Acken
Deity
For Hubble, while it's not relevant to winning, it's simply mandatory to winning quickly (a SV).
For Hubble, while it's not relevant to winning, it's simply mandatory to winning quickly (a SV).
GL is awesome - you just need good dirt, so you don't have to sacrifice growth for it.
PT gives you a free GS. Its good even if you don't do RA's. And it was awesome before the fall patch, as RA's were actually useful ... Its one of the easier wonders to get in your sattelite cities when u are going for CV.
The most overrated wonders in my eyes are Statue of Zeus and the Great Lighthouse.
If you can actually reliably get Stonehenge you basically guarantee yourself a religion on Deity so long as it's at least a Large map (talking about the number of religins available)
Borbodour gives extra FPT and the three missionaries can spread your religion like wildfire. You would be hard pressed to get 3 missionaries before mid Renessaunce even if you go Piety, especially if you have a religious buildng.
Also, you guys don't seem to get what overrated means. Statue of Zeus and the Great Lighthouse are not overrated. Barely anyone even talks about them and Deity AI usually don't prioritize them.
The GL IS overrated because so many people whine about it when they first start playing Immortal/Deity. Having "good dirt" is putting it mildly. The hammer cost and the need to finish it before turn 35 to even have a shot on Deity makes it VERY overrated. 1 free tech that later on would cost you 1 turn to research? No thanks.
Oh no you didn't! Even if you don't have stone or marble, the Mausoleum pays off BIG TIME. Especially in BNW since you get $100 for all your great artists, writers, and musicians.
Now, CN Tower is also good, since the Broadcast Tower is a super expensive building and it will appear in ALL your cities, even little ones you settle after building the wonder or ones you conquer.
Hard to find an "overrated" wonder in my books. I can't say there's many that people talk highly of that aren't really all that good. Heck, there's not really many underrated ones either - there's not that many hidden gems there either.
Most overrated I suppose is the Hubble Space Telescope. I frankly wish it would get removed from the game.
So you call a wonder that makes a close game into a sure win, overrated. I still don't buy your logic. Not to mention that you can win a game, you would otherwise lose, because it slingshots you into the lead.
Hanging Gardens :O
Naval food routes are just as good these days and no competition to build cargo ships.
Most overrated I suppose is the Hubble Space Telescope. I frankly wish it would get removed from the game. The first player to reach Satellites gets two free scientists and a free spaceship factory. This catapults them a further two techs ahead and puts two nails in the coffin of second place in the science race.
There's little question of it going to anyone but the first player to hit Satellites either as there's probably a bit of a gap opened up between #1 and #2 at that point of the game. Then, the first person to get the tech burns a GE on it - there's been bugger-all for ages to spend one on. (Rush the Pentagon? Forget it.) You absolutely should have the Faith stored to buy a GE, or if you don't have full Tradition you're probably still going to have generated a GE sometime.
It's a strong wonder but it doesn't really do anything other than confirm the lead of the guy who's already ahead, and by a good margin at that. It changes almost zip about the game except to extinguish the last hopes of second through last place.
i am still unsure about great library of alexandria...but that might be i remember it for giving you any tech another civ learned that you hadnt got (not sure which civ version it did it in)
until something else was researched. so maybe my past experience is why the civ 5 'just a free tech' version doesnt seem all that hot.
I never build castles so I would only build Neuschwanstein to satisfy CS quests. But in my last game, I really did the math on how much I could get out of going back and building castles in all my cities. In the last game, they take you 2 turns (1 for the walls, 1 for the castle), cost nothing in maintenance, and with Neuschwanstein, they become little happiness/gold/culture/tourism boosters.
45-Angkor Wat
44-Pentagon
43-CN Tower
42-Terracotta Army
41-Parthenon
40-Cristo Redentor
Red Fort
Taj Mahal
Statue of Zeus
Kremlin
Great Firewall
Great Wall
Great Mosque of Djenne
Himeji Castle
Great Lighthouse
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Pyramids
Brandenburg Gate
Great Library
Hagia Sophia
Sydney Opera House
Alhambra
Globe Theater
Big Ben
Borobudur
Prora
Broadway- Overrated- Realisticlly, you are wasting Musicians at this time for late game where Tourism Bombs are worth so much more.
Uffizi
Louvre
Porcelain Tower
Forbidden Palace- Underrated. I believe is because this poll was close to release of BNW and players did not fully understand the Congress control value.
Hanging Gardens
Temple of Artemis
Stonehenge
Notre Dame
Colossus
Chichen Itza
Machu Picchu
Petra
5-Hubble Space Telescope
4-Statue of Liberty- So many things to build still. I dont understand how there is little to build from here on. Spaceship Parts, late game units (nukes), Wonders, even Wealth for money for bribing/buying.
3-Eiffel Tower- Effective for happiness. Tourism definetely helps with Ideology Pressure, so this is a excellent wonder. Not a "culture only wonder like Globe Theatre and others.
2-Sistine Chapel- Same as Eiffel. Who dosent want more policies?
1-Leaning Tower of Pisa
Where did this list come from? this is way way out of whack. I agree with Pisa being first but come on. Great wall and petra should be at the front.
It's more like Pisa, Hubble, Great Wall, Petra, Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Machu Pichu. IMO
Until that moment where you really need that submarine now and you only have 400 gold instead of 500. The only thing in question is the number of things you are going to buy. In conquest-autocracy, I will probably buy 30-40 units with gold and multiple buildings (barracks, courthouses). As long as you play to maximize the benefits of the Big Ben it will be about the best wonder you can wish for money wise. So it's situational, yes, but that's not the same as overrated.
True, and this makes it a strong second-tier Wonder (I did say it was 'very nice'). It does not make it a great Wonder, but I often see it listed in top 5s.
Then again, I agree with the sentiment in another post that Chichen Itza is pretty heavily overrated as well.
What wonder is mandatory? And I have had Hubble make the difference between winning and losing. It shaves off about 10-15 turns of your victory. About the only wonder that might be able to claim that is Petra.
If you're going for science victory and the AI is 10-15 turns ahead, chances are they're closer to Satellites than you are despite not beelining it.
Okay, so if you can somehow fine-tune your game so that the AI is pretty much exactly that far ahead, so that you haven't either got the game sewn up or aren't too far behind to catch up, I accept that Hubble may make a difference. In practice, I've never had it happen to me and it seems a generally unlikely situation to be in.
I'm not at all sure why you'd claim Petra as the only other wonder that can shave time off a victory - Petra's contribution to any specific victory condition is going to be more limited than that of specialised food or production Wonders, and the religion Wonders (indirectly), the Colossus or - in wide empires - Machu Picchu can outdo its gold output. The extra science from either the Hanging Gardens or the Hanging Gardens is likely to shave substantially more off your victory in the long run (while certain culture wonders are indeed mandatory for cultural victory). What's the basis of your calculation?
In the above list, Petra, Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis all come below Hubble. Move these to more appropriate spots (and the Statue of Liberty down) and Hubble is still a top 10 Wonder, which is a fine placement for it. It's just not top 5.
Hanging gardens only gives 6 food per turn. Petra can easily give 6 food per turn if you have 6 desert tiles, and give you 6 hammers per turn as well, so I'd put Petra over Hanging gardens any day.
If you think that those 10-15 turns saved by Hubble to be worthless, then I ask you, how does any other wonder help you more? In a Science victory condition at least, it does not matter one lick whether those 10-15 turns are saved early or late. 10-15 turns are 10-15 turns regardless of when they come.
It doesn't work that way. Petra needs 6 citizens to work those tiles, and has to support them when the desert tiles themselves are rarely providing more than 2 food with the Petra bonus. 6 food without working tiles from HG is a straight boost - once you have them, it supports 3 citizens for free for the rest of the game. That's 3 base science, plus the library and NC boosts you'll have at that point, plus every other modifier that accumulates over time, from the moment you build HG from then on. And that's only when you've reached 'saturation' - i.e. discounting the extra rate of growth HG provides while those 6 food are unused - and ignores the bonus to Great Scientist production. It's also on top of any extra food and/or production the Gardens give you from tiles worked by those citizens, or specialist bonuses they provide.
So, at best, Petra more or less breaks even with the bonus you get from the HG in terms of its base food output alone, ignoring all the other benefits of the new citizens.
Petra is a great Wonder. Hanging Gardens is an amazing one.
You'd be right if the Wonders did, indeed, give a flat 'save you 10-15 turns' bonus. This isn't how they work - earlier Wonders have effects that accumulate over the course of the game, and the better early Wonders will save more than 10-15 turns as a result. You're arguing in circles if you assume Hubble's boost is the top end of what Wonders can provide and then claim it's a great Wonder because of that assumption. My point is that Hubble doesn't save as much time as some of the other Wonders.
And for that matter much of its bonus is dependent on having built early Wonders, because if you haven't been building things like Petra, Gardens and Pisa earlier, you aren't going to be in a position where you're only 10-15 turns behind the AI to begin with. That's a fundamental difference between Hubble and other late-game Wonders and early Wonders in their value - if you haven't invested in the early ones, the later ones won't help. It's fundamentally the early 'foundation' Wonders that win games. That's the importance of the timing.
Finally, most of the good Wonders have functional value while playing the game, they aren't just a win condition. Hanging Gardens has a strong effect on saving time taken to win the game, Petra likely a lesser one. But both have powerful, immediate effects that strengthen your city, make it better-able to adapt to circumstances and build units/buildings as needed to counter threats more immediate than 'race to the finish'. Hubble does nothing for you except speed your race to the finish line; given its tech placement, even the techs you get with the GSes are techs that will help with spaceship parts but not with any practical application such as units or production in the shorter term.
I have never gotten Petra where most my tiles only gave me 2 food with Petra.
The majority of the time I have desert by rivers, which gives me great food tiles, and desert hills, which give great food and production tiles.
And what level do you play at that you are relying on wonders to get you closer to a victory? The leaning tower of Pisa is great and all, and the Porcelain tower is pretty nice too, but I don't know of much else that really gives you a big boost for a SV.
And perhaps this is a skill level deal, but if you can't manage 5 turns of science from a GS at the time you get to Hubble, you are making science at a snails pace. I typically get at least 7 if not more from a GS at the time of Hubble.
I also really question just how much some of these early wonders actually provide, considering how precious early hammers are, and how worthless hammers are when building Hubble. There is nothing to build when Hubble is being built, but there are loads of stuff that needs to get done with those early, nearly impossible to build wonders.
Unless you know something I don't, for most of the game Petra hill tiles will give you 1 food unless they're adjacent to a river or unless you're Inca or Morocco. Even if you are, this doesn't change the essential calculation - those citizens producing food on those tiles are still having to pay for themselves as well. Hanging Gardens gives you 6 food plus what the citizens it supports bring in working tiles themselves, which can commonly be the same again (sometimes more if it happens to be in a Petra city itself, or if you have the food pantheons).
+1 Food, +1 Production, for all desert tiles worked by this city (except Flood Plains).
Gains an additional trade route slot and a Caravan appears in the city.
+6 Culture once Archaeology is discovered.
City must be built on or next to Desert.
I'm not going to argue with you any more. Clearly you have your head set against Petra and Hubble, but you also have zero clue what Petra gives.
Petra gives 1 food for all tiles, and 1 hammer on hills. It also gives you an extra trade route and caravan. The caravan alone is worth Hanging gardens, and you get food and hammers as a bonus.
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Petra_(Civ5)