Acken
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For Hubble, while it's not relevant to winning, it's simply mandatory to winning quickly (a SV).
Most overrated World Wonder?
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PhilBowles
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True, and this makes it a strong second-tier Wonder (I did say it was 'very nice'). It does not make it a great Wonder, but I often see it listed in top 5s.
Then again, I agree with the sentiment in another post that Chichen Itza is pretty heavily overrated as well.
PhilBowles
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I'd agree with most of this, but I wouldn't set Deity as the base level at which a Wonder has to be attainable or useful (which would rule out a lot of better Wonders than GL, such as Hanging Gardens or Petra).
GL is usually attainable on smaller maps on Immortal, but is rarely worth going for. These days it's a better Wonder for cultural VCs than science VCs, and even with 'good dirt' you have to build it so early the free tech you get is going to be a very cheap one not really worth the hammer investment. As far as GS point accumulation goes, it's only a couple of techs earlier than The Oracle, which has a more versatile and useful one-off effect (and good luck getting both together above Emperor without crippling early production). There are specific civs I'd prioritise the GL with, but for most pulling it off isn't worth either the investment or the risk (since it's usually built instead of a Library, and losing the race for it actively sets you back when you could have had a library sooner).
Borobodur may indeed be overrated, but equally it's a very easy Wonder to underrate. It's extremely context-dependent due both to the need to have targets for all those missionaries and its reliance on getting a religion that particularly benefits you when spread (and also based on whether or not you also have Djenne, but as the AI prioritises Borobodur getting both without a Great Engineer is basically impossible) - and spread early. Even in ideal circumstances I don't find that religion generally has enough payoff to make this a 'must-have' Wonder (save perhaps for having a lot of early foreign converts plus World Church to speed your way through the policy tree), but it's certainly good and undeniably better than the other religious Wonders.
PhilBowles
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Yes, Mausoleum is certainly underrated rather than overrated. It's weaker in BNW, if anything, because by the time you have GPs to expend in quantity you also have enough money from trade, so I now rarely build it without marble or stone, but while it's no high-tier Wonder it's not bad by any means.
CN Tower is in a very bad place in the tech tree. You only unlock it at all if aiming at cultural victory, and if doing that you want all your broadcast towers up long before you can build CN Tower - it's not going to do enough to help you that late. And that strategy doesn't particularly lend itself to the sorts of conquest that make the free towers in conquered cities relevant. The extra population is more relevant, but still by this point in the game you should be ahead in whatever victory condition you're aiming at, and if not it's not clear how this will help.
I don't. Hubble is, thematically, the one modern Wonder in the game that fully deserves its place.
I have never won a game building Hubble that I wasn't certain to win anyway. Even close games where I'm 'just' losing, when I build Hubble I still lose - if you're losing the science race, the AI has more science output and their GSes explode for more beakers than yours, even if they have fewer of them.
When was the last time barbarians raided your Hanging Gardens? HG gives a fixed bonus that doesn't require using a trade route or having two coastal cities (and, requiring Tradition, expects you to play a game without many cities), isn't affected by pirates or war, doesn't require a coastal situation, and boosts GP production as well as producing an important early Great Engineer point. All for two and a half times the hammers of a cargo ship.
It's pretty hard to overrate all that if you want to. It's probably weaker comparatively than it was in G&K, but is arguably still the best Wonder in the game.
OldEarthRelic
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Disagree. I typically play Deity Science, and there it's vital. I normally beeline it. If I didn't get it, I would often not win. A.I.s can be ahead in number of techs but not get to Satellites first.
reddishrecue
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Getting to satellites first does become important when going for a science victory because AIs usually don't beeline to satellites and is usually a reason why ai loses a science lead at times.
OldEarthRelic
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If you're going SV, Hubble is the best wonder in the game, no question. If you're not going SV, Hubble may be the worst. The high place Hubble gets is probably because SV is possibly the easiest VC on higher levels.
Statue of Liberty - the only reason to go Freedom is if you have a lot of specialists anyway (like you're Korea). Then it will give you a huge amount of hammers - well worth it.
Big Ben & Freedom - If you're not Korea running almost every available GP slot, Order is better than Freedom for SV. A good Freedom player will only buy one Spaceship part - the last one. Everything else is built before you finish Particle Physics. Big Ben would be critical for Venice for the GM points.
Statue of Liberty - the only reason to go Freedom is if you have a lot of specialists anyway (like you're Korea). Then it will give you a huge amount of hammers - well worth it.
Big Ben & Freedom - If you're not Korea running almost every available GP slot, Order is better than Freedom for SV. A good Freedom player will only buy one Spaceship part - the last one. Everything else is built before you finish Particle Physics. Big Ben would be critical for Venice for the GM points.
PhilBowles
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Both Civs I and II, but it only provided techs two other civs (determined when you built it) had learned that you hadn't. I think it was Civ III that gave this effect to the Internet, much later in the tech tree.
Most Wonders are weaker, relatively speaking, than counterparts in Civs I and II, which makes sense as there are many more of them.
PhilBowles
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From recollection of that thread, the main reason it ranked so high was the tourism boost for culture VC.
PhilBowles
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I recall the thread, and the Forbidden Palace was rated as highly as it was because the value of Congress-control was well-understood. But FP's value for controlling the Congress declines very quickly as numbers of votes from city-states tally up, and controlling the early sessions before CS votes are counted, and where few options are available, is not a particularly great bonus.
Great Wall produced a bit of debate, but it was never going to rank high because it's next to worthless against the AI despite being very strong in multiplayer. Players don't need to worry overly about AI attacks, and aren't slowed significantly against an AI with it themselves (especially since late-game domination strategies are only going to get underway once it's obsolete).
Machu Picchu loses out because wide empires aren't that heavily favoured (or at least weren't at the time of the poll); Pyramids probably lost out on the same basis, Chichen Itza fell by the wayside because it's too hard to get - even on Emperor - relative to the value of its effect. Great Wall is very weak in multiplayer. And Hubble is overrated at 5.
PhilBowles
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In that situation there's a reasonable chance that accumulated gold from Mausoleum (you mean you're using all those Great Admirals you accumulate in combat, not to mention surplus Great Generals, for anything else?), the trade Wonders, Machu Picchu (seriously, you're playing domination and don't have this?) or even Neuchwanstein would be a better option than Big Ben; all are cheaper and provide boosts comparable to or greater than Big Ben for an emergency one-off payment.
What wonder is mandatory? And I have had Hubble make the difference between winning and losing. It shaves off about 10-15 turns of your victory. About the only wonder that might be able to claim that is Petra.
PhilBowles
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If you're going for science victory and the AI is 10-15 turns ahead, chances are they're closer to Satellites than you are despite not beelining it.
Okay, so if you can somehow fine-tune your game so that the AI is pretty much exactly that far ahead, so that you haven't either got the game sewn up or aren't too far behind to catch up, I accept that Hubble may make a difference. In practice, I've never had it happen to me and it seems a generally unlikely situation to be in.
I'm not at all sure why you'd claim Petra as the only other wonder that can shave time off a victory - Petra's contribution to any specific victory condition is going to be more limited than that of specialised food or production Wonders, and the religion Wonders (indirectly), the Colossus or - in wide empires - Machu Picchu can outdo its gold output. The extra science from either the Hanging Gardens or the Hanging Gardens is likely to shave substantially more off your victory in the long run (while certain culture wonders are indeed mandatory for cultural victory). What's the basis of your calculation?
In the above list, Petra, Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis all come below Hubble. Move these to more appropriate spots (and the Statue of Liberty down) and Hubble is still a top 10 Wonder, which is a fine placement for it. It's just not top 5.
Hanging gardens only gives 6 food per turn. Petra can easily give 6 food per turn if you have 6 desert tiles, and give you 6 hammers per turn as well, so I'd put Petra over Hanging gardens any day.
If you think that those 10-15 turns saved by Hubble to be worthless, then I ask you, how does any other wonder help you more? In a Science victory condition at least, it does not matter one lick whether those 10-15 turns are saved early or late. 10-15 turns are 10-15 turns regardless of when they come. Why does it change anything, due to being later in the game or early? SV, are nothing but a race.
Anyways, leaning tower of pisa is also good. It will result in about 2-3 extra GS, so I'd put that above Hubble. I'm also not calling it the top wonder, just that it is worth quite a bit. It's usually about 15 turns shaved off on the GS's alone. It also gives a free Factory, which may shave several more turns off the victory, depending on your gold.
Edit: I guess I see why you view it the way you do. You are viewing a wonder built during the time of uncertainty as more valuable, because you it appears to give you a boost when you aren't sure you are winning. Of course, had you been beaten to building it, you still would have won in the vast majority of those games, but it appears to matter more due to the timing. I argue that the end result is simply a matter of how much time you shave off your game as a result of the wonder.
PhilBowles
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It doesn't work that way. Petra needs 6 citizens to work those tiles, and has to support them when the desert tiles themselves are rarely providing more than 2 food with the Petra bonus. 6 food without working tiles from HG is a straight boost - once you have them, it supports 3 citizens for free for the rest of the game. That's 3 base science, plus the library and NC boosts you'll have at that point, plus every other modifier that accumulates over time, from the moment you build HG from then on. And that's only when you've reached 'saturation' - i.e. discounting the extra rate of growth HG provides while those 6 food are unused - and ignores the bonus to Great Scientist production. It's also on top of any extra food and/or production the Gardens give you from tiles worked by those citizens, or specialist bonuses they provide.
So, at best, Petra more or less breaks even with the bonus you get from the HG in terms of its base food output alone, ignoring all the other benefits of the new citizens.
Petra is a great Wonder. Hanging Gardens is an amazing one.
You'd be right if the Wonders did, indeed, give a flat 'save you 10-15 turns' bonus. This isn't how they work - earlier Wonders have effects that accumulate over the course of the game, and the better early Wonders will save more than 10-15 turns as a result. You're arguing in circles if you assume Hubble's boost is the top end of what Wonders can provide and then claim it's a great Wonder because of that assumption. My point is that Hubble doesn't save as much time as some of the other Wonders.
And for that matter much of its bonus is dependent on having built early Wonders, because if you haven't been building things like Petra, Gardens and Pisa earlier, you aren't going to be in a position where you're only 10-15 turns behind the AI to begin with. That's a fundamental difference between Hubble and other late-game Wonders and early Wonders in their value - if you haven't invested in the early ones, the later ones won't help. It's fundamentally the early 'foundation' Wonders that win games. That's the importance of the timing.
Finally, most of the good Wonders have functional value while playing the game, they aren't just a win condition. Hanging Gardens has a strong effect on saving time taken to win the game, Petra likely a lesser one. But both have powerful, immediate effects that strengthen your city, make it better-able to adapt to circumstances and build units/buildings as needed to counter threats more immediate than 'race to the finish'. Hubble does nothing for you except speed your race to the finish line; given its tech placement, even the techs you get with the GSes are techs that will help with spaceship parts but not with any practical application such as units or production in the shorter term.
I have never gotten Petra where most my tiles only gave me 2 food with Petra. The majority of the time I have desert by rivers, which gives me great food tiles, and desert hills, which give great food and production tiles. If all you have is crap desert tiles with nothing, then I'd not bother, but that seems to be rare with the way this game works. Not to mention that the extra trade route from Petra pretty much breaks even with Hanging Gardens on it's own (more with a cargo ship).
And what level do you play at that you are relying on wonders to get you closer to a victory? The leaning tower of Pisa is great and all, and the Porcelain tower is pretty nice too, but I don't know of much else that really gives you a big boost for a SV.
And perhaps this is a skill level deal, but if you can't manage 5 turns of science from a GS at the time you get to Hubble, you are making science at a snails pace. I typically get at least 7 if not more from a GS at the time of Hubble.
I also really question just how much some of these early wonders actually provide, considering how precious early hammers are, and how worthless hammers are when building Hubble. There is nothing to build when Hubble is being built, but there are loads of stuff that needs to get done with those early, nearly impossible to build wonders.
It is hard to really see how many turns some of the early wonders give, but from my experience, getting HG, as an example, does not seem to make much of a difference. I've played the same game a few times, and sometimes I might get HG, sometimes I won't, but I don't see a big difference by the end as you claim.
Petra is the most overrated wonder.
The GL is clearly great if you get it but if you are beaten by 2 turns (how often does that happen?) you probably reroll the game. For that reason alone it shouldn't exist so early in the game.
Nothing after the industrial age matters, you've probably already won the game if you've got that far.
The GL is clearly great if you get it but if you are beaten by 2 turns (how often does that happen?) you probably reroll the game. For that reason alone it shouldn't exist so early in the game.
Nothing after the industrial age matters, you've probably already won the game if you've got that far.
PhilBowles
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Then to a large extent you're wasting Petra. It's primarily a production Wonder, not a food Wonder, and benefits most from areas with lots of hill tiles. In most situations, these are also the areas where it's easiest to build it. Those are also areas that tend to be short on food. Petra in oases or on flood plains is doable, but less efficient.
Unless you know something I don't, for most of the game Petra hill tiles will give you 1 food unless they're adjacent to a river or unless you're Inca or Morocco. Even if you are, this doesn't change the essential calculation - those citizens producing food on those tiles are still having to pay for themselves as well. Hanging Gardens gives you 6 food plus what the citizens it supports bring in working tiles themselves, which can commonly be the same again (sometimes more if it happens to be in a Petra city itself, or if you have the food pantheons).
I play on Immortal. And it's not a case of relying on Wonders to get to a science victory, more of needing them for game position whatever condition you aim for. Civ is not simply a race game, even aiming for science victory - there's a great deal you build, from the starting scout onwards, that does not directly help a rush to victory or shave turns off it, but which helps to put you in an advantageous position and respond to the game situation as it develops. Wonders are no different in that regard; Petra is as valuable as it is precisely because it is versatile and allows you to adapt quickly to situations in-game through enhanced production (and gold output, which translates to production), not because of time saved towards victory.
Which means 14 turns saved with Hubble, within the range we've been talking about. It's been precisely my point that if you aren't making enough science to be already in the lead when you hit Satellites, Hubble won't help (and conversely, that if you are, it's not relevant). Only if you're about breaking even with the AI will you notice the effect in terms of whether you win or lose (rather than how many turns you win by, not a metric I consider terribly relevant).
You're right, there's not a lot to build when Hubble becomes available. You may as well build it. The same logic, of course, applies to an Arsenal, or the Pentagon. And both will have roughly the same decisive impact on whether you win or lose as Hubble (but won't help you save time if you are winning). Early hammers are obviously valuable, but they're only valuable because of what you can turn them into. What's more valuable than turning them into food or science, or into something that generates more hammers than you expend?
With HG specifically, since it's now Tradition-linked it's a little more obtainable without rushing than it used to be pre-BNW, and Mathematics for HG is pretty well-placed. Normally I'll have the vital early buildings and be in a slight lull before guilds (the buildings, not the tech) demand my attention. Petra is a bit more awkward at currency, but provides enough net benefit in terms of accelerated production and a free caravan that it's justifiable. ToA is a little too early to easily justify, but is advisable with Tradition for the long-term boost. The Oracle is hard to quantify, but can be very good for setting up game position.
None of the other Ancient and Classical Wonders are worth it in my view without specific strategies in mind or particular civs/starts that demand Stonehenge, Colossus or the Great Library.
I'm not going to argue with you any more. Clearly you have your head set against Petra and Hubble, but you also have zero clue what Petra gives.
Petra gives 1 food for all tiles, and 1 hammer on hills. It also gives you an extra trade route and caravan. The caravan alone is worth Hanging gardens, and you get food and hammers as a bonus.
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Petra_(Civ5)
Hanging Gardens does give the free Garden which is very useful if your start doesn't have fresh water access.
Also the +6 food will scale with Tradition's bonuses to growth and the Temple of Artemis where food Caravan's don't scale so generally the food value is going to be a bit higher than 6.
So there is that to consider as well. But I tend to agree Hanging Gardens isn't all that great, a coastal food route does give a much higher amount of food.
Also Petra requires enough desert hill tiles and oasis to make it a valuable. Whilst some Petra/desert sites will be amazing, many won't be.
Both Wonders can be considered highly situational. I would only put HG in the "must build" category if I was doing a 4 city Traditional strategy and needed the Garden.
Likewise Petra only if their is a city site that can gain something specific from it.
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