bcool
Deity
bbp I don't understand your table. What does Total represent it seems bigger than subtotal plus plastics?
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Fixed. It's a revision of a table I did before Ind-Comb (the "Total" included those).
shyuhe
Deity
Just a quick question, GPP cost 200 per person now right?
200, yes, until 3000 - then 300.
Planned order: Pigs GS 2400 (T+1) > London GP 2600 (T+7) > Fish GM 2800 (T+10) > Bahamas Spy/GE 3000 (T+12) > GP Farm GA 3300 (T+15). Pigs should back up GP Farm with another Artist, after it pops a GS.
Edit: Beijing, Kamchatka, Rheims and Bermuda are all potential backups at 3300, in case we get something unintended.
Planned order: Pigs GS 2400 (T+1) > London GP 2600 (T+7) > Fish GM 2800 (T+10) > Bahamas Spy/GE 3000 (T+12) > GP Farm GA 3300 (T+15). Pigs should back up GP Farm with another Artist, after it pops a GS.
Edit: Beijing, Kamchatka, Rheims and Bermuda are all potential backups at 3300, in case we get something unintended.
shyuhe
Deity
Thanks bbp. I'm seeing what happens if we trigger the 4th GA now, and try to continue it straight into a fifth one. GP Farm can be moved up some if we hire more artists -- it'll also make the GA generation % upwards of 96% (good enough for me). I'll post my numbers after I try fiddling with this some more.
Mitchum
Deity
I forgot to say, good work bbp!! 
That was a complicated turnset. We're getting short on time, so we need to move quickly. We've got a little over 2 weeks to go.
I've looked at the save and here are a few comments for shyuhe to think about when creating his PPP.
Other than the cities generating the 5 great person GA (and a few mongel backup cities IIRC), every city should be running all scientists or all merchants. Running engineers really only makes sense if there is a critical build that can be sped up by hiring them. I'm not sure if this is the best method, but I typically run merchants in every city except those that have an academy or Oxford. I then use the extra gold from the merchants to raise the slider. In my games, it's typical for me to run 100% science for the last 50+ turns using this method.
In this game, I didn't change any builds but just changed scientists and engineers to merchants in non-gp-producing cities and the science rate went from 3385
and +190
at 50% to 3476 and +110 at 80%. These are very close to the same. I guess each city could be looked at individually and hire scientists if there are more science multiplying buildings and merchants if they are the same (i.e. no muliplying buildings, one of each, etc.) or there are more wealth multiplying buildings. This can be tweaked to come up with the most efficient method.
Stalin, Chuchill and Gandhi are all WHEOOHRN. Churchill could be a pain if he attacks us.
I'd like to get workers to each of the islands to start scrubbing. I think things like chopping forests on bcool's island is a low priority. I'd rather send those three lumberjacks to an island each.
Why is the gold near Hangzhou under American control when it is 66% Russian and only 9% American? Is it because Chengdu is in revolt?
There is a fish resource north of Shanghai that could use nets if we get a chance.
Don't forget to power (coal or hydro) all of the factories not on the mainland. Ideally we have powered factories (and Observatories and Mining Inc.) in most cities on the turn we learn superconductors and we can crank out Research Institutes in 2 turns or less.
Should we settle the iron north of Siberia?
Is the current thinking on the tech path Plastics -> Radio -> Computers -> Supercoductors? Based on bbp's table above, I'd say yes, but I'm just making sure.
Are we planning to build Rock N Roll and/or Eiffel Tower?
I'll comment on city plans once you've put together your PPP.
That was a complicated turnset. We're getting short on time, so we need to move quickly. We've got a little over 2 weeks to go.I've looked at the save and here are a few comments for shyuhe to think about when creating his PPP.
Other than the cities generating the 5 great person GA (and a few mongel backup cities IIRC), every city should be running all scientists or all merchants. Running engineers really only makes sense if there is a critical build that can be sped up by hiring them. I'm not sure if this is the best method, but I typically run merchants in every city except those that have an academy or Oxford. I then use the extra gold from the merchants to raise the slider. In my games, it's typical for me to run 100% science for the last 50+ turns using this method.
In this game, I didn't change any builds but just changed scientists and engineers to merchants in non-gp-producing cities and the science rate went from 3385
and +190 at 50% to 3476 and +110 at 80%. These are very close to the same. I guess each city could be looked at individually and hire scientists if there are more science multiplying buildings and merchants if they are the same (i.e. no muliplying buildings, one of each, etc.) or there are more wealth multiplying buildings. This can be tweaked to come up with the most efficient method.Stalin, Chuchill and Gandhi are all WHEOOHRN. Churchill could be a pain if he attacks us.
I'd like to get workers to each of the islands to start scrubbing. I think things like chopping forests on bcool's island is a low priority. I'd rather send those three lumberjacks to an island each.
Why is the gold near Hangzhou under American control when it is 66% Russian and only 9% American? Is it because Chengdu is in revolt?
There is a fish resource north of Shanghai that could use nets if we get a chance.
Don't forget to power (coal or hydro) all of the factories not on the mainland. Ideally we have powered factories (and Observatories and Mining Inc.) in most cities on the turn we learn superconductors and we can crank out Research Institutes in 2 turns or less.
Should we settle the iron north of Siberia?
Is the current thinking on the tech path Plastics -> Radio -> Computers -> Supercoductors? Based on bbp's table above, I'd say yes, but I'm just making sure.
Are we planning to build Rock N Roll and/or Eiffel Tower?
I'll comment on city plans once you've put together your PPP.
Agree, except we also have GP backups other than the 5. I started running some Eng to complete critical builds, but then got into the practice without thinking. Should fire all, most likely.
Those numbers are about what I expected. Our slider is currently only slightly above 1:1 gold-beaker ratio, which made me assume that we're better off running Sci in a city with, for instance, Lib only. Not sure that's correct. It would also be quite painful to switch cities on a turn-by-turn basis... Maybe you could analyze it more?In this game, I didn't change any builds but just changed scientists and engineers to merchants in non-gp-producing cities and the science rate went from 3385
We have more than 5x his power. Can he even DOW?
Yes, I started scrubbing it earlier. That revolt is bloody annoying - it just restarted the same turn it ended.
Agree.
Yes.
shyuhe
Deity
If the stupid morons started planning while we had about equal power, then no our current power will NOT stop them from attacking. So I've done some math and we can crank out the following:
T+1, Pigs 97%GS
T+7, London 64%GP, 14%GE, 12%GSpy (or something like that), 5%GA/GM
T+8, Fish >94% GM
T+12, Bahamas 62%GSpy, 14%GP, 13%GE, 11%GA (ugh)
T+13, Rheims -- no idea what the mongrel %'s are but some combination of GM, GE (small), Gspy (very small)
T+15, GP Farm -- >95% GA
Now as back-up, we can get to fusion in 20 turns assuming our current beaker rate (very conservative estimate). So that would give us a pretty reliable GS, GM, GA, two shots at a GSpy/GP, plus the fusion engineer, and we may even be able to trigger the fifth GA at T+15 if we do well with London, Bahamas, and Rheims.
edit: We should be able to conquer Stalin using just three cities: Bermuda (build marines), Jamaica (build galleons), and Yaroslav (build frigates to take down defenses). Or does he actually have a stack on his tiny island?
T+1, Pigs 97%GS
T+7, London 64%GP, 14%GE, 12%GSpy (or something like that), 5%GA/GM
T+8, Fish >94% GM
T+12, Bahamas 62%GSpy, 14%GP, 13%GE, 11%GA (ugh)
T+13, Rheims -- no idea what the mongrel %'s are but some combination of GM, GE (small), Gspy (very small)
T+15, GP Farm -- >95% GA
Now as back-up, we can get to fusion in 20 turns assuming our current beaker rate (very conservative estimate). So that would give us a pretty reliable GS, GM, GA, two shots at a GSpy/GP, plus the fusion engineer, and we may even be able to trigger the fifth GA at T+15 if we do well with London, Bahamas, and Rheims.
edit: We should be able to conquer Stalin using just three cities: Bermuda (build marines), Jamaica (build galleons), and Yaroslav (build frigates to take down defenses). Or does he actually have a stack on his tiny island?
bcool
Deity
Moscow has the HE wouldn't it be more efficient to build marines there (plus it has 4 settled GG)? I know it is a bit more logistically challenging but every hammer counts.
bcool
Deity
shyuhe, are you using this spreadsheet?
It needs updating with the current numbers but it is nice to use to plan the GP
It needs updating with the current numbers but it is nice to use to plan the GP
Churchill was crushed before we made peace. I don't enough about this...
Why Rheims? We should slow it down. We're getting a GM from Fish.
Agree with bcool. Let's see if we can use Moscow. London also has 2GG and Paris 1, so maybe they can help with build-up for Roos.
He has something like Gren+LB in both St Pete and Novgorod. Stalingrad, on the other hand, has: 7 Gren, 3 LB and 7 tactical nukes.
This is as of 1-2t ago, when our Frigate passed through there.
bcool
Deity
Roosy has about 5 workers visible in the real game.
I gifted Roosy 4 workers in the Factory test game for a total of 5 visible workers, gave him ecology and looked at how fast it took him to clear the fallout. It took him 35+ turns. He had few roads in the test game but still pretty slow
Conclusion: If we don't gift Roosy workers (or he has several more workers hidden from us at the moment) he isn't going to clear the fallout fast enough for us. He will help but we will have to smash him before he clears much of it for us.
He might clear it a bit faster in the real game since his cities have more population too and might need those tiles to work?
I gifted Roosy 4 workers in the Factory test game for a total of 5 visible workers, gave him ecology and looked at how fast it took him to clear the fallout. It took him 35+ turns. He had few roads in the test game but still pretty slow
Conclusion: If we don't gift Roosy workers (or he has several more workers hidden from us at the moment) he isn't going to clear the fallout fast enough for us. He will help but we will have to smash him before he clears much of it for us.
He might clear it a bit faster in the real game since his cities have more population too and might need those tiles to work?
shyuhe
Deity
Roosevelt is more likely to build workers if we gift him through ecology -- we're going to attack with marines I think (no objection?) so artillery doesn't scare us as long as we're on the offense. I am slotting some worker builds into the mainland that we can gift to him to speed up the scrubbing.
So we'll need about 15 troops to take out Moscow... that's not hard at all. We can build the necessary marines and boats from those three cities, we can probably add a fourth for boat building if necessary.
I generated my own GPP table as I was too lazy to update bbp's numbers. Plus it gave me a good idea of what cities were doing what. We can delay Rheims until after GP Farm, but it'll come significantly afterwards (around T+20) if we do that. I was thinking that the extra shot at a GP would be nice since my plan is a bit aggressive on generating the fifth (sixth including Taj I guess) golden age. I'm ok with either route. We can push GP Farm's person up to T+13 quite easily.
I didn't notice the HE in Moscow so I'll shift that city to perma-marine duty.
So we'll need about 15 troops to take out Moscow... that's not hard at all. We can build the necessary marines and boats from those three cities, we can probably add a fourth for boat building if necessary.
I generated my own GPP table as I was too lazy to update bbp's numbers. Plus it gave me a good idea of what cities were doing what. We can delay Rheims until after GP Farm, but it'll come significantly afterwards (around T+20) if we do that. I was thinking that the extra shot at a GP would be nice since my plan is a bit aggressive on generating the fifth (sixth including Taj I guess) golden age. I'm ok with either route. We can push GP Farm's person up to T+13 quite easily.
I didn't notice the HE in Moscow so I'll shift that city to perma-marine duty.
shyuhe
Deity
Ok, this is long...
Moscow:
Build marines.
Fish:
Build wealth, all merchants till T+8. Then start building airships for Stalin and Roosevelt campaigns.
Siberia:
Build wealth for a turn. Then build hospital (overflow 151 hammers). Then build recycling center (overflow 202 hammers). Then start dam on T+3. Complete dam on T+8 (207 overflow). Set build to R&R. Complete R&R on T+10 (109 overflow). Set build to Eiffel Tower, complete on T+13. Set to wealth.
Pigs:
Mining dude for Rostov; wealth for one turn. At T+2, switch to workers and build 10 workers (1/turn) for Roosevelt clean-up.
GP Farm:
Finish observatory. At T+2, build wealth.
Cuba:
Finish harbor. T+1: galleon (3 turns); T+4: infantry(4 turns); T+8: worker (2 turns); T+10 worker (2 turns). Repeat cycle. These workers will clean up
Bahamas:
Build wealth.
Bermuda:
T+0: barracks (1 turn); then build marines for Stalin Roosevelt campaigns.
Rheims:
Harbor (1 turn); T+1: lighthouse (1 turn to ease food balancing). Then set to wealth.
Bananas (will later build a casing or thruster):
Observatory (2 turns); then marines (2 turns each) for Roosevelt campaign until research institute available.
Paris:
University(1); marine(2); worker(1); marine(2); worker(1); marine (2); marine (2); transport (2); battleship(3)
Kamchatka
Factory(3); workerx2 for northern tundra clean-up and terraform; wealth
Orleans
Barracks(1); workerx4 (for Roosevelt); wealth.
Chengdu
Revolt (3); factory(?); barracks(?); marines
Bcool island
Wealth
Shanghai
Barracks(1); wealth
Crabbes
Observatory(1); barracks(1); wealth
Beijing
Obsevatory(2); harbor to hire more specialists(1); marines
Guangzhou
Harbor to hire more specialists(1); barracks(1); marines
Nanjing
Library(1); theater(1); observatory(3); university(4); wealth
Hammer City
Wealth
Tours
Factory(3); barracks(1); theater(1); wealth
Haiti
Coal plant(1); harbor(1); wealth until transports available and
then build transports
Hastings
Sushi/mining execs
Nottingham
Forge(3); worker(2 turns each) on cycle
York
Library(1); factory(6); wealth
Oxford
Factory(7); harbor(1); wealth
Newcastle
Mining/sushi for Indian lands
Iron Spice
Galleon to scout remaining fog (1); library(1); wealth
Mitchums Oasis
Courthouse(2); wealth
London
Jail(1); wealth
Canterbury
Factory(3); wealth
Warwick
Courthouse(7); wealth
Steam
Factory(5); wealth
Rostov
Granary (2); forge(2); wealth
Yaroslav
Granary(2); forge(5); wealth
Yekaterinburg
Courthouse(2); granary(3); forge(5); wealth
Jamaica
Forge(5); drydock(3); transports(?)
Vijay
Mining exec(4); forge(4); mining exec (3)
Agra
Courthouse(6); workers
Delhi
Courthouse(19); workers
Patali
Workers
Bombay
Workers
Calcutta
Workers
Moscow:
Build marines.
Fish:
Build wealth, all merchants till T+8. Then start building airships for Stalin and Roosevelt campaigns.
Siberia:
Build wealth for a turn. Then build hospital (overflow 151 hammers). Then build recycling center (overflow 202 hammers). Then start dam on T+3. Complete dam on T+8 (207 overflow). Set build to R&R. Complete R&R on T+10 (109 overflow). Set build to Eiffel Tower, complete on T+13. Set to wealth.
Pigs:
Mining dude for Rostov; wealth for one turn. At T+2, switch to workers and build 10 workers (1/turn) for Roosevelt clean-up.
GP Farm:
Finish observatory. At T+2, build wealth.
Cuba:
Finish harbor. T+1: galleon (3 turns); T+4: infantry(4 turns); T+8: worker (2 turns); T+10 worker (2 turns). Repeat cycle. These workers will clean up
Bahamas:
Build wealth.
Bermuda:
T+0: barracks (1 turn); then build marines for Stalin Roosevelt campaigns.
Rheims:
Harbor (1 turn); T+1: lighthouse (1 turn to ease food balancing). Then set to wealth.
Bananas (will later build a casing or thruster):
Observatory (2 turns); then marines (2 turns each) for Roosevelt campaign until research institute available.
Paris:
University(1); marine(2); worker(1); marine(2); worker(1); marine (2); marine (2); transport (2); battleship(3)
Kamchatka
Factory(3); workerx2 for northern tundra clean-up and terraform; wealth
Orleans
Barracks(1); workerx4 (for Roosevelt); wealth.
Chengdu
Revolt (3); factory(?); barracks(?); marines
Bcool island
Wealth
Shanghai
Barracks(1); wealth
Crabbes
Observatory(1); barracks(1); wealth
Beijing
Obsevatory(2); harbor to hire more specialists(1); marines
Guangzhou
Harbor to hire more specialists(1); barracks(1); marines
Nanjing
Library(1); theater(1); observatory(3); university(4); wealth
Hammer City
Wealth
Tours
Factory(3); barracks(1); theater(1); wealth
Haiti
Coal plant(1); harbor(1); wealth until transports available and
then build transports
Hastings
Sushi/mining execs
Nottingham
Forge(3); worker(2 turns each) on cycle
York
Library(1); factory(6); wealth
Oxford
Factory(7); harbor(1); wealth
Newcastle
Mining/sushi for Indian lands
Iron Spice
Galleon to scout remaining fog (1); library(1); wealth
Mitchums Oasis
Courthouse(2); wealth
London
Jail(1); wealth
Canterbury
Factory(3); wealth
Warwick
Courthouse(7); wealth
Steam
Factory(5); wealth
Rostov
Granary (2); forge(2); wealth
Yaroslav
Granary(2); forge(5); wealth
Yekaterinburg
Courthouse(2); granary(3); forge(5); wealth
Jamaica
Forge(5); drydock(3); transports(?)
Vijay
Mining exec(4); forge(4); mining exec (3)
Agra
Courthouse(6); workers
Delhi
Courthouse(19); workers
Patali
Workers
Bombay
Workers
Calcutta
Workers
shyuhe
Deity
GPP plan is as above - with team decision on whether to move Rheims before or after GP Farm.
Here is a proposed tech plan: plastics(3)--radio(2)--computers(3)--superconductors(3)--fission(2)--artillery(2)--rocketry(2)--fiber optics(4)--fusion(4)--satellites(3)--composites--genetics(3)? I think the stasis chamber is the cheapest part we can leave until the end, although the health would be nice earlier...
Here is a proposed tech plan: plastics(3)--radio(2)--computers(3)--superconductors(3)--fission(2)--artillery(2)--rocketry(2)--fiber optics(4)--fusion(4)--satellites(3)--composites--genetics(3)? I think the stasis chamber is the cheapest part we can leave until the end, although the health would be nice earlier...
Mitchum
Deity
Do we really need that many marines? We have a ton of experienced troops that may be useable, even with the amphibious penalty. Science is the limiting factor, so it may be better to convert some of those marine builds to wealth.
How many workers total do you plan to build? How many of them go to Roosevelt?
Will all of the late-game forge builds pay off?
How many workers total do you plan to build? How many of them go to Roosevelt?
Will all of the late-game forge builds pay off?
Mitchum
Deity
That seems like a lot of turns. Are the numbers based on our current sustainable rate? Is it possible that our research rate will pick up? We have a target of finishing research in 18 turns.
Mitchum
Deity
We need to be thinking very lean here. The sooner we can build wealth in enough cities to keep the science slider at 100% AND run scientists everywhere (other than gp cities), the sooner we finish our research and the sooner we win the game. If a build (e.g. forge, library, worker, marine, etc.) does not help us to reach this goal, it should not be done.
Of course, this has to be balanced with our other goals of killing Stalin and scubbing the rest of the fallout.
Of course, this has to be balanced with our other goals of killing Stalin and scubbing the rest of the fallout.
bcool
Deity
might as well send a spy or 2 over to stalin's capital asap. With a city revolt and some marines the capital will fall on the first turn.
Mitchum
Deity
I was thinking the same thing. We still have a spy sitting in St Nick that could hop on the next ferry to Old Russia. I'm sure that we could spare another one near Troy/Vlad too. Lastly, we should have enough epp on Stalin such that we could afford to incite a revolt in Stalin's capital with a 0% stationary spy bonus just in case the first one (two) fail.
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