Indonesia discussion

I make a prediction here and now that the Indonesian will be one of the first to be rebalanced. (Even if the UA is as strong to balance out the rather random UB, it's still a good candidate for rebalancement since - well - the UA is so strong ;))

If I was a betting man, I'd say the same.

I think the freshwater requirement is unusual for the Candi
 
@wigwam True, it can be quite an amount of faith (but it takes work to keep the income coming in). Also:

@Louis_XXIV I adressed that in my post. To keep it short, :c5faith: is an all-or-nothing yield. Either you use it for your religion or it is negligible. [The exception being if you use a reliquary- and/or Holy Site-Spam Strategy to being able to mass spam Great Persons in the late game. That however is more of an exploit than anything else, so should not be counted].

Either you want a religion and build it so it uses up :c5faith: or you don't need the yield at all. It's one of the bigger mysteries since it's more of a detour to a victory condition than it's an integral part of one (with the exception of overpowered beliefs like reliquary). So you want to go for religion, which means spreading it which means less benefit from candi. [Exception: there may be a new belief suited to not killing of these 1 citizen minority religions]. Or you don't go for it, which means much easy :c5faith: to buy Great People later on, but that conflicts with the Garden's inherent bonus...

Also, having a building you can't build everyhwere just sucks.

It's really a riddle to me, but the answer seems to be that Indonesia just is a very hard to play civ which needs much strategy to get the most out of your uniques. It will also probably work better on higher difficulty levels. All in all, it seems to be the opposite of Egypt, the beginners friendly lower levels civ that helps you get wonders (shiny) and keep your tall cities happy (burial tomb).
 
It's really a riddle to me, but the answer seems to be that Indonesia just is a very hard to play civ which needs much strategy to get the most out of your uniques. It will also probably work better on higher difficulty levels. All in all, it seems to be the opposite of Egypt, the beginners friendly lower levels civ that helps you get wonders (shiny) and keep your tall cities happy (burial tomb).

This.

I'll be looking towards the elite experts around here (as well as Let's Players) to help give some strategy because Indonesia looks quite challenging.

It's funny, they seemed to have copied many of the ideas from the original Ideas and Suggestions thread for new civ leaders a while ago. Like for the Candi, and the idea of getting a bonus for having multiple religions. And the Kris Swordsman. ...and the idea of having a bonus for archipelago. But maybe it's just a coincidence. :lol:

I honestly wonder how much of it they came up with for a strategy in mind, or if they wanted something unique

Also, having a building you can't build everywhere just sucks.

Especially when it's a Garden, not to mention a Candi where the bonus is not fixed.
 
@Louis_XXIV I adressed that in my post. To keep it short, :c5faith: is an all-or-nothing yield. Either you use it for your religion or it is negligible. [The exception being if you use a reliquary- and/or Holy Site-Spam Strategy to being able to mass spam Great Persons in the late game. That however is more of an exploit than anything else, so should not be counted].

I might be missing something here, but using faith to spam great persons is a deliberate design feature, not an exploit. It's doing exactly what it's intended to do. In fact, I suspect Indonesia, especially, is intended to do that simply because it encourages faith for something other than founding your own religion.
 
The exploit I'm referring to is picking reliquary as a belief and additionally spamming Holy Sites. This way it's easy to get massive amounts of :c5faith:, when using the Prophets and later the bought scientists and so on to get more of them. Reliquary essentially makes it a cycle. It's not a massive exploit and it's not the most terrible one, but it's probably not the way the developers intended it. Together with a few well placed Rationalism policies, you can really speed through the modern eras. I'd say many players underestimate the belief.

@seancolorado Glad you agree...
 
I honestly wonder how much of it they came up with for a strategy in mind, or if they wanted something unique

I don't know how much of the UA/UB planning was for strategy, but I do think the abilities were made like that to make it to be kind of like Indonesia in real life (which is why I love this new civ so much, among other reasons.)

edit: also, The Candi (which should probably lose it's fresh water dependancy) would be quite nice for GWAM generation, which I heard somewhere (should probably be sourced on that) are majorly bought by faith (I would also agree with Louis XXIV that reliquary spam isn't an exploit. When something lets you buys stuff for less, they expect you to buy more of it.) . Like most of the other new trade civs, I see Indonesia as pretty open to any victory, they're just forced to be a little more creative when doing so.
 
Wow, Candi sounds wierd. My first attempt at making it work will be to get as many religions as possible, trying to get holy warriors (If can't find elsewhere, found and keep in 1 city, where I build my armoury etc). Then buy a tonne of the UU, upgrade to muskets (I assume the promotion carries over) and go crush some people. Either that or a similar thing with Interfaith dialogue would work, a tall religious neighbour would help for this, but then keeping religious diversity would be tough.
Problem is getting all the religions. Not sure how trade routes affect this (someone mentioned something about religion spread with them?) but the balance is gonna be really tough. Also the land seems kinda pre-determined, indonesia needs islands around a continent with lots 'o' rivers. Hmm. After all this, still not sure how the +25GP generation will help such a wide civ? Or maybe I should be thinking taller?
 
How do you think this "completely random" promotion is going to work for the swordsman UU?

Will the promotion be random along the melee path only? Promotions the mounted and scouting path would also work, but all other paths would be mostly non applicable for swordsman.

It looks like the best promo to get immediately would be either shock/drill III. That would allow for march and blitz by 30xp.

Much like when I play Spain and find zero natural wonders first, I expect to be getting a lot of "ambush" promotions on my Kris warriors.

Promotion chart.
 
ah so they are the tradeing civ that uses faith. i was hopeing for a civ like that.

How do you think this "completely random" promotion is going to work for the swordsman UU?

Will the promotion be random along the melee path only? Promotions the mounted and scouting path would also work, but all other paths would be mostly non applicable for swordsman.

It looks like the best promo to get immediately would be either shock/drill III. That would allow for march and blitz by 30xp.

Much like when I play Spain and find zero natural wonders first, I expect to be getting a lot of "ambush" promotions on my Kris warriors.

Promotion chart.

the way i see it is 3 possibility

the promotions are from a specific list designed for this unit ( this could be cool stuff like woodsman, free pillage, sacrificial captives etc)
or
the promotions are taken from the list of all promotions available to swordsmen ( this could be stuff like march, charge and siege )
or
either getting shock 1 or drill 1 ( still a good deal as it will give u a free promotion allowing u to get to the next tier very fast and most probably the next 2 from barbarians. the 3rd tier is where the good stuff is )
 
I might be missing something here, but using faith to spam great persons is a deliberate design feature, not an exploit. It's doing exactly what it's intended to do. In fact, I suspect Indonesia, especially, is intended to do that simply because it encourages faith for something other than founding your own religion.

That is how I see it as well. Indonesia will benefit from being the civ that doesn't found a religion. I could see a potential strategy where you wait for an AI religion to spread to one of your cities then make missionaries of that religion and spread it around. Repeat for each AI religion. Use your Great Prophets to make improvements rather than found a religion. Once the Industrial Era kicks off and you have completed a SoPol tree, you should be in a good position to spam Great People.
 
Basically Indonesia can beeline all the way through Astronomy, get few Shelters, let them go all around the world, and be good with everyone (with unique resources), then beeline to Ironworking and spam Kris warriors with Holy Warriors?

I am seeing a scenario where Indonesia would get flanked everywhere in the world if the AI is still prone to declaring war.....
 
A.) Settle 3 cities on other continents
B.) Use the extra happiness the build a few more freshwater cities, that are each close to cities of differing religions, and trade route to new faiths
C.) Use the Faith to buy the Kris, engage them with barbs to find out the potential and send them to defend your wide borders based on their promotion.
 
Too many new informations.. Brain cannot compute.. :crazyeye:
- No unique resource?? So, what is exacly the new resource linked with a civ??
- Unique KS promotions.. Hey, is it retained thru upgrades??
- Candi.. Erm.., the restriction is still there?? Darn..

My feelings are mixed.. :crazyeye:
 
The full reveal did turn Indonesia from pretty much a guaranteed one time for achievement and the newness factor on a water map civ to a strong candidate for my second water map civ after Polynesia. If I'm going to play a civ it needs either power, uniqueness, my historical interest or be a test run. Indonesia will at least be unique. I hope they give them a coastal and river bias so you can get the candi up. I know river bias is strong but in BNW it will not be as OP. At least that would give Indonesia something on a Pangaea.

The Candi is actually sounding like a decent UB, now that I know it has 2 :c5faith: naturally and plus 2 :c5faith: for each World Religion. That should include your own which will mean a candi will have 4 :c5faith: pretty much naturally. Run trade routes through it to civs with other religions and the pressure should easily get a follower or 2 for you. A coastal candi, for trade range, might be easily gotten to 8 :c5faith: if the city is tall enough which Indonesia's extra happiness will help. All that faith for late game plus 25% gpp will allow Indonesia to be a strong GP faction late game. At least I will have something extra to plan for. Though I think this civ is relegated to Archipelago maps or lower.

As for the Kris Swordsman at least the promotions are unique.
 
I wish Candi had replaced Temple instead of Garden and gave +gold and/or +tourism bonus.

Because, well, IRL most candis were Hindu or Buddhist temple and now their importance is almost solely as tourist attractions since both Malays of Sumatra and Javanese of Java are now Muslims. Only the Hindu Balinese keep using the candis as place of worship.
 
Top Bottom