Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Deal
also, youll notice the design threads have been stickeyed
Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion
- Thread starter Psychic_Llamas
- Start date
Deal
also, youll notice the design threads have been stickeyed
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I did notice. Sweet.also, youll notice the design threads have been stickeyed
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i added chaos dwarf design. quite a few changes ahri.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
HEY! Ahri got a unit named after him.Psychic_Llamas said:
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
sure did
i plan on getting all team members something named after them.feel free to suggest ideas for your own representatives
Added lizardmen design.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Added amazonian design
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
That's wicked awesome, man! And I don't say wicked awesome unless I really think it is. Hmm...I'll have to think of something for mine.sure did
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Ahriman's reference is a real coinidence because there actually is a deamon called Ahriman in one of the middle eastern religions, i think it was zoroastrianism. which is convenient because thats what the chaos dwarves are named after.
apparently thats where Ahri got his name from
apparently thats where Ahri got his name from
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
addaed heroes for the chaos dwarves and found a better picture for Astragroth (the button dosnt do much justice)
sure did
feel free to suggest ideas for your own representatives
Added lizardmen design.
feel free to suggest ideas for deadliver yo.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Chaos dwarves:
What (will be) the base tile yield for lava? Volcano?
Do we have graphics for these? I don't remember a lava terrain type being in the mod.
So... sounds like we should build chaos dwarves on top of Illians?
3 strength hunters would be *useless*. You can't take -1 strength off low-strength units, that is a huge penalty.
I'd advise against adding animosity to the chaos dwarves too; we didn't add it to recon units for other factions, and even though the chaos dwarves are using some greenskins, they shouldn't feel like greenskins; animosity just doesn't feel like a chaos dwarven mechanic. And you could justify this by assuming that there is basically a chaos dwarven slavemaster with whips in each goblin unit that stops them from getting animosity.
Hobgoblins also I thought were supposed to be far more organized than normal goblins, so the hobgoblins wouldn't be suffering from animosity in the same way as orcs would.
Similarly I'd take discipline off the various other units.
Chaos dwarves should feel like *dwarves* with weaker underling units.
With all this armylist, they'd feel like you're playing orcs.
If you really feel you must keep animosity, ok, but you need to take the -1 strength off.
Either take a look at the way the goblin units are done (earlier tech access, attack OR defense reductions, lower hammer cost, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301877&page=2), or just change both and have the Goblin racial promotion give a flat 10% strength penalty.
If you want to give them a bonus representing their shotgun effect, give them a +15% bonus vs melee.
Our proposal for doomdivers (from their thread, which I'm happy to change) was basically a siege unit with superior unit bombardment but lower combat strength; you're shooting goblins (or rockets here) at the enemy.
Goblin Doom Divers Strength 3. Can barrage adjacent units with a 30% max damage cap.
But I have no attachment this design, I'm happy for it to be changed.
That seems too much. Its fine to let them *learn* these magics through the techs, but they don't need to start with them for free.
No other mage type gets 2 free promotions per level.
High/Dark/Wood get 1 each and decent flexibility, and they are supposed to be superior mages.
Elementalists and College wizards get 1 promotion per level and no flexibility.
Chaos mages get flexiblity but no free promotions.
The chaos dwarf sorcerors get good flexibility (2 lores and 3 chaos magics), so they shouldn't be getting a ton of bonus promotions as well.
With this design, they would get the magics without even having to research the Lore of Metal/Lore of Fire techs!
Just make them a standard chaos sorceror, and leave winds of magic, lore of metal and lore of fire unblocked for the chaos dwarves civ.
I'd remove the hills strength or the fortification bonus. Regular dwarves need to be better than chaos dwarves at one of these.
Still missing: we don't have anything at priesthood or fanaticism.
This is a bit of a problem for chaos tribes too; none of their religious units use the religious line.
Maybe tie fanatacism in as an extra requirement for some units, like chaos knights or something?
Interesting. How about adding a base +1 influence to the temple as well?
What (will be) the base tile yield for lava? Volcano?
Do we have graphics for these? I don't remember a lava terrain type being in the mod.
So... sounds like we should build chaos dwarves on top of Illians?
Stray text? Or intended?
3 strength hunters would be *useless*. You can't take -1 strength off low-strength units, that is a huge penalty.
I'd advise against adding animosity to the chaos dwarves too; we didn't add it to recon units for other factions, and even though the chaos dwarves are using some greenskins, they shouldn't feel like greenskins; animosity just doesn't feel like a chaos dwarven mechanic. And you could justify this by assuming that there is basically a chaos dwarven slavemaster with whips in each goblin unit that stops them from getting animosity.
Hobgoblins also I thought were supposed to be far more organized than normal goblins, so the hobgoblins wouldn't be suffering from animosity in the same way as orcs would.
Again; -1 strength is useless, and I dont' think animosity belongs here.
Similarly I'd take discipline off the various other units.
Chaos dwarves should feel like *dwarves* with weaker underling units.
With all this armylist, they'd feel like you're playing orcs.
If you really feel you must keep animosity, ok, but you need to take the -1 strength off.
Either take a look at the way the goblin units are done (earlier tech access, attack OR defense reductions, lower hammer cost, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301877&page=2), or just change both and have the Goblin racial promotion give a flat 10% strength penalty.
I don't think ignoring terrain modifiers really makes sense here. If nothing else a blunderbuss is a huge scatter shot with short range, and so the height advantages of hills or the cover advantages of forests would be even larger against these weapons.
If you want to give them a bonus representing their shotgun effect, give them a +15% bonus vs melee.
Our proposal for doomdivers (from their thread, which I'm happy to change) was basically a siege unit with superior unit bombardment but lower combat strength; you're shooting goblins (or rockets here) at the enemy.
Goblin Doom Divers Strength 3. Can barrage adjacent units with a 30% max damage cap.
But I have no attachment this design, I'm happy for it to be changed.
On reflection, this should probably be an inferior knight, with -1 strength. Cavalry are not exactly a chaos dwarven flavor.
2 free promotions for each level???
That seems too much. Its fine to let them *learn* these magics through the techs, but they don't need to start with them for free.
No other mage type gets 2 free promotions per level.
High/Dark/Wood get 1 each and decent flexibility, and they are supposed to be superior mages.
Elementalists and College wizards get 1 promotion per level and no flexibility.
Chaos mages get flexiblity but no free promotions.
The chaos dwarf sorcerors get good flexibility (2 lores and 3 chaos magics), so they shouldn't be getting a ton of bonus promotions as well.
With this design, they would get the magics without even having to research the Lore of Metal/Lore of Fire techs!
Just make them a standard chaos sorceror, and leave winds of magic, lore of metal and lore of fire unblocked for the chaos dwarves civ.
I'd remove the hills strength or the fortification bonus. Regular dwarves need to be better than chaos dwarves at one of these.
Chariot, warchariot, dragon (gets Lammasu)
Still missing: we don't have anything at priesthood or fanaticism.
This is a bit of a problem for chaos tribes too; none of their religious units use the religious line.
Maybe tie fanatacism in as an extra requirement for some units, like chaos knights or something?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Oh, and Ahriman is the Zorastrian Prince of Darkness.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Interesting. How about adding a base +1 influence to the temple as well?
What (will be) the base tile yield for lava? Volcano?
Do we have graphics for these? I don't remember a lava terrain type being in the mod.
So... sounds like we should build chaos dwarves on top of Illians?
Lava is the same as Desert yields iirc, and volcanoes have no yields.
yeh we have graphics for both of these
and using Illians as a base for CD is a good idea i hadns considered
Very good points. ill remove that from Hobgobs. but keep the no war wearyness from death?
deal
Death rocket (replaces catapult) Strength 3. Can barrage units with a 30% max damage cap within 2 squares.
is that ok? and why such low strength?
ok. whats your opinion on a Lore of Hashut instead of: either the Bright and gold lores, or the chaos magic?
how about we just make priesthood and/ or fanaticism a requirement for some of the chaos deamons?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Amazons:
Is the intention for them to get a net 0 health gain from jungle (which would be nice, and distinguish them from WE) or a net +0.5? In which case you might need a 1.0 bonus to cancel out the -0.5 base penalty.
Also, they will need to have build-improvements in jungle enabled somewhere.
I think the 5% chance on the Amazonian racial promotion is probably enough.
And do they really eat them?? That sounds like an Ogre thing, I don't think it belongs here.
Large bonus food storage *on top of* a granary can also be problematic.
Slightly boring, but whatever. I don't really know anything about their fluff.
Ok, it looks like they are cannibals.
However:
b) It really represents a supernatural process; its on crypt ghouls and the like. It doesn't really make sense for humans eating other humans to get big instant healing, it doesn't really help them anymore than eating
c) Rapid healing after combat really doesn't make sense as a primary mechanic for an entire civ.
We need to decide how obsidian weapons would work.
What bonus does it give?
What resource does it require?
How does it interact with wartats?
Its hard for me to do balancing without this.
b) City bombardment??!?
Another thought: no siege units. Well and good, but they need some other way of taking cities. Maybe some of their city assault troops could ignore city walls?
Is the intention for them to get a net 0 health gain from jungle (which would be nice, and distinguish them from WE) or a net +0.5? In which case you might need a 1.0 bonus to cancel out the -0.5 base penalty.
Also, they will need to have build-improvements in jungle enabled somewhere.
I think the 5% chance on the Amazonian racial promotion is probably enough.
And do they really eat them?? That sounds like an Ogre thing, I don't think it belongs here.
Large bonus food storage *on top of* a granary can also be problematic.
Assuming that this is their temple (and requires Old Ones religion).
Slightly boring, but whatever. I don't really know anything about their fluff.
Ok, it looks like they are cannibals.
However:
a) there is already a cannibalize promotion, why create a new one?
b) It really represents a supernatural process; its on crypt ghouls and the like. It doesn't really make sense for humans eating other humans to get big instant healing, it doesn't really help them anymore than eating
c) Rapid healing after combat really doesn't make sense as a primary mechanic for an entire civ.
We need to decide how obsidian weapons would work.
What bonus does it give?
What resource does it require?
How does it interact with wartats?
Its hard for me to do balancing without this.
I didn't know they'd be getting another magic type. Can we still use the existing Magic of the Old Ones tech for this?
a) Is this spelling of Basilisk canon?
b) City bombardment??!?
Another thought: no siege units. Well and good, but they need some other way of taking cities. Maybe some of their city assault troops could ignore city walls?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Can you build improvements on lava? you can't on volcanoes.
So how about they get +2 hammers from lava and +3 from volancoes?
The idea (not a terribly good one) was to make them *only* a bombardment unit; and that hopefully by reducing their strength the AI would use them for bombardment more. Don't know if thats true though.
If its going to be 2 range bombardment, then how about removing the collateral, so they're shooting a single unit. And do the same with Doom Divers.
2 range bombardment is a huge advantage, particularly for a human player. For eg, it means a human player can kite* incoming infantry by using roads. Enemy stack enters your territory and is adjacent to your siege unit. Move away 1 tile (on road) then turn and bomb them. Next turn they move towards you, you move 1 more tile again and them bomb them again.
*RTS terminology in case you're unfamiliar.
Another alternative would be to have these guys have a spell that created a rocket, like a fireball spell, instead of a bombardment attack.
I don't quite understand this. You mean create an entirely new magic type with new promotions?
I'd prefer not to; it would require another tech (and we have our tech tree) and we already want them using the existing chaos techs for the demons.
Frankly, rather I'd just have them as normal chaos mages but leave the Metal/Fire techs unblocked. Though we will have to add "Or Chaos Dwarf promotion" to the requirements for Gold magic 1 and Bright Magic 1, but that is easily done.
Oh, and to help encourage getting them, maybe tie some of the units like the Infernal or Kollossus into Lore of Fire/Lore of Metal.
The other alternative is to give them both normal sorcerors, and Adept units that don't have channeling but get Gold/Bright magic promotions.
Seems reasonable. Require priesthood for the normal level demons, require fanaticism for the demon prince, and maybe the exalted chaos sorceror?
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
im not overly sure on this. what do you think would be better balance wise?
think of the food bonus not so much as eating them (though in sure the Pigmeys would have a nibble) but more the fact they use the male slaves as sex slaves to reproduce...
this was meant to be on top of the temple of the Old Ones. possibly even requring the TotOO. any other suggestions to make it more interesting?
a) i meant the cannibalize promotion, just got the name wrong. i dont mean to make a new promotion.
b) does it matter?
c) cannibaliza is exclusively for the Pygmeys, not the Amazonian Women.
i mention this in the Lizardmen design. Requires Stone, +15% strength stacks with war tats.
theyre too primitive to use old one magic like the lizardmen, and the Oldworld is too distant to use the same winds IMHO.
nah its just my epic fail at spelling. how is it meant to be spelt?
they dont get siege so need some minor form of city bombardment. i figured i gigantic snake bashing itslef agaisnt a wall would have the same effect as throwing rocks at it?
i like this. perhaps have a unique friendly Cat-like beast man... lets call it a Prowler, that can act as an assassin.
lava damages units on the tile, so unless we make CD workers immune to fire they wouldnt be able to. we could have a Foundary improvement which gives gold and Hammers from lava? unique to CD? otherwise that works.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
btw Ahri, ot sure if you have looked at the lizardmen or not. what is your oppinion on them?
@ everyone else. whats your oppinions on Amazonians and chaos dwarves? there isnt much info to go on for either of those so more ideas are welcome!
@ everyone else. whats your oppinions on Amazonians and chaos dwarves? there isnt much info to go on for either of those so more ideas are welcome!
Ahriman
Tyrant
I think just having them get no unhealth from jungle would:
a) be an interesting contrast with WE and forests
b) represent the fact that jungles are still a nasty place to live.
Part of the problem I see is that while jungles are still a nasty place to live for human amazons, they're probably a pretty nice place to live for lizards. But we probably don't want to try to have/balance two different traits.
How about we leave it +0.5 for a net health of zero for now.
Having horrible thoughts about captured orc, goblin and skaven units.....
Oh, so you see it as basically a coven replacement.
How about you drop the slave camp building, make the Altar a replacement for the Coven (without needing the temple), have it give +2 xp for arcane units (or training for arcane units), and the slave sacrifice effect?
It feels a bit weird, but I'm not strongly opposed. Lets try it for now.
Ahh, I didn't notice a lizard design had been added.
Ok. My problem with wartat and stone reliance is the old one: dyes and stone are fairly rare resource, and aren't as reliable as copper or iron.
How about you create a national wonder for the lizards and amazons (with magic of the old ones tech?) that provides 1 copy of dyes and stone resources?
I'm not saying they have to use the same promotions and the same spells, but we could still have it use the same tech.
Also, you could have their tech just borrow many of the effects from jade, beast and athel loren, with new names, so you don't have to code new spells.
And lizards could either use *both* types, or just their own type. Its easy enough to require the amazon promotion for researching amazon magic 1, and have amazon magic 1, 2, 3 provided by the old ones tech (with channeling requirements as appropriate).
Uhh.... Basilisk
See, even the spell-checker recognizes it.Assassins (ie marksmen) and ignores city walls are antithetical. Assassins should be *terrible* city assault troops, they should be for picking out the weak in the field, not assaulting defended fortresses. Catmen assassins seems feasible, but we still need a way for them to take cities.
Spells are one option, but the AI can't be relied on to do that.
How about just a battering ram unit, that doesn't get any bombardment and has low strength, but can still knock down city walls? Even amazons could build a ram.
Is the damage not cancelled by fire resistance? I remember in FFH for example, the fire resistance on orcs let them enter flames tiles unmolested.
You could just let them build workshops on lava, or leave them with no improvements. I don't mind.
I hadn't noticed, I will take a look at some point.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Lizardmen
Partly this is harder for me to do, like the amazons, since I really know nothing about their fluff or the strengths/weaknesses of their army.
I dislike requiring a Mark of the Old Ones in the BFC. This will be messed up for random maps.
Much better to make Mark of the Old ones a resource from the Marks and some of the Unique features (see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335017 ), and have the building give some bonus only with the Mark resource.
+100% GPP is also a *huge* bonus.
This thing is too powerful, you need to either tone it down (if its a cathedral replacement) or make it a national wonder.
How about taking down its beast bonus to 25%, and making it invisible only in jungle and swamps.
Add this to the Amazon one too.
I'd drop the unit or redesign it.
And is it a Skink? Or some kind of giant salamander?
This sounds weird to me. And I'm assuming you don't want this as Steampower tech
Slann Mage-Priest: MIA?
You also don't have any magic units or priests. If you really want these to be coming off great priests, then I think you need to also change the buildings that Lizardmen have; give them replacements for markets, grocers, library, etc. etc. that all give great priest slots rather than sages and traders and priests and engineers.
And maybe block them from civics that give nobles/traders/engineers etc.
Alternatively; you could replace great merchant, great lord, great sage etc. for lizardmen with their caster version, so *any* great person they create is actually a spellcaster. You might have to have 5 identical casters (replacing the different great people), but so what?
It might also be better to have the normal ones be buildable (using the old ones tech and the fanaticism tech) and then some great ones from the great people mechanic.
Partly this is harder for me to do, like the amazons, since I really know nothing about their fluff or the strengths/weaknesses of their army.
I don't understand this, or how it would be coded.
I take it these are instead of military school/stables/training yard etc.
I dislike requiring a Mark of the Old Ones in the BFC. This will be messed up for random maps.
Much better to make Mark of the Old ones a resource from the Marks and some of the Unique features (see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335017 ), and have the building give some bonus only with the Mark resource.
+100% GPP is also a *huge* bonus.
This thing is too powerful, you need to either tone it down (if its a cathedral replacement) or make it a national wonder.
Drop these bonuses down to 10%, 15% tops.
Invisible is an incredibly powerful promotion.
How about taking down its beast bonus to 25%, and making it invisible only in jungle and swamps.
How about just "Skink warband" or "Skink braves".
I'd make them 3/2+1 poison. They still need to have some offensive potential.
What slot is this? ie what tech? I can't balance it without that.
How about 2 moves, double moves in jungle. And requires horses.
3 move knights? Are lizards really about mobile cavalry?
How about using the standard design thing for this slot: higher cost, builds 50% faster with breeding grounds resource.
Add this to the Amazon one too.
Requires breeding grounds.
This just seems weird. A strength 9 unit that is bombarding? Salamanders that can knock down city walls? This doesn't make sense to me.
I'd drop the unit or redesign it.
And is it a Skink? Or some kind of giant salamander?
This sounds weird to me. And I'm assuming you don't want this as Steampower tech
Slann Mage-Priest: MIA?
You also don't have any magic units or priests. If you really want these to be coming off great priests, then I think you need to also change the buildings that Lizardmen have; give them replacements for markets, grocers, library, etc. etc. that all give great priest slots rather than sages and traders and priests and engineers.
And maybe block them from civics that give nobles/traders/engineers etc.
Alternatively; you could replace great merchant, great lord, great sage etc. for lizardmen with their caster version, so *any* great person they create is actually a spellcaster. You might have to have 5 identical casters (replacing the different great people), but so what?
It might also be better to have the normal ones be buildable (using the old ones tech and the fanaticism tech) and then some great ones from the great people mechanic.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
feed those ones to the pygmeys haha. keep the humies elves and dwarves
good idea. added to each
The Obsidian Pyramid: (Wonder) provides 3 stone to the civ, +25% city defence for all cities, +20% hammers. can turn 2 citizens into engineers.
Quetzhyl's Orchard (Wonder) Provides 3 Dyes to the civ, +1 Happy from Jungle, Can turn 2 citizens into Lords.
oh yeh thats fine
i dont care what techs they require Stegadon Catapult?
Workshops on Lava works for me.
