SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

My PC plan gets the required units by T181.

Your uploaded saved game has the last catapult still on the queue T181 to build next turn.

I can get the Axe out of BF instead of the Archer I get there, but this city needs an MP sooner or later, it is hurting for happiness.

Hence giving away the iron on T181 for some warriors, either before or after courthouses.

I will look more closely at the galley plan.

It's about to change to accommodate getting the 13th unit there, so don't look too closely yet!

Why does FH have to build a WB? We could really use another Galley, and FH can put the over flow from the last build onto a galley now and 2 whip it in a few turns. GH can whip a WB then a Trireme or in reversed order. We just have to decide which we want 1st.

FH can finish the WB T183 and 2-whip the galley to build T184 with judicious build order juggling with Pmine tile usage when CC doesn't want it. See PDF. So Stevenson will lose one turn, and if we wake Yeltsin up on T182, he can join the chopping expedition on T184. New Galley will end T184 in Stone Mountain in our plan, so there's overkill on galleys by then.

We want GH to whip a trireme T179 to keep BF Rep-happy. It keeps building the workboat afterwards - it'll want one soon enough.

Courthouses???
Is there a radius that we want to determine that gives payback value for the courthouses we intend to build. Or is the plan to just whip them everywhere because they are cheaper for us.

I'm going to suggest them everywhere, because the espionage will be useful for a GLH revolt or something later. But closer in they're a lower priority.
 
Your uploaded saved game has the last catapult still on the queue T181 to build next turn.
You are absolutely right...I thought we were always talking the turn it was finished as opposed to the turn it was usable.

It's about to change to accommodate getting the 13th unit there, so don't look too closely yet!
That's why I'm looking at it! :)

We want GH to whip a trireme T179 to keep BF Rep-happy. It keeps building the workboat afterwards - it'll want one soon enough.
So you want to whip off the gold mine onT179?

Which PDF??? The last one I have is herehttp://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=289275&d=1304658984
 
You are absolutely right...I thought we were always talking the turn it was finished as opposed to the turn it was usable.

Sorry. I try to be clear every time I mention a date, but I guess I messed up somewhere.

Yep. Better war outcomes seem more valuable to me. Whipping GH T179 is necessary to keep BF with the Representation-:) that turn, to get the 13th unit to the front in time. If you can find an alternative, that would be useful.

Ronnie1;10480342Which PDF??? The last one I have is here[URL="http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=289275&d=1304658984" said:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=289275&d=1304658984[/URL]

#1622

Now that I look at it, the PDF doesn't have the FH tweak. Just build the galley T181, finish the WB T182 with the Pmine, and whip the galley T183.
 
I'm not sure we can move the 13th unit far enough to DoW T184. I can get into position on T185 for sure. The extra unit doesn't allow for enough galley space between PC and the marble tile in time.
 
So bc and mabraham have put together this post below. It gets 4 swords (2 across river) 3 axe, 1 archer, and 5 catapults (3 of which can attack& have no river crossing) next to a 0% defense london ready to attack on T188. This plan really only deals with the war and its consequences - but these occasionally affect GH and FH, as well as BF and PC, obviously. The details of the plan are as follows:

Each screenshot is at the end of the listed turn. The text describes the galley movements using the reference points mabraham established in this image.

galley chaining sites.JPG

T178
T178 end.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
Ferry w/ cat moves to BF2
New Galley moves to Stone Mountain (SM)
Kon-Tiki at BF3 (can't move) but catapult from PC boards Kon-Tiki
Nautilus moves to PC1
Argo moves to PC2

triremes
Trireme should be 1E+2S of PC2 to fog bust.
Trireme near CC should start to move east.
other trireme can stay within PC borders

other critical build/tile changes
PC works coast rather than Pmine (Need faster growth right now, associated contortions next turn...)
BF switch copper to citizen to enable 2-whip next turn to build cat+axe over next two turns.
GH switch to trireme to prepare to whip trireme.

other suggested actions
Name Yeltsin.
Label the galley-chain positions on the real game to help following the movement instructions


T179
T179 end.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
Ferry moves to BF3 gives cat to Kon-Tiki
New Galley moves to BF1 (to wait for catapult and axe from BF)
Kon Tiki picks up cat from Ferry moves to BF4 with 2 catapults
Archer moves onto Nautilus, moves to PC2, gives archer to Argo
Argo get archer from Nautilus, moves to PC3

triremes
Trireme near CC should continue to move east.
others can hold positions

other critical tile/build changes
PC 2 pop whips 1st catapult, switches tiles after the whip to one Clams, Pmine, Iron (This is needed to finish the catapult in time) and the worker chops the forest
whip catapult in BF
whip trireme in GH (so that its population is less than BF and BF maintains the representation :) bonus)

other suggested actions
Magellan 3NW to see York-London lake - note all visible Vicky units
The 0XP axe should back-track to the gold to bust fog (still arrives with the stack in time for the DOW)
Two 0XP swords on western tip of Vicky's land to forest


T180
T180 end.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
Ferry moves to PC1 and picks up catapult from PC
New Galley waits at BF1 (for axe now)
Kon-Tiki moves to BF5 (with 2 catapults)
Nautilus moves to BF4
Argo drops off archer then moves to PC2

triremes
A trireme should still be E+2S of PC2.
Other trireme supports Argo at PC2
Trireme from CC area continues to move east
GH trireme moves to SW of CC

other critical tile/build changes
PC runs PMine, Iron, and citizen (to finish the last catapult this turn)

other suggestions
Magellan 3SE to see the eastern iron tile - note all visible Vicky units
SM builds wealth for a turn, switch to work coast, not Gmine.
Hoover should be roading the square SE of silk instead of being on the silk as shown in the screenshot.


T181
T181 end.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
New Galley moves to BF2 (with catapult and axe from BF)
Ferry gets a 2nd catapult from PC, moves to BF4 gives 2 cats Nautilus, then moves back to go inside of PC
Kon-Tiki moves to BF6 with 2 catapults
Nautilus gets 2 cats from Ferry moves to PC2 gives 2 cats to Argo, moves back 1 to 3E of PC (where it is safe from barbs because we saw the tiles this turn?)
Argo gets 2 catapults from Nautilus and moves to PC3

triremes
trireme stays with Argo to go to PC3
trireme that was 1E+2S of PC2 joins Kon-Tiki at BF6
Incoming trireme from CC area now in PC with Ferry

other critical builds/tile changes
FH switches to galley (if we want to get one whipped ASAP)
Start courthouse in PC.
Finish trireme in BF.
SM gets its fish back.

other suggestions
Magellan 3NW to see York-London lake - note all visible Vicky units
GH trireme to near CC.
We should give away our iron in preparation for some warrior building. Keep the iron for now


T182
T182 end.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
New Galley is basically free to go back and do other stuff now - go towards SM
and then next to mainland to get Yeltsin in 3 turns time, unless the new galley from FH will have done this already
Kon-Tiki to BF4 (has its units already)
New Galley to BF5 (two catapults walk onto PC and load into Ferry, and then into Nautilus)
Ferry to Nautilus
Nautilus (with two catapults) goes specifically SE, SE to see if there's barbs in the fog before the covering triremes move. Nautilus then continues NE. If it was clear, the triremes move forward as planned. Otherwise we have to judge whether to leave a trireme behind, risk barb combat with two cats aboard, or delay the DOW a turn - depends on what we know of Vicky's stuff.

triremes
Trireme to BF6
Trireme to PC5
Incoming trireme to 3E of PC

other critical tile/build changes
FH switches back to WB as it acquires the Pmine from CC

other suggestions
Magellan 3SE to see the eastern iron tile - note all visible Vicky units
Probably stop Yeltsin after workshop this turn, in preparation for the forest chopping missions.
Probably the injured sword needs to apply both its promos to heal up in time.
Wake Hoover (if necessary).


T183
Note all the tiles that our axes can see - we want to know what stuff Vicky has!
T183 end.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
Nautilus unloads cats on the overland stack, which is now complete
Argo+units to BF7
K-T+units to rally point
Ferry goes back to pick up Hoover to bring to London
New Galley goes west to see if he can be useful

triremes
Trireme to rally point
Trireme to BF6
The incoming trireme is fog busting between Ferry and Nautilus (best is probably 1SW of the screen shot, to clear the way for Ferry next turn)

other critical tile/build changes
Start courthouse in BF.
FC works PForest to get some natural :hammers: in.

other suggestions
Magellan 3NW to see York-London lake - note all visible Vicky units before, during and after move
Note all units the pillaging axes can see before and after they move
Note the northern axe should not commit to the iron tile yet - keep the intelligence coming and rely on the DOW teleport
Yeltsin moves to Pmine tile.
FH workboat to SR (take the fastest route!)


T184 pre-DOW
Note all the tiles that our axes can see - we want to know what stuff Vicky has!
T184 DOW.JPG
Spoiler :

galleys
K-T and Argo await DOW
Ferry moves forward with worker to the indicated position
Nautilus sets up worker galley chain next turn (if Vicky doesn't have killer navy in Nottingham).

triremes
Trireme built in GH now near CC accompanies WB from FH to keep it safe near MC.
Two triremes await DOW
Other trireme covers Nautilus

other critical tile/build changes
Switch SR to Taoist Monastery.

other suggestions
Magellan notes all units, moves N, N, NE noting units on the way. This should yield a useful DOW teleport to the NW. If we lose him, that's life, but this way we can get the intelligence and have a decent chance of saving him.
Iron-kiling axes are in position - but update notes of all units they can see
Yeltsin and Stevenson board the recently-built galley from FH to head for MC forests.
We are going to get copper back from Vicky when we declare war - trade this away immediately


Note that if you download all the images, you can see a pseudo-movie in most image browsing software (e.g. Windows Picture and Fax software with left and right arrows).

Updated spreadsheet and PDF attached edit: updates for SR.
 

Attachments

  • T178 13-unit plan corrected and SR improved.pdf
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I'm not sure we can move the 13th unit far enough to DoW T184. I can get into position on T185 for sure. The extra unit doesn't allow for enough galley space between PC and the marble tile in time.

It is tough getting it out of BF, I thought for ages about how to do it, and only succeeded because I was sure you'd already done it... but it turns out you hadn't. However, the impetus for progress was valuable! :)
 
So mabraham and I had different ideas about how to move the 2nd catapult out of PC on T181. (finishing in on T180)

This is better than what the master plan current shows
T178 PC does switch from Pmine to coast to grow to 5
T179 PC 2 pop whips 1st catapult, switches tiles after the whip to Clams, Pmine, Iron and the worker chops the forest
T180 PC works Iron, Pmine and a citizen (so no clams this turn)

I don't use both clams 1 turn and 1 clam 1 turn. the master plan as written goes off the both clams for 2 turns (and ends up at 2 pop instead of 3 pop)

There are a few suggestions in the master plan from my original plan since we co-wrote that post. So as written it right now it is inconsistent on T180 when it suggests a Pmine, Iron and citizen (since it would only have 2 pop with mabraham original idea)

Also on T180 a trireme is listed at SE+2S of PC2 but it should be 1E+2S of PC2
 
I'm also going to recommend against trading away our iron for warrior building for the following reasons.

If we trade away iron on T181 then we will get copper back on T184 from declaring with Vicky.
We can trade away the copper on T184 and continue building warriors, however that puts us in a position where we can not build swords,axes, and spears for a minimum of 7 turns. Since we would be unable to cancel the iron trade until T191.

So probably not a big problem, but there is at least a chance that vicky sends some units our way and PC is going to be left defenseless.

With scouting and a better grasp of the situation we probably can risk the metal trades, but I'm just saying there are situations where I think it would be unwise.

If we didn't trade away the metal we could build archers for MP instead. Not the end of the world in my opinion.
 
So mabraham and I had different ideas about how to move the 2nd catapult out of PC on T181. (finishing in on T180)

This is better than what the master plan current shows
T178 PC does switch from Pmine to coast to grow to 5
T179 PC 2 pop whips 1st catapult, switches tiles after the whip to Clams, Pmine, Iron and the worker chops the forest
T180 PC works Iron, Pmine and a citizen (so no clams this turn)

I don't use both clams 1 turn and 1 clam 1 turn. the master plan as written goes off the both clams for 2 turns (and ends up at 2 pop instead of 3 pop)

There are a few suggestions in the master plan from my original plan since we co-wrote that post. So as written it right now it is inconsistent on T180 when it suggests a Pmine, Iron and citizen (since it would only have 2 pop with mabraham original idea)

Also on T180 a trireme is listed at SE+2S of PC2 but it should be 1E+2S of PC2

Nice work on the galley moves....I had figured out the better option for PC last night, but was too tired to sit and figure the galley movement. I hope to have time tonight to play through the practice game fully and be ready to play the set tomorrow.
 
bc was right on all points, thanks. I've updated the text, PDF and spreadsheet of post #1665.

So mabraham and I had different ideas about how to move the 2nd catapult out of PC on T181. (finishing in on T180)

This is better than what the master plan current shows
T178 PC does switch from Pmine to coast to grow to 5
T179 PC 2 pop whips 1st catapult, switches tiles after the whip to Clams, Pmine, Iron and the worker chops the forest
T180 PC works Iron, Pmine and a citizen (so no clams this turn)

I don't use both clams 1 turn and 1 clam 1 turn. the master plan as written goes off the both clams for 2 turns (and ends up at 2 pop instead of 3 pop)

I saw you planned that, but didn't see how it could work. Now I see that the chop gets 24 hammers, which gives us enough room to switch off the Pmine one turn, to grow faster, to get another turn of clams. Have corrected.

There are a few suggestions in the master plan from my original plan since we co-wrote that post. So as written it right now it is inconsistent on T180 when it suggests a Pmine, Iron and citizen (since it would only have 2 pop with mabraham original idea)

Also on T180 a trireme is listed at SE+2S of PC2 but it should be 1E+2S of PC2

Have corrected.
 
I'm also going to recommend against trading away our iron for warrior building for the following reasons.

If we trade away iron on T181 then we will get copper back on T184 from declaring with Vicky.
We can trade away the copper on T184 and continue building warriors, however that puts us in a position where we can not build swords,axes, and spears for a minimum of 7 turns. Since we would be unable to cancel the iron trade until T191.

So probably not a big problem, but there is at least a chance that vicky sends some units our way and PC is going to be left defenseless.

With scouting and a better grasp of the situation we probably can risk the metal trades, but I'm just saying there are situations where I think it would be unwise.

If we didn't trade away the metal we could build archers for MP instead. Not the end of the world in my opinion.

OK, to avoid the "no metal at all" situation, we need to plan to give away the copper again immediately on T184. (BF is probably desperate enough to want to build an archer - but switching one of its fish back to SM will help.) On T194 we also give away iron, so that we'll be able to cancel the copper deal whenever we find a desperate need for some axemen. Or, during the war when we judge we won't need iron, we might give it away earlier than T194.
 
We have some duplicated effort in the 13-unit plan about galleys for the east. In FH, we can get the workboat for SR to build on T183 and a galley for moving Stevenson and Yeltsin to the MC Moai-forests to build T184. IIRC that galley is on time to pick up Stevenson finishing his workshop. Yeltsin isn't done yet, but if we wake it up on the end of T182, it can go on that FH galley too.

On the other hand, New Galley is arriving in SM on T184. This creates three options:

A) New Galley sits around doing nothing (or heads back west) while the galley built in FH shuffles both Stevenson and Yeltsin around. Later, NG will be useful for galley-chaining workers over to BF.

B) The galley built in FH does Stevenson, while New Galley moves to 1N of CC to pick up Yeltsin when he is done. This means we never have to bring workers back to the mainland again - but since we're not building the Globe Theatre in CC any more, that workshop might not ever be used anyway. NG then takes Yeltsin to chop near MC (if time looks pressing) or up to FH for more furs

C) As for B, but NG lurks 1S of FH to wait for Yeltsin to walk overland before taking him to improve land near BF. Yeltsin could either finish the mainland workshop or not, according to taste.
 
B) The galley built in FH does Stevenson, while New Galley moves to 1N of CC to pick up Yeltsin when he is done. This means we never have to bring workers back to the mainland again - but since we're not building the Globe Theatre in CC any more, that workshop might not ever be used anyway. NG then takes Yeltsin to chop near MC (if time looks pressing) or up to FH for more furs
I prefer option B for New Galley
 
I didn't have time to play test last night at all. Hopefully today.
 
I was looking at the pdf mabraham posted and I would like to discuss changing the plan for spicy rice.

I think the most important thing spicy rice can produce for us is missionaries.

So this plan gets 2 missionaries out before the planned switch to caste system possibly 3.

T178 Rice, Grass (switch to Taoist Monastery)
T179 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T180 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T181 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T182 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T183 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T184 Rice, Fish Gmine (Taoist Monastery)
T185 Rice, Fish Gmine (Taoist Monastery) Strauss to spice forest, Eiffel to north forest
T186 Rice, Fish (edit: no nets) (Taoist Monastery) Strauss chop started, Eiffel road to delay chop 1 turn
T187 Rice, Fish (edit: with nets), GMine (Taoist Monastery) Strauss chop cont, Eiffel starts chop
T188 Rice, Fish, GMine (Taoist Monastery)
T189 Rice, Fish, GMine (Taoist Monastery)
T190 Rice, Fish, GMine (Taoist Monastery) strauss finishes chop
T191 Rice, Fish 1 pop Taoist Monastery, eiffel finishes chop
T192 Rice, Fish Missionary (finishes this turn)
T193 Rice, Fish, GMine Missionary started
T194 Rice, Fish 1 pop whip 2nd Missionary
T195 1 pop whip lighthouse? (or even whip a 3rd missionary? on T196

The 2nd missionary can either be sent to London which will need happiness soon and can run a significant number of specialists, or sent to Golden Hills who can run a lot of specialists, or Fish Hills which will have 4 passive gp.

with pacifism doubling our :gp: in London or Golden Hills or even Fish Hills will likely shave significant time off another great person. That missionary is probably at least worth 12 :gp: per turn in London or Golden Hills very soon. That is roughly 36 :science: per turn. Worth more than a accelerating a lighthouse in Spicy Rice I think. We can still build a lighthouse in spicy rice and spicy rice has quite a few land tiles that aren't bad (GMine, Spice Plantation, 2 Grassland workshops, and the non-lighthouse fish isn't bad, and once we have caste it can run specialists run out of good non-water tiles)
 
I was looking at the pdf mabraham posted and I would like to discuss changing the plan for spicy rice.

I think the most important thing spicy rice can produce for us is missionaries.

So this plan gets 2 missionaries out before the planned switch to caste system possibly 3.

T178 Rice, Grass (switch to Taoist Monastery)
T179 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T180 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T181 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T182 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T183 Rice, Grass (Taoist Monastery)
T184 Rice, Fish Gmine (Taoist Monastery)
T185 Rice, Fish Gmine (Taoist Monastery) Strauss to spice forest, Eiffel to north forest
T186 Rice, Fish (edit: no nets) (Taoist Monastery) Strauss chop started, Eiffel road to delay chop 1 turn
T187 Rice, Fish (edit: with nets), GMine (Taoist Monastery) Strauss chop cont, Eiffel starts chop
T188 Rice, Fish, GMine (Taoist Monastery)
T189 Rice, Fish, GMine (Taoist Monastery)
T190 Rice, Fish, GMine (Taoist Monastery) strauss finishes chop
T191 Rice, Fish 1 pop Taoist Monastery, eiffel finishes chop
T192 Rice, Fish Missionary (finishes this turn)
T193 Rice, Fish, GMine Missionary started
T194 Rice, Fish 1 pop whip 2nd Missionary
T195 1 pop whip lighthouse? (or even whip a 3rd missionary? on T196

The 2nd missionary can either be sent to London which will need happiness soon and can run a significant number of specialists, or sent to Golden Hills who can run a lot of specialists, or Fish Hills which will have 4 passive gp.

with pacifism doubling our :gp: in London or Golden Hills or even Fish Hills will likely shave significant time off another great person. That missionary is probably at least worth 12 :gp: per turn in London or Golden Hills very soon. That is roughly 36 :science: per turn. Worth more than a accelerating a lighthouse in Spicy Rice I think. We can still build a lighthouse in spicy rice and spicy rice has quite a few land tiles that aren't bad (GMine, Spice Plantation, 2 Grassland workshops, and the non-lighthouse fish isn't bad, and once we have caste it can run specialists run out of good non-water tiles)

Looks good. From memory, we haven't finished the granary yet, but I'm keen for two missionaries ahead of that. The second missionary generating another GP down the line might make it more reasonable to use a GP for a Golden Age for the three turns of revolt we are planning. We settled our first GProphet in CC, IIRC the second GPerson is due about T189 (academy) and the third about T198.
 
So mabraham and I were discussing the tech options on IM.

After Code of Laws, we are thinking we should go with 0% on philosophy instead of 0% on compass until we get the great person on T189. We want to make sure we have philosophy by about T195 for the planned switch to caste system and pacifism and self teching philosophy works regardless of the great person we get on T189.

If it is great scientist we are thinking an academy is going to be more flexible and of approximately the same benefit to us over the course of our tech plan to get steel and astronomy out to about ~T230. CC will be able to grow to 11 pop quite fast (by approx T197) if we get some happiness resources which seems quite likely (furs, spice, silver?, others from trades?)
At 11 pop CC will be able to run 7 scientists and gets 2 free from GLib and has a Great Prophet so its minimum :science: is 57 and its maximum with commerce and 100% science slider is about 74. So an academy is worth about 32 :science: per turn. We will have this benefit for approximately 40 turns so the academy will produce ~1280 raw :science: for us. This is roughly what we would get from bulbing philosophy since the listed cost is 1872 :science: but we get a 20% prereq bonus to the :science: we put into it plus I believe 20% for each AI who knows it (at least 1). So its true cost is 1872/1.4 or 1337 raw :science: or less.
The academy will keep helping us past the point were we have steel and astronomy, so its benefit could easily be more than the 1280 raw :science: we have estimated.

If we get a Great Engineer we are thinking we would bulb machinery, and thus we would need to go 100% science and get philosophy as quickly as possible.

If we get a Great Artist we are thinking we would use it for a Golden Age (timed so we can switch to caste system, pacifism, and a religion) and thus would need to research Philosophy at 100%.

If we get a Great Merchant I'm assuming we go for a Trade mission with Willem in his temple of Artemis city. And would research Philosophy at 100%.

Also it is conceivable that we could trade for compass while we are teching philosophy at 0%. At least it is much more likely we could trade for compass than philosophy (since AI tend to hold onto philosophy even after it isn't a monopoly tech for the wonder, Angkor Wat, it unlocks).
 
Play through went smoothly, very tight galley movement.

Questions
1) Promotions
A) Cat(s)
B) Sword(s)
2) Hastings
A) If it only has 1 defender on T185, do I raze it right now? I would say yes. If it has 2 defenders?

New PDF noted

I am ready to play unless something has been added.
 
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