Impossible to win without Great Library?

Dushku said:

You can reliably generate Settlers at 2 pop. Do you do it? Of course you don't.

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Here is a thought exercise for you: If every city could get a GL, would you do that? Assuming no competition, timing for building the GL should be about the same as regular Library. It is about 3x the hammers for about 2x the effect of regular library. So maybe not the strongest Wonder, but pretty objectively worth the opportunity cost.

beetle said:

Here is a thought exercise for you: If every city could get a GL, would you do that? Assuming no competition, timing for building the GL should be about the same as regular Library. It is about 3x the hammers for about 2x the effect of regular library. So maybe not the strongest Wonder, but pretty objectively worth the opportunity cost.

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Then it's like being able to build Oxford in every city. Wide would be absolutely insane. Each new city would be a free tech. Use production trade routes for each city, and rush artillery by turn 100.

beetle said:

objectively worth the opportunity cost.

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Value is subjective. We couldn't have this conversation if there was an objective answer.

For that matter, why should I commit to your analogy when you wouldn't commit to mine?

Finally, your thought experiment isn't relevant. You're essentially asking "would you do X if all the reasons not to do it were no longer a factor?" I would consider that a non-question.

Meanwhile, my thought experiment was an accurate representation of opportunity cost. You CAN build a Settler at turn 2. The reason you do not is because the opportunity cost is too high. I would argue that you CAN build the GL, but shouldn't because the opportunity cost is too high for such a pivotal point in the game.

Or were you not interested in testing your initial theory that everybody would build GL if they thought they could consistently do so?

Has there been any civ iteration when the Great Library wasn't a trap? I think in civ3 it might have been worth it, but I never played the higher levels.

Dushku said:

For that matter, why should I commit to your analogy when you wouldn't commit to mine?

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Sorry, I though you were asking a rhetorical question. I agree completely that just because you CAN build a Settler at turn 2 (or pop 2) -- that does not imply you should.

The only classic era wonder I can build at all reliably is the Pyramids, so that is the context of my experience. But Pyramids is not put in the queue ASAP, just early. I don't think GL is any earlier in the tech path anyway, but if GL were feasible, it would not make any sense to start it much before one normally starts a Library.

Mine is a more theoretical discussion since there is no real point thinking about GL timing -- since GL is not feasible at Deity. But playing at a lower level? What you get for the hammers is quite good. Much of the dismissing around GL sounds like sour grapes to me. So I think OP might be making a legitimate complaint. But that is hard to know because he has not come back to the thread.

I would argue that you CAN build the GL, but shouldn't because the opportunity cost is too high for such a pivotal point in the game.

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Okay, you are describing GL in the context of actual Deity play. I don't think that is the scenario OP describes. If it were, he would be curb stomping his friend, not the other way around!

I'm not convinced it is that game breaking. I mean I'm not going to sit here and say "GL does NOTHING for you!". But I don't see it as any stronger than something like Hanging Gardens. You get one free tech when techs are cheap. 9 out of 10 times, it is going to be used on Philosophy, and likely a slightly quicker NC. The strength of NC is scaling science in a high pop. capital, which Hanging Gardens also gives.

Honestly the best thing about the GL is probably the 1 GS point, 2 if you pair it with Oracle. Which means your first GS comes early enough where you could probably settle it as an academy and get good returns on it. Is this enough to say it is game breaking, that it decides the match alone? Eh... still not convinced. Taking the time to build both GL and Oracle is a massive time investment, and the player who focuses on strong infrastructure or other wonder combinations (Artemis + HG for example) is still going to be in a competitive position.

I will agree that in a OCC or maybe even just two cities, then the value of GL goes up. Partly because you are opting out of expansions anyway and partly because OCC gets more value out of conditional bonuses. What I mean is if you miss out on observatories in a high pop. 5 city empire all running Secularism GS's, you are still going to have decent science. In a OCC, not having that observatory is a huge hit since it is a large part of your total science. In the same way, getting earlier GS points and an earlier NC is huge for a OCC, since you can't make up that science through other means.

Matthew. said:

I will agree that in a OCC or maybe even just two cities, then the value of GL goes up.

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Don't forget its Great Works slots. (all the more reason it's a good wonder to have in a puppet city; the city will expand its borders faster);

beetle said:

Much of the dismissing around GL sounds like sour grapes to me.

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You might be right.

As for me, the earliest I would feel ready to consider such a thing would be in the early 80s. Since it often goes around 50-ish (I've only played up to Emperor with any regularity), I have to conclude that it is NOT sour grapes in my case. I've won enough games to know that what I'm doing in those first 80 turns is more valuable than a gimmicky 1 time free tech.

In fact, while I do build Pyramids when playing Liberty EVENTUALLY, the only early wonder I ever consider worth my time is Mausoleum. Obviously that one is very situational. And it's one I don't build until I feel my Settlers are out and military are capable of handling the empire while the capital goes offline for a bit. Of course this is also partially due to the fact that usually when MoH is an option, Marble is connected, making the process less of a gamble. Though I think in the future, I'm going to take Hanging Gardens more seriously for capitals without river access.

Then again, MoH will be responsible for THOUSANDS of gold across the course of the game whereas even considering the free tech, GL will only contribute less that a thousand science. Even when not going for a SV, I can produce 1,000 sciene PER TURN regularly. Put in that context, would you view it worth putting off Settlers, Workes, military, and/or infrastructure for what amounts to one day's worth of science? I realize it's a subjective analysis, but the answer seems so clear to me.

claudiupb said:

Has there been any civ iteration when the Great Library wasn't a trap? I think in civ3 it might have been worth it, but I never played the higher levels.

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In the earlier Civs (including SMAC) the player is always at par or ahead of the AI so the library wasn't that good - all it usually did was catch you up to mid-game techs that other civs already had.

In Civ 3 it was good because you could capture it in without researching the tech that shut it off on the harder difficulties and get slung into the modern age in one turn. But that was the harder difficulties where you're always behind the AIs due to the bonuses given to them (though even on lower difficulties there was an issue in Civ3 where the AI would trade techs among each other for virtually nothing and either refuse to trade at all with you or demand all of your money, lux and cities for even one tech.)

Depending on difficulty, certain classical/ancients wonders are possible and are justified. Like others said, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Petra, Mausoleum are obtainable even on deity without too much difficulty with some luck. They are even easier to get on immortal or below. The others I would consider much harder to get and often not worth the risk. There are cases of getting GL even on deity, but it requires a strong start and luck with getting Writing from ruins. The game usually snowballs if you're able to follow it up. And there are also games where every wonders before Renaissance were impossible to get because AI tech were too quick.

The Great Library is somewhat of a trap. The AI favors it (especially from King onwards) and generally gets it first but it doesn't matter really, if any CPU-CIV gets it the AI wins - if you waste hammers getting it, the AI still wins. The early game AI worries most about your food and production. Science is not going to matter at all if you do not have a solid foundation.

Great library could be useful if you play really tall and run out of great works of writing space. Since the gl acts like a primitive Oxford University by having a pair of great works of writing space, going tall with internal food routes, you would have enough space for writing until you get your Oxford University built. This issue has happened to me in the past before, where running out of writing space left me no choice but to get the political treatise and miss out on more tourism for CV or ideologies.

The gl could be underestimated for tall players since great works of writing with theme will get you more tourism for the future.

The only scenario that GL is worth making would be if you are isolated, meaning you don't have to worry about your expansion locations being snatched up and you found a ruin that gives you writing. With a writing ruin you are pretty much guaranteed to get it. With no risk and only reward it becomes a worthwhile wonder.

Then you can get philo with it and got straight for your NC since you're isolated. Once NC is completed you then leaf out your cities. This can lead to a big science advantage. Hopefully you are able to steal some workers during this process. Otherwise your land would not be improved for a long time.

This is in regard to MP. In SP I would never try to get GL on Deity or Immortal because the AI beelines very hard. Ive seen it go on turn 16 on Deity.

The quickest I have ever manged to get GL is turn 21 on quick pace. That was no small feat. Turn 25 is mediocre and it should not even be attempted if you can't get it by T25 in MP. Turn 22 - 23 is extremely good and 24 is above average.

I normally would only build GL if I was going to build a normal library anyways and no one else has built it. This is quite rare but it does happen in games with higher skilled players who don't rush GL ever.

claudiupb said:

Has there been any civ iteration when the Great Library wasn't a trap? I think in civ3 it might have been worth it, but I never played the higher levels.

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Civ IV with Marble. Fail gold from wonders when you had the resource that doubled production of a world wonder was sometimes worthwhile. This was especially the case if in addition to having the resource you were playing an Industrious civ.

I actually remember a few times with Civ IV with some other Great Wonders being slightly grumpy since I actually completed the wonder instead of getting fail gold.

Back to Civ V, yes, Great Library is a trap because fail gold is so little it puts you far behind not having tried compared to building the small one combined with on high difficulty levels low percentage chance of completing.
But in this case it shouldn't be confused with optimum play in terms of turn number. If built quickly enough it results in National College by turn 55 compared to the norm of turn 85. (Both numbers non-Babylon/non-Korea)

The other sense in which its a trap is that if the start has so poor production that the Great Library doesn't complete until well after an AI on King would have normally taken it, then all those turns without a small library will have completely have eaten up the turn savings of the Great Library. (e.g. you are back where you were if you had instead built a small library)

How do people feel about the Great Library using the Liberty tree.

I tend to feel that the opportunity cost for early wonders isn't quite as bad on Liberty because you can rush/chop a wonder while you are waiting for your free settler policy.
You can have your expo ready to plant & once GL finishes slingshot to Philosophy and get the NC done. Then you can focus heavily on settler building.

Redaxe said:

How do people feel about the Great Library using the Liberty tree.

I tend to feel that the opportunity cost for early wonders isn't quite as bad on Liberty because you can rush/chop a wonder while you are waiting for your free settler policy.
You can have your expo ready to plant & once GL finishes slingshot to Philosophy and get the NC done. Then you can focus heavily on settler building.

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Getting a free tech and combined with a free settler can definitely give you a nice early lead over a typical tradition player. However, that lead will dissipate over time as tradition catches up to Liberty and surpasses it over the long term.

You would want to convert that city/tech lead into an early attack and take a nice tradition cap.

However, you must remember that the opportunity cost of GL is still a settler or more. So ask yourself if you would like 2 cities and GL or 3 cities around the same time. A super early 2nd city and 3rd liberty settler city is a very strong opening which can be converted into an attack on your typical tradition player.

Redaxe said:

I tend to feel that the opportunity cost for early wonders isn't quite as bad on Liberty because you can rush/chop a wonder while you are waiting for your free settler policy.

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I agree. But is that not how most players get Pyramids with Liberty? Even then, Pyramids is not 100% on Deity. And would you trade Pyramids for Great Library or Stonehenge? I don't think I would! And suppose the gamble pays off: you chop out GL or SH and none of the AIs have opened Liberty... Do you start on Pyramids or would that put you too far behind?

Even on lower difficulties like Prince (which I play on), I find it better to just skip getting the Great Library. In that same time, you can greatly improve the infrastructure by cranking out a normal library and then a settler or worker. I mean, if you can get it pretty quickly because of wonder building bonuses like Monument to the Gods/Aristrocracy/Marble/Being Egypt/Writing from a ruin, then it's great, but I always find myself better off by using those valuable turns to build other stuff.

beetle said:

I agree. But is that not how most players get Pyramids with Liberty? Even then, Pyramids is not 100% on Deity. And would you trade Pyramids for Great Library or Stonehenge? I don't think I would! And suppose the gamble pays off: you chop out GL or SH and none of the AIs have opened Liberty... Do you start on Pyramids or would that put you too far behind?

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well if no AI has any points in Liberty I'd feel pretty safe that I can delay it until I get my settlers out.