Whats the point of Jet Fighters?

Gucumatz · Jul 11, 2012

So I was playing a Multiplayer game and got to my first stealth bomber war post gods and kings.

Anyways I built a few Jet Fighters to see if they did anything against Stealths once again - and they still did nothing. I don't see a point to Jet Fighters as soon as you get stealths you have ungodly range but there isn't a counter to them at all. Stealths completely ignore Jet Fighter Interception and Mobile Sams on the ground with no damage at all.

The Stealth Bomber rush still decides games.

While Nukes are still too powerful as well... in theory there are counters to it as well (Bomb shelters and in theory MAD).

Stealths on the other hand can kill anything without having a gameplay counter at all. Which brings me to the point again. What is the point of a modern fighter plane if it does nothing against the most modern equivalent bomber? Triplanes are effective vs great war bombers, fighters are effective vs bombers, but Jet Fighters do nothing vs stealths. It just doesn't make sense why (From a gameplay perspective).

zeock9 · Jul 11, 2012

I'd say that is a rather exact representation of the current world affairs at this point in time;
the US, being the only power in the world in possession of such stealth technologies, have no opponents that can stop their B-2 bomber squadrons.

Whether such an accurate portrayal of the modern warfare was an intended part of game mechanics, and more importantly, whether they are engaging and fun or not, remains to be seen however.

After all, we are playing a game, not a war simulation.

Malachi256 · Jul 11, 2012

Nuke their airfield-city.

smallfish · Jul 11, 2012

So that there will be a definitive tech upgrade instead of relying on prop driven Fighters?

I agree they should make the graphic less like a F22, and more of an ole fashioned... F86 Sabre. Much more in line with the art deco shtick they have going in this iteration of Civilization.

Malachi256 said:
Nuke their airfield-city.

That only works if they don't have Bomb Shelters.

Also in my experience, its terribly wasteful to spend your SB stacks against a lone SAM or two because those things are tough (against air units).

grandad1982 · Jul 11, 2012

zeock9 said:
I'd say that is a rather exact representation of the current world affairs at this point in time;
the US, being the only power in the world in possession of such stealth technologies, have no opponents that can stop their B-2 bomber squadrons.

Whether such an accurate portrayal of the modern warfare was an intended part of game mechanics, and more importantly, whether they are engaging and fun or not, remains to be seen however.

After all, we are playing a game, not a war simulation.

To be fair its not like the USA has fought a war against anyone who would be in a position to counter them anyway. I don't see the Taliban fielding high tech fighter jets

I do have to agree though that from a game play point of view Jets should counter Stealths or there should be a promo they can earn that allows them to intercept them.

I seem to recall a similar thread about A-Bombs (not ICBMS). Trouble is if you intersept an A-Bomb it won't die in one hit so will still get to its target.

Adjuvant · Jul 11, 2012

I find a comparison of "superpower's military strength" vs "guerilla tactic" is a bad match. I understand your humor, grandad but "no one" is going to be able to always effectively counter suicide bombers and hill/cave people.

"Face to face", army vs army, you're mostly right; very few in the world have a chance against the USA's overwhelming technology and tactical capability. The last time someone "thought" they had a chance was 1991. Iraq was the "4th military in the world", and they lost in a matter of days once the "ground campaign" rolled, with hundreds of thousands of troops surrendering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Iraq_war

Wars against the USA aren't about attrition, they're about "command and control". If you can't communicate with you units in the field, you can't really do jack but watch them run around in circles and get blown up. Add to that state of the art munitions and targeting systems and well-trained volunteer (non-conscription) personnel, and you get the modern epitome of war.

Putmalk · Jul 11, 2012

If Stealths are going to be uncounterable (realism?) then they also better cost a helluva lot of time to build (these things are REALLY expensive).

On a really unrelated note, does anyone think an AC-130 is missing from this game?

DutchJob · Jul 11, 2012

zeock9 said:
I'd say that is a rather exact representation of the current world affairs at this point in time;
the US, being the only power in the world in possession of such stealth technologies, have no opponents that can stop their B-2 bomber squadrons.

sorry, off topic:

Maybe NATO should take on Russia for a change and not 3rd world piss poor states like Afghanistan.
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on topic:

yeah, as it stands the jets are useless. you only need them if the others have them.

FeiLing · Jul 11, 2012

I like how upgrading a ww2 bomber to a stealth bomber costs like 20 gold. Realism.

hbar · Jul 11, 2012

FeiLing said:
I like how upgrading a ww2 bomber to a stealth bomber costs like 20 gold. Realism.

To put that in context, 20 gold is 1/20th of a Library. :crazyeye:

prince_caspian · Jul 11, 2012

But I find the SB rush to be unviable anymore - they don't do much damage to cities or units by themselves so you still need a lot of land and/or naval support no matter what. I guess that in a way, makes JFs useless by extension but it's not the JF's fault.

Wuddel · Jul 11, 2012

Putmalk said:
On a really unrelated note, does anyone think an AC-130 is missing from this game?

Units in Civ are rarely that specific. They only represent a type. Except the UU maybe.

Well I guess in MP thats true. Against the AI their counter to Stealth Bombers is "winning the game before you".

GenjiKhan · Jul 11, 2012

Stealth Bombers aren't that invisible as its name claim to be . Perhaps,instead being totally uninterceptable,they could,instead,having another promotion,which gives them a % chance of avoid interception .

Disgustipated · Jul 11, 2012

Can't put stealth bombers on carriers, but you can put jet fighters on carriers. So I'd say jet fighters are really only good for basing on carriers.

Stealth Bombers aren't that invisible as its name claim to be . Perhaps,instead being totally uninterceptable,they could,instead,having another promotion,which gives them a % chance of avoid interception .

This. They aren't completely invisible in real life. During both wars in Iraq we knocked out radar stations with cruise missiles before we even risked bringing one of those over the country. So they've never really been "tested". We only brought them in when everything was "safe". Hardly a real world test.

Scarpa · Jul 11, 2012

Disgustipated said:
Can't put stealth bombers on carriers, but you can put jet fighters on carriers. So I'd say jet fighters are really only good for basing on carriers.

This. They aren't completely invisible in real life. During both wars in Iraq we knocked out radar stations with cruise missiles before we even risked bringing one of those over the country. So they've never really been "tested". We only brought them in when everything was "safe". Hardly a real world test.

In the first Gulf War F117s were used both to take out SAM sites and to go into Baghdad which still had excellent SAM and AAA coverage, taking no losses. I'd say Civ 5 mimics real life fairly well. Still would like a counter to Stealth Bombers in game though.

Peacemongerer · Jul 11, 2012

I guess they are just good for sweeping the area for ground-based interceptors (Not sure if that's needed w/ Stealth Fighters).

Hitman Zeus · Jul 11, 2012

So far, across Civ III, Civ IV and Civ V, I haven't seen major powers with access to jet fighters or bombers actually use them against each other, or for that matter me. I have seen the use of massive anti aircraft guns against me, during be "shock and awe" softening up the defences but never have I been countered with air-strikes of any kind.

And that have been on Normal and Hard.

Does the AI really not want to use Fighters?

Barghaest · Jul 11, 2012

AI was using triplanes/GWB vs my fleet one game (had a few of their triplanes intercept my GWBs too)... but by the time we upgraded to Jets/SB everyone left me alone. A few times I got close enough to Inca/Sweden duking it out to see them using Jets vs each other... (air strikes, air sweeps and interceptions... but no touchdowns

).

Laurwin · Jul 11, 2012

On one hand stealth is stealth to radar detection. On the other hand. Once the enemy fighter pilot has got his Eyeball Mark1s on the stealth bomber, then it reverts from stealth to a giant black doritos chip in the sky. (Some air force expert actually said that in dogfights of the future!) Easy prey, if the fighter pilot has ammunition in the guns.

Maybe it should be able to be intercepted, but only with highly interception promoted jet fighters? On the other hand the fighter sweep in-game is all about patrolling the skies on the prowl for bandits in the air(of course civ5 is turnbased but still...)

VikingHaag · Jul 11, 2012

zeock9 said:
I'd say that is a rather exact representation of the current world affairs at this point in time;
the US, being the only power in the world in possession of such stealth technologies, have no opponents that can stop their B-2 bomber squadrons.

Whether such an accurate portrayal of the modern warfare was an intended part of game mechanics, and more importantly, whether they are engaging and fun or not, remains to be seen however.

After all, we are playing a game, not a war simulation.

The U.S. in the last 30 years only went at war with countries who bought the ghetto version of 20-30 years old equipment.

Also, the B-2 can be hard to detect, but if someone spots it visually a fighter can simply stay 500 feet behind and take it down with a cannon burst.
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Whats the point of Jet Fighters?

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