Cavaleiros Diplomacy

I'm thinking they've probably discussed this already with Kaz, and are planning on getting Feudalism from them. They'll probably just stall us if we ask for a tech exchange.

Still, it might be worth trying. We should definitely figure out exactly WHAT techs we want, though, rather than giving an open-ended offer.
 
Sent the following message to Cav. (Sorry, I meant to make a draft but clicked "send" by accident. Ah well, should be no harm done. :) )

Greetings Cavaleiros!

A technological breakthrough is now on the horizon for us - Feudalism will be arriving in the near future! We would like to offer you the opportunity to trade for this technology. Are you interested? :)

It appears that it will be difficult to make an even trade at present, as the techs that you have above us seem to be limited to Mathematics, Polytheism and Masonry at present. However, it is possible that you may be about to obtain something of value that might allow a more balanced trade for Feudalism. May we be so bold as to enquire about your present course of research, so that we can discuss the possibilities for trade?

We hope to hear from you soon. :)

Regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn
 
The longer we wait, the more chance that Cav will arrange a deal with Kaz. ;)

But either way, I'm expecting it'll be unlikely that we'll be able to make a deal with Cav. Worth a shot though, at least. :)
 
Chat with Cav. Basically, they were trying to enquire about the Feudalism deal between Kaz and us (to which I responded that it was none of their business and we'd only talk to Kaz). Two things became obvious though: Cav was definitely expecting to get Feudalism from Kaz (hence the lack of any reply to our message 2 weeks ago), and Kaz forwarded SANCTA's message to Cav.

It speaks volumes about Kaz and Cav's relationship that a Cav citizen will straight-out ask us about a deal that has nothing to do with them. Of course, it's nothing we didn't already know, but still interesting. ;)

Spoiler :
Morgan says:
Hey Lord
Morgan says:
or can i call you Parkin?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
hi
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
either's fine
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
what's up?
Morgan says:
your on team saturn?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
remind me who this is?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep
Morgan says:
KingMorgan
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
which team are you on?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ok
Morgan says:
Cavelieros
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ok
Morgan says:
you have a tech deal with Kaz, alpha and IW for Feudlism?
Morgan says:
will team saturn honour this deal?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That is between Saturn and Kaz
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'm not sure why Cav thinks they have the right to enquire into deals not negotiated with them?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(Let alone why you know about them in the first place)
Morgan says:
SANCTA told us about this deal, i could say the same about them.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Huh?
Morgan says:
You are aware SANCTA and Kaz are at war?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
So I've heard
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
So I don't understand your question.
Morgan says:
Bear with me one moment, i'm checking something on the forum
Morgan says:
your aware we have a tech agreement with Kaz
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I've noticed you, Kaz and MS trading techs like crazy, yes.
Morgan says:
It has been stated to us by a 3rd party that Saturn will not honour the trade agreement that was made with Kaz, if this is the case, then does that mean team saturn is allied with SANCTA?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That is absolutely none of your business. Seriously, this comes across as rather rude: you heard some rumour from someone else concerning two other teams, and now you enquire directly about that team's tech agreements. We will talk to Kaz only about deals concerning Kaz, and not some third party.
Morgan says:
i apoligize i do not mean to be rude or poke my nose into private business.
Morgan says:
but when another team claims to speak for saturn you will apprciate that team Cav wish clairifcation from the team concerned
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That's okay. I'm not sure how familiar you are with these games; it's just usually accepted that you negotiate with a team directly and not through rumours and some third party.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Again, we will talk to Kaz if Kaz wish to talk to us, but not you. You have absolutely nothing to do with our initial deal.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Of course, you might be expecting the tech to be passed on from Kaz, but that is between Kaz and you.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I urge you to communicate with the right people to avoid causing offence in future.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(Sorry if this comes across as rather formal, but it's necessary.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You can't expect to enquire into deals that have nothing to do with you. You do not speak for your ally, no matter how close you are.
Morgan says:
Again i apolgize, the deal between you and Kaz is your business, i am not really concerned with wheather it goes through or not. What really concerns me is why Team SANCTA believe they can speak for you, that rather than any trade deal is my primary aim of speaking to you.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
What message did SANCTA send to you?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I am curious to know why you think they speak for us
Morgan says:
Becasue they claim to know your thoughts and future actions regarding your tech trading and poltical alignement
Morgan says:
anyhow, this conversation has taken a differnent course to what i'd thought. Apoligies for putting you on the spot and asking difficult questions and possilbly inappropiate questions.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Well, I'd like to see an actual quote... otherwise it's all just secondhand rumour and whispers...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That's ok
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Hope I didn't scare you off or anything
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Happy to talk with you about any Saturn-Cav deals
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I just wasn't expecting you to quiz me on non-Cav related business
Morgan says:
No probs, battle lines have been drawn it would seem, every team needs to know which side of that line they should be on.
Morgan says:
I think Cav will not trade with saturn until the situation is clearer
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
The battle is far from us... we'd prefer to avoid confrontation in the forseeable future.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But of course, you wouldn't trade with us anyway. (We did try to initiate diplomacy several times, but only got silence...)
Morgan says:
really, thats odd. we are keen to trade with you last i heard
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Kind of difficult to trade when you seem to have already jumped way into the tech lead.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Well, we got no response to our last few messages regarding Feudalism...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But then I suspect you discussed that with your closer tech partners.
Morgan says:
perhaps.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
What other reason would there be to ignore us?
Morgan says:
has your team been ignored? it's not intentional i can assure you.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We kind of feel that way...
Morgan says:
Rest assured Saturn has much discussion recently
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
It's easy to feel shunned when all the other teams are rocketing ahead in score...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But it hasn't been discussed with us...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Presumably it's not discussion for our ears
Morgan says:
i think current war will shake things up a bit. Don't worry it's all good disscusion.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Well I hope some good diplomacy will come from this good discussion... diplomatic channels have been silent from your end for at least a month, I believe
Morgan says:
I will feed that back to the team, We hope Saturn will remain netural like the Caveleiros during these silly little border spats.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We have no desire for war in the forseeable future.
Morgan says:
Lets hope Kaz feel the same, i'm sure there is a great proverb about the victim of broken agreements bribing people to give the robber a good beating.
Morgan says:
Can't acually think of one though.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You're not very subtle with your threats.
Morgan says:
please don't take it as threat, i'm in no postion to make them or to carry them out!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I suggest you don't make them then
Morgan says:
cheerfully withdrawn.
 
I don't see any particular reason to. They won't lose out on much (if any) commerce from it, and it will only irritate them. No need to make enemies just for the sake of it. :)
 
Talked to oyzar of Cav last night. Managed to get out of him that they're researching Civil Service. Suggested the possibility of a trade - CS for Feudalism, perhaps with some extra gold or something - and he said he'd put it to the team. I doubt anything much will happen, but it certainly wouldn't be a bad deal for us (with Bureaucracy). Maybe Cav will be more interested in the trade once they know for sure that they won't be getting Feudalism from Kaz anytime soon.

Only thing is, on the off chance that they're interested and we go through with the trade, what's to stop them passing Feudalism straight on to Kaz? We'd have to make them agree not to pass on the tech or something (but then they'd get us to agree to something similar).

On a side note, if we managed to get CS from Cav, it'd actually be a strong argument for SANCTA bulbing Machinery, so that we could get Macemen very early. That actually would be quite powerful...
 
How serious was Oyzar? It seems bit unlikely trade to me. If they do it, I would also finalize Feudalism trade with Kazs. This way we don't had to betray Kazs. We might deliver Feudalism maybe a bit late to them, but we've good excuse to delay trade as long as they are in war with SANCTA. It is also probable that Feudalism will go to Kazs through Cavs anyway. This has also additional benefit that we don't need to research Maths ourselves.

Any time table for Civil Service?
 
I don't think he was that serious... it came up in conversation though, because he kept pushing for information about what we were doing with Feudalism. I offered him the possibility of a trade, and he said he'd put it to his team. Like I said, I don't really expect anything from them, but we'll see.

I just wonder whether we'd be able to realistically trade to both Kaz and Cav without one of them trading with the other first to deny us the opportunity.

No timetable for CS yet.
 
They probably don't. Oyzar only said that he'd talk to his team; he didn't seem overly enthused about the trade himself, although perked up when I mentioned we might be able to offer gold or a resource to compensate for the beaker difference.
 
Just a thought, maybe we could offer Metal Casting + Feudalism for Civil Service + gold from Cav, if the deal with MS gets finalized. Makes sense, as MS would only trade Metal Casting around anyway, so we'd be giving ourselves a much better chance of getting them to agree to give us Civil Service by offering Metal Casting in the package.

Still, let's wait until we know more about whether MS are interested in the other trade first.
 
Private message from Oyzar (I hided the email address).

Hi, do you got msn? My msn is __@__ . I was wondering if your team would be interested in trading maps with us.

Since we've scouted quite a bit of their territory I wouldn't trade at this point especially because we don't want to encourage them to come to our side of the mountains. However one alternative is possible. We could try to negotiate our border and as a part of that accept also map trade. What do you think?

Alternatively I'm starting to think that after the next city we should seal the land access to our territory and plant the city in the narrow passage between our lands.
 
Haven't they explored a lot of our territory as well? I'm interested in the border concept, though I doubt how effective it will be.

I'm concerned about the next city to seal the land since the land isn't so good (jungle) but if Cav has their borders nearby, we definitely should plant our next city there.
 
Discussion with Oyzar. I didn't do that well. He was able to squeeze lot of info out of me and I started to wonder, if we should have just settled the passage and not startasking a border agreement with them. Well I hope I learned something from this.

I would need comments on following:
* Can I send the attached picture to Oyzar
* Can I agree upon our border. I don't like to give them the passage and hill position there, but we really can't do anything, if they decide to come over so I think we probably should agree upon it
* Is the map trade ok?

Personally I would be ready to answer yes to all these questions.

Spoiler :

plako says:
hi
oyzar says:
that took some time
oyzar says:
anyways hi
plako says:
yes. This is normally my only time to be able to be in MSN
oyzar says:
as i understand it you are the one running things in saturn atm?
plako says:
yes. intrest level has dropped quite low in our team
plako says:
oer people are busy
plako says:
*or
oyzar says:
that sucks
oyzar says:
interest seems to have dropped some for our team too unfortunatly
plako says:
You wanted to talk about sharing maps
oyzar says:
yes indeed
oyzar says:
we have the knowledge of paper now
plako says:
What would you think if we negotiate our borderline also?
oyzar says:
that is an option of course...
oyzar says:
depends on what ideas you guys have for borderline and such of course
oyzar says:
but that is why they call them negotiations
plako says:
yep. You probably know where we are?
oyzar says:
huh?
oyzar says:
we had a boat sailing past you, you know
plako says:
Of course I mean where our land come together. There is narrow mountain passage NE from your capital full of Jungle.
plako says:
Middle of that would seem natural border to me
oyzar says:
you have settled all land north of that passage?
plako says:
There is lot of crabby unsettled land
oyzar says:
crappy riverside grassland?
oyzar says:
anyways we would be much better able to discuss this if we shared maps
plako says:
So you haven't been in this direction yet?
oyzar says:
we've explored some around there
oyzar says:
though i am not sure if we are talking about exactly the same positions, if it is further north than what i am thinking we might not have
plako says:
a moment. I'll check couple of screenshots
oyzar says:
you could give a screenshort of just the area you are talking about if you want, that might make it easier to discuss things
plako says:
The area I'm talking about is NE from Serpente.
oyzar says:
yes NE of serpente there is a corridor leading north
plako says:
What would you think, if we agree you don't settle over the equator 5 tiles north from Serpente in this passage we could agree not to settle over the equator from our side likewise.
oyzar says:
so you basically get all the north to yourself?
plako says:
and you get all the south
oyzar says:
we have settled most of the land directly south of where you describe already while you have settled very little of the north
plako says:
We haven't been as busy as you, but we are not that far from there
oyzar says:
But from what you are saying you want to basically take all the empty spots(in that area) and give us nothing we don't have already? Is that correct?
oyzar says:
I just don't want to missunderstand you...
plako says:
I don't see it like that. It is area that geographically belongs to us
plako says:
mountains and jungle are natural border
oyzar says:
so because sulla put mountains and jungle there the land north of it belongs to you, even if you don't have any cities there? And you would see it as provokation if we settled cities in what you deem "your" land?
plako says:
This is why we need agreement
plako says:
There is not many spots available fo you to take 2 at most
plako says:
and only 1 free resouse
plako says:
*resource
oyzar says:
north of the passage you mean?
plako says:
yes
oyzar says:
from what I see of the map, there isn't really any way we can agree to that, though if we share maps we might be better able to determine where a natural border lies. We didn't see any workboat from you guys yet, so i am sure you haven't uncovered the entire coastline for example...
plako says:
interruption. 3-5 minutes
plako says:
So you're going to settle over the passage?
oyzar says:
we haven't settled anything there yet
plako says:
I'll discuss with the team and come back to this tomorrow. I'll probably be here about the same time. If I can I'll show you screenshot. Would map trade be just trading maps or are there some other conditions?
oyzar says:
there are space for at least 6 cities just in the corridor northwest of that NE corridor alone
oyzar says:
I was hoping to trade maps right now
oyzar says:
ofc, if you see that as part of that corridor things would be different...
oyzar says:
and what conditions would those be?
plako says:
I meant, if you think the value of your maps is higher than ours you would like to get something else alongside
oyzar says:
hard to know the value without knowing exactly what you have explored?
oyzar says:
have you explored sancta's lands / the lands west and south of you?
plako says:
I'll ask from the team how much I can reveal
oyzar says:
what do you think is far for the map trade then?
plako says:
far?
oyzar says:
fair*
plako says:
Just trading maps should be ok.
oyzar says:
so would you be fine with doing that now?
plako says:
I'll ask from the team and hopefully have answer to you tomorrow.
oyzar says:
I belive I asked Lord 8 days ago about trading maps, surely you have discussed this somewhat on your board...
oyzar says:
it takes you 8 days to tell me that you have to ask the team about it?
plako says:
Lord Parkin?
oyzar says:
yes
plako says:
He hasn't been active for a long time in our forums
oyzar says:
hmm, he said he would relay the message
oyzar says:
but whatever...
plako says:
I'll check, if I've missed this
oyzar says:
hmm, it was the same time(8 days ago) i talked to joshua
oyzar says:
and the same time i sent you the pm
plako says:
Neither of them have forwarded anything to our boards
plako says:
And you just asked, if we should discuss about trading maps
plako says:
and here I am now
plako says:
I've been here at the same time several days, but you've been offline
oyzar says:
well when i asked about trading maps, it doesn't help much if you don't know what your team wants . I take it you don't have the "power" to confirm any deals outright then?
plako says:
Team would like to agree upn our border also
plako says:
but if that is ot possible it might be that we can trade mpas
plako says:
*maps
oyzar says:
yeah, and as i said we wouldn't be able to agree on borders before we know the situation better, it would speed up things if we traded maps
plako says:
but I had to verify
oyzar says:
one option is that you don't settle west or south, of the river that runs by the bananas and horses
plako says:
We're settling next turn on that area
oyzar says:
where? to grab corn + bananas + horses?
plako says:
~
oyzar says:
~ meaning?
plako says:
I probably shouldn't be telling this detailed info, but no bananas
oyzar says:
I won't blame you
oyzar says:
and if we trade maps it won't matter anyways...
plako says:
true
plako says:
I'm naturally forwarding this convo to our boards as is
oyzar says:
so no map trades for now?
plako says:
Can you wait 24h
plako says:
Are you here tomorrow
oyzar says:
about this time? probably, might go out for a movie around this time though... not sure yet
plako says:
Alright. It probably isn't biug deal to wait another 1-2 days
plako says:
*big
oyzar says:
well information is worth more the earlier you get it
plako says:
If map trade seems feasible I can suggest it also ingame
plako says:
so no need for discussion
oyzar says:
map trade is probably ok yeah, i would prefer to talk on msn of course, but by all means when you come to an agreement offer the deal ingame and if we are in agreement we can just accept
plako says:
So you need to verify from th team also?
plako says:
It wasn't clear to you either?
oyzar says:
going from what you said, it seems like you aren't claiming the banana, as you know there aren't many resources in that corridor down south, so how would it sound to you if we settled a city to claim that banana?
oyzar says:
oh i know what I can accept and not, you are the one holding things up
oyzar says:
but that doesn't mean we won't discuss it
plako says:
So 2S or S-SE from the bananas?
oyzar says:
if you aren't claiming that banana, where is the city going? N of the corn for extra hills and trees?
oyzar says:
that would be an alternative, S of the banana would conflict with your city, yes?
plako says:
yes
oyzar says:
where is it? N or NE of the corn?
plako says:
NE from corn
oyzar says:
so SSE of the banana wouldn't conflict with you guys at all then
oyzar says:
SS would conflict one tile while SE would conflict 2 tiles
plako says:
And you wouldn found any cities north from that spot?
plako says:
in this area
oyzar says:
well you have founded some north of there yes? And I can't agree to that before I have seen the entire map of the area obviously, but that might be a possiblity
plako says:
Well there really isn't more than 1 city spot between banana city and our next city worth settling
plako says:
*sorry meant to say our existing city
plako says:
not next city
oyzar says:
well as i said we can't agree to that before we've seen exactly where that city is and what the land is like, but it is certainly a possiblity
oyzar says:
we certainly covered some ground today, I am glad we had this discussion
plako says:
I hope I'm not flamed of revelaing too much
oyzar says:
one can always pray
plako says:
So you're asking from yur team abiout map trade and border agreement?
plako says:
And we can seal the deal tomorrow, if it is ok to us?
oyzar says:
we will be discussing it yes, but as i said, a map trade would speed up the border agreement discussion
oyzar says:
so i am guessing we are looking at map trade tomorrow and border agreement the day after that or something, but things doesn't move too fast in this game of ours, so should be plenty of time
plako says:
I would prefer to get both deals at the same time. Would it help your desicion making, if I send you screenshot of the ares
plako says:
*area
oyzar says:
definatly yes...
oyzar says:
you understand why we can't just agree to a treaty of borders without knowing the lay of the land eh?
plako says:
I've prepared picture for you. It is old, but shows the relevant areas and also our border. I'll ask from the team,if I can send it to you and if I can you'll get it tomorrow.
oyzar says:
you can send it to my email or the team email, if you get the go ahead to send it before time
plako says:
alright cya. bye
 

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Send this to Cavaleiros + screenshot:

Greetings Cavaleiros,

We had yesterday discussion with Oyzar and here is the screenshot I promised to send you. We're also happy to trade maps with you and agree upon our border. You could settle your banana city S-S or S-SE from bananas and we would found 1 more city in the visible area NE-NE-E from bananas. I hope this is ok to you.


Sincerely,
plako of Saturn
 
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