essential to the mod, but is currently toatlly broken, and that is the Fear and Terror mechanics.

What im thinking, is would it be possible for you to changet the "bFear" tag and add a new "bTerror" tags in the PromotionInfos XML file?

for the bFear tag what im thinking is:

if a unit has a promotion which causes fear, then every time before combat is engaged (both offensive and defensive) between that unit and an enemy unit reduce the enemys combat strength by 15% for that combat only. in addition, increase the enemy units withdrawl chance by 10%. In addition, if the enemy unit flees from combat reduce their movement to zero until the start of the next turn**.

for the bTerror tag, im thinking pretty much the same as bFear, but reduce enemy combat strength by 30%, before combat is engaged, and if the unit flees, reduce their strength by 15% untill the start of the next turn in addition to the zero movement**.

On top of these there should be bImmuneFear and b ImmuneTerror tags which cause those units to not be affected by fear and terror effects in combat.

**NOTE: ideally instead of fear and terror making the enemy flee and lose movement for a turn, it would be cool if they had a 5% chance (with fear) and 10% chance (with terror) to become AI controlled for a random duration between 1 and 3 turns and told to avoid combat at all costs for that time, preferably retreating to the nearest friendly culture zone. each turn units 'fleeing' in this manner should have a 33% chance to 'Rally' and have control returned to the owner at the end of turn, and if the duration runs out before the unit ralley in this manner control should be returned regardless. if a fleeing unit DOES engage in combat by getting attacked they should get -15% strength and no withdrawl chance regardless of other withdrawl chance changing effects.

im not entirely sure how workable this idea is...
 
I like my design better:

"Cause Fear" promotion.
Gives +10% strength (or equivalently, subtracts -10% enemy strength) in combat against all units not immune to fear or psychology. (Heroes, undead, particularly courageous, holy warrior types, demons, should be immune to fear).

"Cause Terror" promotion
Units have a 35% chance of being unable to attack a unit with the Cause Terror promotion, unless they are immune to fear or psychology.
If they fail to attack, they receive the "routed" promotion, which gives -5 moves, -40% strength, +30% withdraw chance and expires with 100% probability after one turn.
If possible, also add the "routed" promotion to any units that withdraw from a unit with Cause Terror, either offensively or defensively (ie either units that successfully attack the Terror unit but withdraw without killing it, or units attacked by the terror unit that lose the fight but manage to withdraw)
[Not sure if we also want the "scatters units" offensive effect of terror, I'd say no need.]

This captures elements of both fear designs, and a unit could have fear, or terror, or both.

Also; cut back on the units that have fear and terror to where they used to be; these should be rare promotions, limited to units that cause supernatural fear affects (mostly undead or demons) or are truly, truly terrifying (like dragons).
Click to expand...

Making units become AI controlled is an incredibly Not Fun feature. The frustration of losing a carefully fostered and highly promoted unit or hero because it happened to run in fear and go AI-rogue for a few turns where it gets itself killed.... definitely not fun.

Also, remember that each turn is a significant amount of time, each map tile a significant distance, and each unit an entire regiment. A regiment isn't going to keep running for dozens of miles over a couple of weeks (or months) because they saw a nasty monster. The effects of a fear effect should all be implemented and resolved within the turn or one turn following.

I'd also like to keep the fear and terror effects separate; one is combat strength, the other is a defensive weapon. If you want both effects, give both promotions; don't make Terror a stronger version of the Fear promotion.
 
I have to agree with Ahriman on this. Losing your troops to an AI even for 1 turn is extreamly anoying.
As for the rest, I am looking it up in the FF thread and the turtorials, esentialy you would have to run a check before each combat:
Code: 
if(unit1 has fear & unit2 is not fear imune)
unit2:strenth-=15%.

I think I can code this.

I just need to know what files exacly I should use as a source. The original FFH, FF, or WHB or something else?
 
PPQ_Purple said:
I have to agree with Ahriman on this. Losing your troops to an AI even for 1 turn is extreamly anoying.
As for the rest, I am looking it up in the FF thread and the turtorials, esentialy you would have to run a check before each combat:
Code: 
if(unit1 has fear & unit2 is not fear imune)
unit2:strenth-=15%.

I think I can code this.

I just need to know what files exacly I should use as a source. The original FFH, FF, or WHB or something else?[/QUOTE]

Probably best to use FFH 0.40z that's what I work on atm.
Click to expand...
 
Treat "immune to fear" as a property of the following promotions (is it easy to add more?):
Daemon
Undead
Hero
Courage
Golem
Elemental
Dragon

Any others I'm missing?
 
it would be easyer to add bFearImmune as a boolian i think to the XML so you can make any promotion grant fear immunity, rather than gardcoding it to certain promotions (yep ive been reading xienwolfs DLL tutorial lol)
 
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