Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

6 Unique features that only appear on the map if Lizardmen are in the game (we should be able to code this easily using python, editing the map generation scripts)

I still think they should have the normal feature chance of appearing even if Lizards aren't present.

Disaster spells might also need multiple turn casting time.

Eruption should be castable only inside enemy territory!

* Lizardman Palace: automatically builds a Sacred Spawning Pond in every lizardman city on top of other palace benefits. Provides 5 Slann Points.

Remove the "Slann points" from this and the other buildings. The Archos spawn mechanism doesn't need them.
For a draft, how about:
Slann spawn only from Lizardman palace. Base chance per turn of spawn = 2%. Chance of spawning a new Slann drops by 0.4% for each Slann you already have, down to 0% if you control 5 Slann.

Can we also make them somehow not spawn until you have the Magic of the Old Ones tech?

# Sacred Spawning Ponds:
requires ancient lore tech.

# Skink Barrio:
Why do we still need this? Just have the shaman require the spawning ponds and the Temple, you removed the Skink ritual.

# Saurus Spawning Chambers:
Requires tactics tech.

# Hatchery:
Requires monster taming tech.

* Skink Shaman Spawning: requires ‘Skink Barrio’, ‘Temple of the Old Ones’, and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Skink Shamen. Requires Tech ???. Cost???

Requires magic of the old ones tech, and winds of magic tech.
remove the skink barrio requirement.
Needs to be capped so skink shaman can't exceed a national limit of ~10.
Also, note that the skink shaman will only be able to learn level 1 magic. Which is good, IMO. They're generalists, but weak.

A rule of thumb for costs; have the rituals use the same hammer cost as the average cost of the created units plus half the cost of the most common upgrade. (The upgrade gold cost is halved by the ingenuity trait).

So for example; the saurus ritual creates braves, which will mostly upgrade to saurus warrior.
Suppose that the axeman warband (~- saurus brave) costs 60 hammers, and the saurus warrior costs 80 hammers.
Then, the saurus ritual that makes 3-5 brave should cost 4*(60+(80-60)/2) = 280

# Saurus Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 3-5 Saurus Braves. Requires Tech ???. Cost???
Tech requirement = tactics. (redundant though, because of the building requirement)
Cost = 4x (axeman cost + (pikemen cost -axeman cost)/2)

# Kroxigor Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’, ‘Skink Barrio’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Kroxigors. Requires Tech ???. Cost???
Requires military tradition tech.
Cost = 2x pikemen cost.
Needs a limit to prevent exceeding national limit cap.

# Beast Spawning: requires ‘Hatchery’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 hatchlings. Requires Tech ???. Cost???
Requires tech: monster taming.
 
Kalim/Kalim Devout sound like a good Amazonian priest/crusader units (at priesthood and fanaticism techs).

Kalim
Strength 5+1 holy. 1 move. Immune to mind spells. Immune to fear. Can cast cure disease. Medic 1. March. 50% death resistance.

Kalim Devout
Strength 5+1 holy +2 lightning (power weapons)
1 move. Immune to mind spells. Immune to fear. Can cast cure disease. Medic 1. March. 50% death resistance.

Arcane rod could be a level 2 Amazon magic Spellstaff.

Some amazon units could be mounted on jaguars.
 
Disaster spells might also need multiple turn casting time.

Eruption should be castable only inside enemy territory!

ok done

Why do we still need this? Just have the shaman require the spawning ponds and the Temple, you removed the Skink ritual.

i like the name and the flavour of it. how about we replace the normal barracks with the Skink Barrio then and have it still influence slann spawn rate and ritual production speed.

Added changes the Post 178
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8457543&postcount=178
 
i like the name and the flavour of it.

I think the name is strange; barrio is just Spanish for neighborhood. It will feel pretty weird to any north, south or central american; barrio is often used in a similar manner as ghetto, or favela (in Brazil).
how about we replace the normal barracks with the Skink Barrio
This seems ok.

A lot of the other buildings (training yard, stables, etc.) should all be blocked for Lizards.

If you still want training effects, then tie them into the Saurus chambers, hatchery, etc.

have it still influence slann spawn rate and ritual production speed.
I think the Slann spawn rate should be unaffected by anything except the number of slann you have, and that they are only spawning in the capital.
Thats how Archos work.

I think the total bonus to rituals from buildings should be no more than ~20-25%.
 
Blocked Units:
No Militia Spearman
No Militia archers
I think we could bring this up to 75% if you still had to build not just the tier1 skinks, but also could build a few core tier2 units, like militia spearman/militia archer replacements (and their militia swordsmen ideally, but I'm guessing that you wanting your militia swordsmen replacement saurus to spawn as this is your central saurus unit).
Unless you’re talking unblock Militia Spearman & Archers, I don’t think we need to worry about this. I don’t think Lizardmen are too big on Militia anyway. They tend to be more hordes of skinks with specialty and elite units, all led by the Slann.

the intention is that these spells be world disaster spells, that means because it is a world spell only one unit can cast it at a time, so if one slann cast solar flare, all other slann would have to wait 8 turns to be able to cast it again.

we could possibly make these global disaster spells (solar flare, eclipse) require another ritual to be built to be able to recast them instead of a cooldown period? the other ones, (earthquake, tsunami, meteor and eruption are less OPed i think, and could just have a longer cooldown time?
I think the cooldown period idea is good. Just have it longer maybe. Like 15 turns? These are really powerful spells. So powerful that no other civ, in the thousands of years since the Old Ones left, have mastered them. Most other spells are a pale imitation powerwise. Hell, the closest civ to the Lizardmen powerwise on spells, are the High Elves and they’re nothing to the Slann spells.
I'd also suggest you consider converting these super-spells to rituals (buildable in the cities - another thing to spend hammers on) rather than spells on the Slann.
Possibly Slann could create an Inspiriation-type building in cities (lasts as long as they are present) that boosts the production of Rituals.

this could be workable, i quite like it.
Hmm…maybe. I like the idea of the actual Slann units casting the spells. But I’m not too adamant either way. I guess my question is…which option would the AI understand better? Cuz neither rituals or spells are hardwired into the AI from vanilla. But the disasters were kinda hardwired into the AI in that vanilla scenario. (Whatever the hell it’s called. Haven’t played it in…years.)
I haven't played Grigori in a long-ass time, so I don't know if they fixed this, but in the earlier versions of FFH the advenrurer mechanic didn't really work very well, because adventurers would be crowded out by other GPP types, either from specialists or wonders.
Is this likely to happen here? Or can they track adventurers/slann separately from normal GPPs?
this is true. we could make it so that lizardmen can upgrade any great person into a slann regardless of if it is adventure or not?
This sounds feasible. Only thing I’d add is make it so “adventurers” can only be upgraded to Slann.
I don't know how much this makeover will change the game. But one thing that I have experienced is, that the wood elves seem overpowered. They always end up being at the top of the game.

How about using the 'Mothers Nest' spider spawning mechanic thatthe Archos use? the number of spiders that spawn is reletive to the number of spides in existance, and it is adjusted with buildigns. i think this would be the best way to go.
This seems the best suggestion. Easiest to balance. Already in the code. Etc.
iv) Have Slann just be expensive units buildable with hammers, with a small national limit.
definately not.
*clears throat* NO! Doesn’t fit the Lizardmen lore at all. Besides, could be way too easily abused. There’s only been 5 Slann spawning EVER. Even with a national cap, it still wouldn’t reflect the point.
 
I think the name is strange; barrio is just Spanish for neighborhood. It will feel pretty weird to any north, south or central american; barrio is often used in a similar manner as ghetto, or favela (in Brazil).

well its a cannon name :p its on a map in the lizardman rulebook...

This seems ok.

A lot of the other buildings (training yard, stables, etc.) should all be blocked for Lizards.

If you still want training effects, then tie them into the Saurus chambers, hatchery, etc.

cool, agreed

I think the total bonus to rituals from buildings should be no more than ~20-25%.

i think thats too low. these rituals are going to cost more than wonders!
 
i think thats too low. these rituals are going to cost more than wonders!

I disagree. In this case, the rituals cost basically the same as the units would, and so ritual production bonuses are equivalent to military production bonuses. You don't think that a civ getting military production bonuses of 30% or more could be a problem, without some kind of offset?
 
I disagree. In this case, the rituals cost basically the same as the units would, and so ritual production bonuses are equivalent to military production bonuses. You don't think that a civ getting military production bonuses of 30% or more could be a problem, without some kind of offset?

ok. well see how it plays out then :)
 
Regarding lizardman unique features in the game, if the lizardmen are not present what about having the unique features spawn barbarian lizardmen guardians?
 
hidden censor bearers which gives +1 strength and +1 poison strength. This promotion counts towards the national limit; ie if you have 5 bearers and sacrifice 1 in this manner, you can't build another. Code similar to Austrin pegasai in Fall Further mod. can cast a spell to detatch the 'censor bearer'.
If we're coding this similar to the Austrin Pegasi in FF, it's technically a unit. The Austrin Pegasi is coded in the FF UnitInfos. I think we should do it the same way. So, for coding purposes, this should be a unit. I believe some python is also attached to the Austrin Pegasi to allow them to join/separate from units. We should also do that for the Hidden Censor Bearers.
 
hi all)i have a probleme with warhammer mod,i amn installed civ 4 and beyond the sword addon than setup mod...than download a no-cd/no-dvd for BTS and launched the game chose warhammer mod,click on play now(or play new i didnt remember)chose planet(continents)chose race Kisilev chose a marathon game and warlord skills and start tha game and when INIT-GRAPHCIS loading the game crashes i didn"t know why...plz help me)


sry for my bad engleash)
 
Welcome to the forums murka :wavey:

this is the wrong thread to ask for help, you should really ask for help here: [LINK]

do you have patch 3.17, or patch 3.19? it dosnt work with 3.19.

also, we are workign on a new version so are not continuing the old one. hopefully it will be better and less buggy :)
 
i have 3.0,3 i think....i m didnt patch BTS)))and when the new version will come out???
 
you need to patch BTS up to 3.17 for it to work. do NOT patch up to 3.19 or it wont work.

its hard to say when the next version with be released. some time for a fun bug free one, but the alpha shouldnt be too much longer.
 
Hi there!

I got brought here by deadliver :lol: I'm don't know much about Warhammer's universe but I'm willing to help with the modding, if you would want o, P_L (or any other guy in charge). Mostly, I could help with the SDK :) I'm able to mod the XML or the Python too, though.
 
Regarding lizardman unique features in the game, if the lizardmen are not present what about having the unique features spawn barbarian lizardmen guardians?

Absolutely the intention is that the various barbarian unit spawers will make appropriate lizard, greenskin, undead or whatever units.
f we're coding this similar to the Austrin Pegasi in FF, it's technically a unit. The Austrin Pegasi is coded in the FF UnitInfos. I think we should do it the same way. So, for coding purposes, this should be a unit. I believe some python is also attached to the Austrin Pegasi to allow them to join/separate from units. We should also do that for the Hidden Censor Bearers.

The censor bearers would function identically to Austrin Pegasai. The censor bearers are a unit, like the pegasai, that you build with hammers as normal. You then can join them onto another unit B, which makes the bearer unit disappear and adds a promotion to unit B with some features.
I don't know how the game still tracks the national limit (its still a unit even without a physical model?), but it does.
 
Hi there!

I got brought here by deadliver I'm don't know much about Warhammer's universe but I'm willing to help with the modding, if you would want o, P_L (or any other guy in charge). Mostly, I could help with the SDK I'm able to mod the XML or the Python too, though.

OMG i had to re read that post twice to check you said what i think you said! you absolute Saint Opera! none of us have any clue how to mod the SDK in the slightest. there are quite a few things that we would really like done in the SDK. i cant remember them all off the top of my head though.

you seriously made my day :)
 
OMG i had to re read that post twice to check you said what i think you said! you absolute Saint Opera! none of us have any clue how to mod the SDK in the slightest. there are quite a few things that we would really like done in the SDK. i cant remember them all off the top of my head though.

you seriously made my day :)
Haha, I'm glad you're pleased :)

Are you using FF051 as a base? With modular loading and all? I'm not accustomed to modding this DLL, though, but I can learn. TBH, it would certainly be easier for me to just use LENA's DLL as there's already some interesting things in it you could use... but if you want all FF's things, then, well, I don't have the choice ;)

Please try to make me a list :)
 
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