The Deity Challenge Line-up #31 - Ottomans

Granary is not always "useless" before settling building .. If it helps you get 1-2 extra pop that can work improved mine for settlers it is a great help .. Food itself is converted to hammers (albeit at a poor rate) when building settlers ..

But if you don't have early workers to improve lots of mines//quarries and no granary luxuries for extra food it is kind of wasted ..

cazaderonus said:

What is the actual math for city connection ? GPT is solely based on pop size ? Any thread\resource on this ?

As for unit production, i tend to crap out an archer at some point (which is more than enough with a warrior here), often too late for early barb camps quest, but seems Acken just doesnt lol.

Click to expand...

it's based on pop and then multiplied by a modifier probably related to gold output of that city itself.

In a nutshell, don't bother with connections until cities are around 5ish

peddroelm said:

Granary is not always "useless" before settling building .. If it helps you get 1-2 extra pop that can work improved mine for settlers it is a great help .. Food itself is converted to hammers (albeit at a poor rate) when building settlers ..

But if you don't have early workers to improve lots of mines//quarries and no granary luxuries for extra food it is kind of wasted ..

Click to expand...

Yeah obviously. But i never considered a granary being skippable until later. I guess it's more of a liberty thing to do.

As for food, it's converted to hammers up to a certain number if i'm correct ? So if you already have 3pop, with 2 mines and a farm, granary seems to be a lot less usefull. Those early hammers are so valuable, especially if you put them into a trade unit for a nice early science boost

I think I agree with Acken here (always a safe bet ).

If you're planning on pumping 4 settlers quickly, you won't be growing very big before starting the first settler. In the ottoman game, there was one grain but shared with the second expo (again, in Acken's plan). So, the granary would probably yield only 1 extra hammer, which is not worth the 60 hammer investment since it delays getting the expos out quite a bit.

This is complicated by the cargo ship that Acken built between 1st and 2nd settler, if the granary would allow an extra pop growth in that period it might be worth it in terms of getting all settlers out more quickly, but it would certainly delay the first settler and cargo ship.

Edit:

In a nutshell, don't bother with connections until cities are around 5ish

Click to expand...

That is traditional wisdom for tradition (heh), but for liberty the connection also gives +1 happy, which makes a lot of difference in the early game.

Math thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=438745. In a nutshell, 1.1*pop + .15*capital_pop - 1, or in other words, around 1 coin per connected city pop, more with a bigger capital, only city and cap pop count. So the break even point is approximately if #roads needed equals city size, but of course tactical considerations also count. I generally start connecting cities once the most important resources are connected, since I appreciate the tactical/logistical advantages of good roads, even if it means losing 1 or 2 gpt until the city grows.

A trivial tip is to put two turns of worker into each stretch of road (on flat lands) and the finish the road in one go at the end, shaving a couple turns off maintenance pay before the connection.

stormtrooper412 said:

it's based on pop and then multiplied by a modifier probably related to gold output of that city itself.

In a nutshell, don't bother with connections until cities are around 5ish

Click to expand...

Yeah, already tend to prioritize luxes and capital mines and farms before making my road connections. Would be curious to see the real numbers on GPT from connections though, may prove helpfull deciding for city placements. As for GPT form the city itself i'm not sure. I dont think i ever noticed any change in gold income when focusing tiles on gold (beside the actual difference from the tile themselves). Maybe it's based on overall gold resources in city perimeter ? Something like the Portugal UU based on resource variety ?

So digged a little and found this :

Gold output = (City population * 1.1) + (Capital population * 0.15) - 1

So yeah, for a 5 tile road to connect a city. You'll need to have at least 5 pop to make it even. And capital pop impact is damn low. A 10 pop capital barely negates the minus 1 in the formula.

vanatteveldt said:

That is traditional wisdom for tradition (heh), but for liberty the connection also gives +1 happy, which makes a lot of difference in the early game.

Click to expand...

Oh I see what you did there

Honestly I forgot that Liberty gives +1 happy per connected city but that particular policy is the finisher or second to last, because you go +1hammer, free settler, free worker first, so it's still safe to assume you won't start on roads until turn 60ish anyway

There are a few reasons to build roads before they become economically profitable:
- Liberty +1 happiness
- Messenger of the Gods science pantheon
- When expecting a DOW against an outlying city, so for defensive purposes
- As the Incans because roads are either damn cheap/free, so it doesn't matter

If you have idle workers, pre-building roads to within a 1 turn build time can be worth it for a very miserly/very cash-strapped player.

So can anyone tell me what the run-away is doing to be so tight with the CS? I tried picking up Treaty Org as my first tier 3 Freedom tenet -- but it hardly made a difference with the CS and ended up costing me a SV with a replay. I am redoing my last 50 turns, should be a SV ~T325.

You simply have to start paying them off earlier. Most of the time for whatever reason, the AIs won't touch your allies if your influence is well over 90-100. The Treaty Org, come to think of it, may not be that good when compared to patronage -> cash loan -> dump into CS who wants gifts of gold. If you start late, you can see AI influences reach the 200s, which is basically how I'd play if I had access to all that cash

Consentient very wisely noted that CSs are overlooked and that if you want many allies and/or a diplomatic win, start stocking influence much much earlier

stormtrooper412 said:

You simply have to start paying them off earlier. Most of the time for whatever reason, the AIs won't touch your allies if your influence is well over 90-100. The Treaty Org, come to think of it, may not be that good when compared to patronage -> cash loan -> dump into CS who wants gifts of gold. If you start late, you can see AI influences reach the 200s, which is basically how I'd play if I had access to all that cash

Consentient very wisely noted that CSs are overlooked and that if you want many allies and/or a diplomatic win, start stocking influence much much earlier

Click to expand...

Agree. In the Iroquois game i had all CS allied at some point, missed only 2 at the end of that game. Had also patronage finished, it's a powerful combo. Not that you would do this every game but CS shouldn't be neglected. Even in a domination game you'll probably need them for happiness.

cazaderonus said:

But getting a worker from spain ? Damn how did you pull that off ? The way she settles you can only get one from the above city (in my 2 previous experiences anyway) which requires an insanely good situation. If you could just DOW, steal, insta peace, i guess it would work but damn. First play i tried, i stole one and had no choice but sacrifice my warrior to save the worker. Also, you manage to get a religion on all your screenshots. Even in my tradition play with Altar + stone faith (aka +7 FPT quite early as i rushed masonry after potery), i got screwed big time.

Quick question btw. How soon do you build roads ? (btw, thanks for the build road till 1 turn left and stop trick )

Oh and i'll add one last. How do you deal with barbs ? You dont have any units early in your BO aside from the scouts and trireme. And i find it tough to get rid of 2/3 barb camps with just the one warrior. Especially if you want to grab early friendship with CSs. You just grind them ? (attack, retreat\heal, attack again)

Click to expand...

In the domination game I didn't steal a worker nor managed a religion. I may have been lucky the other time for the culture game. I build roads when cities are no longer working unimproved tiles and lux/strategics are all hooked. Often happens in the 70 region.

For barbs I suggest bringing back the warrior early and make an archer before settlers. On that map my scout just became said archer. Just start to hunt barb camps that are unlikely to give a quest first. Also on this map there really wasn't a lot of barbs in my games.

Regarding the following granary discussion my reasoning is that: if you'd grow without the granary anyway you should probably do something else than a granary (a caravan for example). Otherwise the granary will likely give you no more than 1 pop before settlers. And at that point you'll have to recognize the fact that you are basically waiting 10ish turns for a single citizen. Even if that citizen works a mine you will at best cut down a turn per settler production. BUT AT THE COST OF WAITING 10 TURNS.
Delaying settlers by X turns directly means ALL your expansion are losing X turns (minus the faster turns)! So... wouldn't the sacrifice of 4 turns of production in the capital be worth 6 to 10 turns of production in EVERY expansion ?
I apply the same reasoning with tradition and almost never make a granary before settlers.
The only time I consider a granary is when there are a lot granary ressources and in which case you'll get like a pop or 2 quickly and like 6 food out of it. The other reason is if I plan to make the GL before settlers on low difficulties.

Yeah religion on that map is quite randokm. In my current game i decided to just not try except for a quick pantheon for a little early help. Btw, just thougyt earlier that the +2 science pantheon for connected cities is actualy a solid option for a pantheon without bothering with getting a religion. Playing libertyvit can be a decent +10/12 beakers around turn 60 if you decide to rush roads a bit.

Anyway as i said i skipped religion and waited to see which religion would come to me. Spain had desert folklore plus jesuit education plus tempke happiness ( whoah right ?) so got 2 inquisitor asap for the capital and the incens north expo as 2 other guy were spamming religion. I think my cities switched maybe 3/4 times lol. In the end i m netting 20+ fpt without bothering a minute with religiin. I m considering doing this religion picking more often and skip altar early for a caravan/ship. I m strongly thinking AH/sailing as a first research if a neighboor is close enough for a safe trade route and i have enough food to skip granary and still get pop3 for settler spam. Tradition or liberty i think it s more than a good start in most cases

So i m sold on this big time.

So.....

I had reached 250 tourism, getting ready for olympic games, spamming hotels and stuff... And despite me bribing spain and every other civ to maintain a constant world war, i got DOWED by 4 civs simulatenously.

Needless to say that i had close to no units and i watched my world burn. Always nice to have all AIs enthusiastic about you and suddenly rip you out despite the fact you have nothing but green modifiers with them. (Aside from England who was mad at me being friend with polynesia)

Kinda pissed tbh as there is nothing to do to prevent this things from happening. Kinda sick when i see screens of people reaching 320+ victories with maybe 4 units on their land. Really wondering what makes the difference here even though the weird situation is probably the one where the AI doesnt attack when it's about to lose. But the carpet of doom she rolled at me ? seriously... And she probably bribed every other civs to Dow me... Nice to see England accept when they ve been at war with spain for something like 200 years and were mad at me when i was still friend with her back in the days...

I guess i wont see a victory on that DCL which after managing quietly the Hiawatha one makes me wanna die painfully lol.

I m feeling like cultural victory attracts more attention to you when SV remains stealthy when you just build parts and set them up all on the same turn, seems the AI doesnt see you coming.

Went all the end to olympics game just to see if i could have get it if i didnt get dowed and polynesia ended with 2500+ hammers in it. So i'm thinking i didnt stand a chance at all to win that game anyway as he would have spammed 400+ tourism for 20 turns and already had 40K culture.

Damn, was really thinking i was getting to this CV. But i guess, too little, waaaaaay too late

Now, i'll cry and then sleep

Score was 1215 raw, 1813 adjusted (#5, Winston Churchill). This was my 3½ attempt. Ended up being really kind of boring. Had one war with runaway, but had to give it up because of the CS allies. Tried to liberate Boudicca, but never got that close.

cazaderonus said:

Kinda sick when i see screens of people reaching 320+ victories with maybe 4 units on their land.

Click to expand...

My screenie will make you sad. My units were all across the channel. Production and money were good, so if my neighbors started acting up, it would have been okay.

beetle said:

Score was 1215 raw, 1813 adjusted (#5, Winston Churchill). This was my 3½ attempt. Ended up being really kind of boring. Had one war with runaway, but had to give it up because of the CS allies. Tried to liberate Boudicca, but never got that close.



My screenie will make you sad. My units were all across the channel. Production and money were good, so if my neighbors started acting up, it would have been okay.

Click to expand...

Yeah well that civ 5 lol.

But i m not givin up. I ll do the england dcl in a while and then do this one again with a SV or dom which i deal with much better. Oh and i ll make a major objective in crushing Spain no matter what. Payback will be a B missy

DomV on t325 - better late than never

stormtrooper412 said:

You simply have to start paying them off earlier...
Consentient very wisely noted that CSs are overlooked and that if you want many allies and/or a diplomatic win, start stocking influence much much earlier

Click to expand...

Actually, my emphasis on CS has nothing to do with going for a DiploV, just that if you have an ally for 100 turns, the total amount of benefit is vast.

There's nothing particularly wise about it. People are just loathed to dump 1000 gold at one time into a CS. But I do really well out of my CS alliances, and that's why I'm (slowly) preparing that part of my Domination guide.

The idea that it's sensible to stockpile gold and then buy them all at once is ludicrous. It costs far less to slowly develop them over the course of the game. Because I like units even if I want to be peaceful (like in the Korea ICL) I am able to do a ton of barb quests.

Again, another idea that must be vaporised is that on Deity, there are no barb quests after a certain time. People are just not looking hard enough if they think that.

cazaderonus said:

i got DOWED by 4 civs simulatenously....

Needless to say that i had close to no units and i watched my world burn.

Click to expand...

So build units next time. You threw away a win, by the looks of it.

Always nice to have all AIs enthusiastic about you and suddenly rip you out despite the fact you have nothing but green modifiers with them. (Aside from England who was mad at me being friend with polynesia)

Click to expand...

The AI are psychopaths and there is no way you can ever rely on them for anything. Self-reliance and preparedness, as IRL, are much better than trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Kinda pissed tbh as there is nothing to do to prevent this things from happening.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Replay, and this time build an army for defence. You will win, I am sure. A SV can be gotten on almost any map if you defend yourself adequately.

Kinda sick when i see screens of people reaching 320+ victories with maybe 4 units on their land.

Click to expand...

Well, there are also sub-T200 victories with 0 units. Doesn't mean to say that this is a good way to play all the time. Perhaps the player in question was pushing hard for a HOF-style quick victory, taking the risk and getting away with it? Or maybe they're just a much better player than you at diplomacy, economy, etc, and so don't have to worry about it AS MUCH. But the best way of defending yourself is still to build units.

If I am sure I will be DoW'd by let's say Monty, then building units will pay itself back anyway. He will march his army to their doom, and eventually I'll make peace for 30-50 GPT, which I'll get for enough time to make building that army, and ensuring my civ stands the test of time.

I m feeling like cultural victory attracts more attention to you when SV remains stealthy when you just build parts and set them up all on the same turn, seems the AI doesnt see you coming.

Click to expand...

It's nothing to do with attention and all to do with reliance on the AI. Winning a SV requires nothing of the AI. In fact, as you said, it works best when they completely ignore you. But CV is so AI-dependent that it's obviously the most difficult CV. Having OB, shared religion etc all depend a lot on AI choices. Which is why my favourite way to win is to play on Continents, wipe mine, and then concentrate on culture.

Now, i'll cry and then sleep

Click to expand...

Chin up. Next time build units and you'll be much better off.

cazaderonus, that was a tough loss. I learned my lessons though, and now I always have at least 5 units for defense. In the Indies DCL that I just submitted, there were times when I didn't really have anything more significant to build, money was good, happiness was even better etc so I cranked out pikes and then later I started massing Infantry.



Served him right for not wanting to open borders, the bastard

consentient said:

Actually, my emphasis on CS has nothing to do with going for a DiploV, just that if you have an ally for 100 turns, the total amount of benefit is vast.

There's nothing particularly wise about it. People are just loathed to dump 1000 gold at one time into a CS. But I do really well out of my CS alliances, and that's why I'm (slowly) preparing that part of my Domination guide.

The idea that it's sensible to stockpile gold and then buy them all at once is ludicrous. It costs far less to slowly develop them over the course of the game. Because I like units even if I want to be peaceful (like in the Korea ICL) I am able to do a ton of barb quests.

Again, another idea that must be vaporised is that on Deity, there are no barb quests after a certain time. People are just not looking hard enough if they think that.



So build units next time. You threw away a win, by the looks of it.



The AI are psychopaths and there is no way you can ever rely on them for anything. Self-reliance and preparedness, as IRL, are much better than trying to reason with the unreasonable.



Wrong. Replay, and this time build an army for defence. You will win, I am sure. A SV can be gotten on almost any map if you defend yourself adequately.



Well, there are also sub-T200 victories with 0 units. Doesn't mean to say that this is a good way to play all the time. Perhaps the player in question was pushing hard for a HOF-style quick victory, taking the risk and getting away with it? Or maybe they're just a much better player than you at diplomacy, economy, etc, and so don't have to worry about it AS MUCH. But the best way of defending yourself is still to build units.

If I am sure I will be DoW'd by let's say Monty, then building units will pay itself back anyway. He will march his army to their doom, and eventually I'll make peace for 30-50 GPT, which I'll get for enough time to make building that army, and ensuring my civ stands the test of time.



It's nothing to do with attention and all to do with reliance on the AI. Winning a SV requires nothing of the AI. In fact, as you said, it works best when they completely ignore you. But CV is so AI-dependent that it's obviously the most difficult CV. Having OB, shared religion etc all depend a lot on AI choices. Which is why my favourite way to win is to play on Continents, wipe mine, and then concentrate on culture.



Chin up. Next time build units and you'll be much better off.

Click to expand...

I find your tone a bit patronizing...

First, i was going for a Cultural Victory, may be good to read properly before commenting on half of what i'm saying. And yes, Cultural seems to drag more attention to you from AIs.

Second, in Civ 5 it's better to build units ? Whoah, thanks for the tip. But it's a rather common play when searching for good finish time to rely on bribe and fast building your way to victory. Aka all the wins down here in this forum with close to no unit at final turn. And for information, when i say no units it's still 4 artilleries, 3 machine guns, and 2 battleships in the most exposed cities with walls.

Third, again if you had actually red what i posted you would have see that this "win i throw away" wasnt that much of guaranteed win. But i guess it's better to fast comment than actually take time to analyze what's been said. Regarding polynesia own tourism + culture + massive prod making olympics close to unreachable.

Any time taken to build units would have been time i didnt have. Slower hotels, slower internet, slower everything. You know ? Coz in Civ 5 you have to build important buildings to win

And yeah i'll chin up, pretty sure i can load back a good chunk of turns and go for a late SV (which unlike culture leaves much time for building units during late game).

Bottom line, next time please refrain from being THAT guy who teaches obvious lessons without even talking about the right thing.

Don't get all salty, man. Thing is, a game where you aim on a fast finish and your lands are virtually undefended are always treading on thin ice, sometimes that gamble doesn't pay off, bribes are a no-go and I'm pretty sure we've had many restarts where a late multiple DoW is pretty much KO