If you could bring anything back from a past Civ game what would it be

- Apostolic Palace plus U.N and AP resolutions
- Government (actually, Night's version is perfectly fine, I love that mechanic)
- Useful Advisors like in Civ 3 (where you see them EVERYWHERE, and actually tell you if an trade deal is going to get accepted or not)
- Cultural flipping (slightly annoying, but if I think about it, it could be fun)
- Better trading, including rivers, road between nations etc.
- Era-specific music, theme, artstyle and civ leaderscreens
- Victory type for Science like in Civ 4 BTS (by the end of BTS, it came with one of the EPs)
- Defeat/Victory screen like in Civ 3 where you get berated or insulted by the other nations :D xD.

That's all I can think of for now.
 
I think he means when an AI pops up and offers you deal or a trade or something, in civ IV you could see their attitude, in civ V you have to back out and then check the diplo, and the try to re-enter negotiations. And the AI civ will not always accept the same deal they offered you after this.

No, whenever the leader screen pops up, including the AI offering deals, you'll see whether it's friendly, hostile etc. and can mouse over it to see why. Not sure what else you could be referring to.
 
I miss most the immersive way trade worked in civ4, when rivers and coast connected cities after certain techs, rivers connected resourses, resources had to be connected, more things to trade such as health resourses etc, trade routes per city that gave more if it traded with a city overseas or from a different civ...
Its just too simple and easy in civ5. just make the improvement and you get the resource. No connecting anything with rivers. No need to have a road or coastal trade route if you want to sell another civ a resource etc.

i liked the idea of connecting cities civs traded with through rivers and by connecting all cities with roads it was always a good idea

but connecting all your resources with roads would ruin the new combat system, the concept of terrain advantages and disadvantages would be ruined by all the roads connecting to farms, mines, plantations and all that
 
i liked the idea of connecting cities civs traded with through rivers and by connecting all cities with roads it was always a good idea

but connecting all your resources with roads would ruin the new combat system, the concept of terrain advantages and disadvantages would be ruined by all the roads connecting to farms, mines, plantations and all that

It would ruin your economy...
 

Road maintenance cost. A good idea and necessary to prevent trade route income, which is already high with large empires (especially those with Machu Picchu and Commerce), spiralling out of control, but forcing road links to every resource would be too punitive. I suspect that's the major reason this was dropped.
 
In Civ1 a road gave +1 Trade (yield) on most tiles and so supported tax income, luxuries and Science. Rivers and Coast-tiles also gave +1 Trade since they are historically suited to support trading. Democracy increased the Trade (yield), a railroad additionally increased Trade and Production depending on tiles. They definetely paid for themselves since they produced a trade surplus. They were expensive in construction since you had to use a settler to build them. (In Civ1 there were no workers.)

In Civ5 they aborted the old system of Trade (yield) so in the new system they would have to add kind of a mix of fractions of Gold, happiness and science for the road which they couldn't do. They could have added just +1 Gold but this is not the same as Trade (yield).

It is natural to have roads around a city going to all neighbouring cities connecting traderoutes and ressources but in a tile-based game it looks silly. They didn't find a way to make it good looking. Some of the road-pieces are still buggy.
For a 1upt-strategy-game, a map covered with road / railroad-tiles is a game-breaker since roads / railroads remove the terrains movement penalty.

I'm sorry to say this but Civ5 developer probably didn't understand the old Trade (yield) system. Otherwise they wouldn't have removed it. And todays Civ5-players are probably too young to know it (since Civ1 is about 20 years old). Civ1 - Civ4 were games about Trade (yield). By removing Trade and replacing it, they implemented Science as directly scaled with population. The new Gold income from Traderoutes is directly scaled with population. They had to invent ugly tradingposts as a Gold-tile-improvement. They had to invent (and limit) happiness ressources. They had to invent Research Agreements.
 
Roads cost maintence, (1 gold) Railroad costs (2 gold), meaning if you build road in every direction (1 tile) it's gonna cost about 6 gold, and 12 gold for railroads.

im not saying all resources are connected, but for both domestic and foreign cities to trade with one another, that roads should be connected, the trade with both other nations and your own should be considered and automatically give you access to other trade routes as every nation would be connected to one another, increasing trade routes

but a nation should only have to pay for roads within their nations and naturally, other nations workers cant build roads in foreign nations

then again, who would pay for no mans land roads?
 
im not saying all resources are connected, but for both domestic and foreign cities to trade with one another, that roads should be connected, the trade with both other nations and your own should be considered and automatically give you access to other trade routes as every nation would be connected to one another, increasing trade routes

but a nation should only have to pay for roads within their nations and naturally, other nations workers cant build roads in foreign nations

then again, who would pay for no mans land roads?

I was not refering to foregin routes, I was refering to connecting each resource via a road.
 
What I would bring back if I could raise the numbers of hours in a day is foreign trading. (seriously, 24h is not enough when modding and keeping a life is involved)

Well, I found a few free hours... :D

First version of the resulting mod is here : Foreign Trade Routes
 
- The AI able to put forward deals about luxury resources.
- The ''world'' view.
- ...And probably some other details I can't remember right now.
 
I'm sorry to say this but Civ5 developer probably didn't understand the old Trade (yield) system. Otherwise they wouldn't have removed it.

The problem with this kind of argument is that it relies on looking at things in isolation rather than in the context of overall changes to the game, as well as not taking account of changes in game direction the designers had in mind. Like it or not, the Civ V designers were not trying to design a game that played identically to previous versions of Civ, and to a large extent it was things that had remained unchanged since the game's inception that were the target of change. It's not that the designers don't understand the mechanic, any more than they don't understand local happiness or the slider, it's that the very things that have been constants of the Civ experience have resulted in the same strategies over and over again, and indeed the same issues that are widely perceived as problematic - such as ICS, and the general overwhelming dominance of large empires over small ones.

In the case of trade:

In the first instance, the commerce mechanic did not produce fixed yields, it produced yields that varied with the allocations of the slider. You can't usefully represent this in a slider-less system like Civ V; once the slider goes, yield-based commerce has to. You can't, say, give roads a fixed income of 50% gold and 50% science.

In the second, consider that many of the changes to the Civ engine have been explicitly designed to make smaller empires more competitive. Trade, by definition, benefits large empires more than small ones. If science, the game's most important resource, is tied to trade, then larger empires necessarily gain a massive research advantage over smaller ones. ICS wasn't a popular strategy because you physically could spam cities all over the map, it was a popular strategy because spamming cities all over the map worked better than any alternative. If you want to curtail this, you have to address that by giving larger empires less of a runaway advantage, not just by fiddling with maintenance costs. All the latter does is to achieve what Civ IV did - instead of ICS, you had "build as many cities as you possibly can until you hit maintenance limits" - which is basically just the same strategy with fewer cities. Civ V gives active rewards for playing to maximise city development and happiness (and so have smaller empires), rather than encouraging play that just keeps you at 1 or 0 happiness the whole game with the maximum number of cities you can sustain.

Tying science to population directly, promoting buildings that scale directly with population size, and having effects like National College that relate to the science output of the city where they're built, are all mechanisms intended to make smaller empires viable as research powerhouses. Removing research yield from trade routes is part of that design. All of which suggests that the designers understood exactly what effect trade yield had on the game - and that they wanted to change it.

And todays Civ5-players are probably too young to know it (since Civ1 is about 20 years old). Civ1 - Civ4 were games about Trade (yield). By removing Trade and replacing it, they implemented Science as directly scaled with population. The new Gold income from Traderoutes is directly scaled with population.

Precisely - again favouring city development over city spamming.

They had to invent ugly tradingposts as a Gold-tile-improvement.

They just turned anything that used to produce commerce into something that produced gold, and in this case changed the name.

They had to invent (and limit) happiness ressources.

Not sure what you mean by this. Happiness resources existed in Civs III and IV, and are no more limited than in that game - each type of resource only gave a bonus to any city once, however many copies you have. They don't have effects only on cities connected by roads any more because happiness doesn't work at city-scale - luxuries have global effects because happiness is global, the same reason Colosseums have global rather than local effects now.

They had to invent Research Agreements
.

These replace tech trading - I'm not sure how this relates to your argument.
 
@PhilBowles

The slider in Civ1 was a very powerfull tool. The only ressources in Civ1 were Food, Production and Trade. The Trade income was the budget and was divided into Science, Tax (Gold) and Luxuries (Happiness) according to the Players slider settings. The slider allowed to react on circumstances and quickly set a national focus for your empire depending on strategy and circumstances :
- Focus on Science to get access to new buildings, wonders, military units, government types sooner.
- Focus on Gold to rush buy military units or new buildings or to raise your income to pay for the upkeep of buildings, units.
- Focus on Happiness to counter Unhappiness due to lack of happiness buildings after population growth or to support population growth. More population means more production, more Trade. You could also counter war-weariness with Luxuries.

I miss the slider in Civ5. Without slider you have less options for game-play, e.g. to counter temporary Unhappiness. The slider is in Civ1 - Civ4 and it is a brilliant but simple game mechanic which contributed a lot to the fame of civilization.

By installing (up to 3) trade-routes to other cities with high trade income, the trade income of every city in Civ1 could be significantly increased, and so the trade-route also increased Science and Tax Income, which is equivalent to a (turn based) Economic and Science Agreement. In Civ4, open borders and trade routes usually generated up to 50% of national commerce (trade) income.

So by having trade routes between cities, you don't need to implement extra Research Agreements. The trade routes in Civ1 had revenues based on the two cities' real trade income, the Civ5 Research-Agreements on the opposite grant fantastic Research Results which are only based on Tech costs of Techs which are ready for research idependent of the two nations national Science output.

The new Civ5 trade routes actually represent a national tax system where all cities connected to capital pay around 1-1,25 Gold per pop per turn, completely independent of the cities economical value etc. The benefit of big cities is that the road / railroad costs to connect the city per pop is cheaper. The trade routes in Civ1 had revenues based on the two cities' real trade income.

... such as ICS

ICS is quite natural.
It is natural, that a growing world population sooner or later will claim or settle all habitable and profitable parts of the planet. Todays world is completely partioned into countries with borders. In Civ-games population is represented as cities. Territory is claimed by building cities like placing stones on GO-board. And more territory often means more ressources. (Add national territory and diplomatic borders and you don't need that many cities in sibiria.) I would expect the world-map to fill with cities as long as people can make a living where they settle, even if the small cities do not contribute anything to tax or Science. Founding new cities / colonies is a natural process. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity for ICS in history.)
(In history colonies and new cities often were more or less independent from the motherland but had intense trade relations with it and were more likely to form defensive alliances against common enemies, etc. due to common origin and culture. In a Civ game this would result in many small independent, neutral greek cities around the coast of mediterraneum sea.)

Usually the more profitable / habitable regions in reach were settled first. Especially before entering industrial age, most people were just living from agricultural labour and every population growth forced the surplus people to emigrate to new habitable regions.

With industrialisation age, rural depopulation started. (Change the game mechanics to a Colonization-like game where you can freely move your population and food surplus and you will probably concentrate pop in your most developed tall cities where they are more productive (and have a higher salary) compared to the smaller, less developed cities.)

The modern developed world benefits from Free Trade, Globalization and modern Logistics. Cities can grow to very tall Metropolitan Regions where millions of people can live and work while food and ressources from all over the world are transported to these tall cities in exchange of consumer products and services. A global war or war between industrial nations would cost everybody much more in wealth and prosperity than could be won by either side so the industrial developed countries abstained from maior wars after WW2. (Wars against smaller, isolated countries as Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Algeria, Irak, etc. do not count.)


The strength of ICS in Civ-games is based on (unrealistic) simplistic game mechanics as
- the free city tile production,
- the fact that population growth is based on food production,
- the fact that small cities grow faster than huge cities,
- the fact that there are no extra costs based on distance for transporting exploited ressources or collecting taxes or contributing to Science or installing a local government.
- the fact that most ressources are just additive, e.g. every single Science Point adds to Research, every single Gold coin adds to treasury.
- the fact that each new city is automatically added to your empire
- the fact that empires in Civ are stable and do not occasionally split into different fragments when reaching a certain size.

Effect of ICS and size of world population in Civ is still limited by available land-mass and Food-production (if you ignore the fantastic food production of maritime city states which is based on number of cities). The AI always seems to go for ICS except on small islands maps where they have problems to explore / settle.

Success of ICS in Civ1 was based on choosing the right government type, since corruption was limiting the benefit of more cities. Democracy and Communism helped against corruption.


... the general overwhelming dominance of large empires over small ones

Dominance is based on elements like effeciency (corruption), organisation (government), Tech Level, Ressources, Population-size, Industrial Production, economy / trade partners, but also military allies and global outposts / military bases.

In Civ your economy, research and production usually scale with the number of developed cities. The more developed cities you have, the faster you can research new techs and the more superior military units you can build, etc. But this is caused by the simplistic, unrealistic game mechanics for scientific research in Civ. In real life, You can't just add science points of millions of different people to get a new tech. (See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=460497 for suggestions how to limit science progress in ICS.) In history, scientific progress was not guaranteed. Allthough there were society types which supported scientific research more than others. If one your neighbours had a new tech you could try to copy / reengineer or buy it. If you were unlucky, he would use the Tech against you.

History is filled with examples of large empires dominating smaller countries. However people usually remember the exceptions :
- Alexander (conquered persia with superior strategy and disciplined, experienced troops.)
- The Mongol invasions ...
- The Viking invasions ...
- The British Empire (success was based on their advance in modern weapons as well as their superior navy which gave them a naval monopol to the seas (as well as organisational / diplomatic skills to exploit the colonies at low costs).)

- The dominant powers today are USA, China, India, Russia ... maybe Europe if they would form the United States of Europe. However due to international trade and economic dependencies as well as WW2 experience, high military costs and nuclear weapons they avoid to start maior war compared to the maior powers 100 years ago.
 
I'm sure I could think of many things if I really put some time into it but the one glaring thing that I really miss is airports for moving about units quickly from one continent to the next.
 
I hadn't heard that that was the reasoning. Having just been on the receiving of the most (read: only) effective AI naval invasion I've seen - a large invasion of several artillery, infantry and tanks backed by four destroyers. And with air support. And then the same again against another city - I realised that transports fundamentally don't work with the tactical combat system: you'd need to move the transport a hex for every unit or two you want to offload (depending on landing site terrain), since they can't disembark on the same hex due to the absence of stacking, something that wasn't an issue in Civ IV - the stack could just move out of the boat onto land in the same formation.

This would be a severe vulnerability for any naval invasion. It undoubtedly would make the AI still less effective - maybe that's what was meant? It would help the AI manage naval invasions in the Civ V combat system more effectively than it could with transports, not that it would help relative to Civ IV.

Disagree. A proper TCS ( even with the 1 uph rule) works extremely well if done correctly. Transports are supposed to be in the center of your task force screened by FF's and DD's. The heavies are supposed to closer to them in order to provide air cover and NGFS. Amphib ops are supposed to be well coordinated and involve quite a few various assets, hence a TCS is well suited for transports. It's just that Civ 5 doesn't have a very good TCS, at least IMO.
 
@PhilBowles

The slider in Civ1 was a very powerfull tool. The only ressources in Civ1 were Food, Production and Trade. The Trade income was the budget and was divided into Science, Tax (Gold) and Luxuries (Happiness) according to the Players slider settings. The slider allowed to react on circumstances and quickly set a national focus for your empire depending on strategy and circumstances :
- Focus on Science to get access to new buildings, wonders, military units, government types sooner.
- Focus on Gold to rush buy military units or new buildings or to raise your income to pay for the upkeep of buildings, units.
- Focus on Happiness to counter Unhappiness due to lack of happiness buildings after population growth or to support population growth. More population means more production, more Trade. You could also counter war-weariness with Luxuries.

I miss the slider in Civ5. Without slider you have less options for game-play, e.g. to counter temporary Unhappiness. The slider is in Civ1 - Civ4 and it is a brilliant but simple game mechanic which contributed a lot to the fame of civilization.

And one that became increasingly redundant as the series went on. It was designed around Civ 1, which as you noted had no luxury resources and also had few happiness structures. It also had gold as a relevant resource, since you could buy production directly as you can in Civ V. By the time Civ IV came around the element of strategy allowed by the slider was more or less gone - tying espionage and culture to it was good, but neither competed with science and gold was only useful for maintenance. Which reduced the slider to simply maximising science output and occasionally shifting the slider to tax while you built more markets/banks, before sliding it back again. It's hard to see how this quick fix mechanic is more strategic than having to plan your markets and banks in advance.

By installing (up to 3) trade-routes to other cities with high trade income, the trade income of every city in Civ1 could be significantly increased, and so the trade-route also increased Science and Tax Income, which is equivalent to a (turn based) Economic and Science Agreement. In Civ4, open borders and trade routes usually generated up to 50% of national commerce (trade) income.

This is exactly my point. Tying science to trade means science always benefits from large empires. Therefore all empires are large. Therefore the game ultimately has one overall type of strategy with variations in build orders within it - expand, expand, expand.

So by having trade routes between cities, you don't need to implement extra Research Agreements.

Which is akin to pointing out that by having trade routes between cities, you don't need to implement tech trading. Civ V is not designed around a tech path that the developers suddenly discovered couldn't be completed in the timescale of a normal game so they added RAs to compensate. RAs are in the game for the same reason tech trading was - because science is so fundamental to the game that it wouldn't make sense to have a diplomacy system which doesn't offer an option to accelerate science output.

ICS is quite natural.

Whether it's natural or not is beside the point - this is a game and it's an unpopular game mechanic, sufficiently so that Civ IV designers attempted to actively penalise it, and its apparent reappearance in pre-patch Civ V caused sufficient complaints that happiness effects and city placement limits were changed to prevent it. It's also extremely limiting strategically to be forced to spam settlers at every opportunity, and simply boring to manage a hundred cities in precisely the same way you'd manage three and duplicate the same structures in each in order to curtail their unhappiness and health while maximising their commerce output. It would be natural for chess to have thousands more pawns than it does per king, but it wouldn't be a better game for having thousands of pawns that need moving individually.

The option to build smaller empires and remain viable is important gamewise in a system where the AI is programmed to spam cities, because it gives the player a way of winning other than just copying the AI's strategy and doing it better/faster. A smaller Civ V empire can overcome a much larger rival empire.
 
Therefore all empires are large. Therefore the game ultimately has one overall type of strategy with variations in build orders within it - expand, expand, expand.

Whether it's natural or not is beside the point - this is a game and it's an unpopular game mechanic,

The option to build smaller empires and remain viable is important gamewise in a system where the AI is programmed to spam cities, because it gives the player a way of winning other than just copying the AI's strategy and doing it better/faster. A smaller Civ V empire can overcome a much larger rival empire.

I don't really see the philosophic problems you have here. Civ always was and still is about growth and expansion. Real world power always was and still is about growth and expansion. The British Empire, USA, USSR, China and modern era India are living proof for that. If your empire is big you have the most scientists, merchants, soldiers, resources and whatever - and if you don't mess up things completely chances are quite good you're one of the leading world powers. Nerving this logical, natural and realisitc approach so much that it does not work any more - for gameplay reasons! - from my point of view would kill the game, or at least turn it into something I would not be interested in. The interesting question should not be: "should I expand or not", the question should be (and allready is): "how and when do I expand". If growth and expansion have no benefits or actually hurt - people would start playing OCC. I am not sure that is the game you really want to play. And if you do, you allready have the option...
 
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