SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

@Bcool

I'm not sure I can construct the National Epic, work the cottages in the capital, and build AP in Gems city plus create enough units for an effective war. That is 3 of our 6 cities that can crank out units occupied doing other things. The three new cities will take some time before they can turn into whipping centers.

Also, those South Witches have been in War Preperation mode for about 15 turns now and they haven't been spotted yet. Here are some screenshots of our financial situation which isn't very good and a shot of the edge of the southern barb city about 10 tiles from Isengarde.

Okay I don't want to make the same mistake that we made in the last sgotm (not going to war early enough).

However this is a different game. If we go to war then we might have to sacrifice a lot of things. What does the war provide for us...
--a lot of population more votes
--which can build more courthouses, etc increasing our espionage output
--options for building universities (might whip a captured city for a university for example) to unlock oxford university
--which eventually will help our commerce but in the short term will not
--some diplo penalties with at least 1 AI that is pleased with the eastern witches.
--possibly some diplo bonuses if the southern witches go to war with them.

Maybe an early war isn't worth it.

Maybe we build infrastructure (I'm thinking build what we can using organized religion and slavery until we have researched education and whipped out the universities), then switch back to caste system and pacifism. Go 0% on the slider after we get education and rack up the gold, go back to 100% science once Oxford finishes.
Continue to expand slowly under peace (sheep/clams or sheep/whales city, sheep/seafood/silver/marble/fur city at least)
Build enough military to take a few barbarian cities and as an emergency defense force.
Pick up some experience taking barbarian cities (and either keeping them or giving them away for diplo bonuses) Build the HE.
Work up to a war with drafted muskets and trebs perhaps for a later grab of cities and population when our empire can better deal the expense of a larger army. Drafting and building Trebs using the HE city is probably dramatically more efficient than whipping out an army early on. And we would probably also have access to Galleons to dramatically speed up the transport of our army to key cities and locations.

I don't think we need to start warring early to win a diplo game. Especially because an early war means significant sacrifices in our tech pace or the development of key cities like the capital and GPFarm. And perhaps giving up on key wonders.
An efficient later war can pick up the population we need for the vote long before we can get the UN built. Extra cities early on is very good for a conquest/domination win. But an expensive early war against teams might hurt our victory date more than it would help.
 
Ok, I made a first draft PPP that is showing the general idea of what I'm thinking.

It naturally turned out to be our choice #1 of slowly expanding and warring later.


It gets Music in 2 turns, lets us do the Metal Casting Trade, and allows us to get a great shot at stealing Theology. It has the National Epic, forge in Washington, National Epic in GPfarm, and a sword/catapult combo to sail up to Elizabeth's barb city for an XP farming attempt to unlock HE.

4 cities get a Lighthouse, and 3 Calendar resources are hooked up. Two spies are sent to Asoka's land. Once the English barb city is vanquished one way or another, I was thinking of sailing two Missionairies later over to Ghenghis to convert(bribe) him since he is rather religious but that is way beyond my turnset.
 
Is anyone having problems with the test game crashing as T122 changes to T123? My game crashes every time. I am also playing on a nearly brand new CPU and these are my first Civ IV crashes.


EDIT: It must be my CPU. I am not having crash issues anymore.

Weird. I have a reproducible crash after T124...
 
Weird. I have a reproducible crash after T124...

I played some more and was getting crashes at different times, always repeatable with the autosave before the crash. I don't know what it means, but I don't like it!
 
I played some more and was getting crashes at different times, always repeatable with the autosave before the crash. I don't know what it means, but I don't like it!

You are all making me sad...:(
Looks like the test game must be dropped.

It occured to me at T128. Damn!
 
You are all making me sad...:(
Looks like the test game must be dropped.

Not necessarily. If Kaitzilla's works fine and he updates it, it might work fine. It could be our CPUs or OS. It is clearly tied to the file somehow, but that test game is extremely valuable. All attempts should be made to keep using it.
 
... that in a fairly short length of time (Guilds plus initial workshop spam, say 15-20 turns) Caste System will tend to out-perform Slavery on hammers, and provide access to our desperately-needed mass specialists too.

How do you plan to complete Guilds in 15-20 turns? We aren't even close to having any of its prerequisite technologies.

Regarding base Hammers 3:1 ratio from whipping at low populations, for example Pop 2 city whipped 1 Population for 30H:

1) Assume city just grows back to Pop 2 with no excess food.

2) Granary will have 11F in it 22F (Pop 1) / 2.

3) One Pop whipping provides 30H and Granary still has 11F.

4) City needs precise 11F to return to state in step #1, except with +1 Unhappiness.

The only bad thing about whipping is the +1 Unhappiness stacked per whip which fades with time (10 tuns for normal speed).

30H / 11F = 2.72:1 which is fairly close to 3:1. 2.72:1 is the best ratio for whipping and it doesn't include any assist from unrelated multipliers such as a Forge, Organized Religion, Police State, Resource, Factory, Power Plant, etc. Furthermore, I said whipping with a granary ranged from 2:1 to 3:1 and I was quite clear on how one gets the 3:1 ratio (I should have said close to 3:1 or 2.72:1 to be precise).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Upon reflect I think we want to use the free missionary to spread the religion to gems, so that we can spread the religion faster.


Hehe, you sure about that? 40% espionage bonus is pretty big. It lowers the cost from 396 to 297 roughly from my test game.
 
comments in blue.

FIRST DRAFT PPP​
T115-T125​

9 Cities, 9 Workers, 55 Population/311 World (17.68%), 8.4%/68% Land Dom.

Technology: Music, Paper

When I play I often connect my cities with my workers in my head. I will attempt to do so in this PPP using screenshots to condense information. If it does not work well, then I will use a PPP that resembles Tachywaxon's PPP.

The first two turns are dictated by attempting +287:science: to get Music in two turns for GArtist and trading for Metal Casting. The next two turns are occupied by revolting to Taoism first to allow a Theology steal, and then revolting to Slavery+Organized Religion.
I think we might want to spread taoism to gems, I think we can afford to steal 1 tech without the religious bonus. Since Taoism is valuable for us and gems s a great city to spread it to isengard and Trojan Horse.

Isengarde

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 - Spearman [Sheep, Fish, Cow, Horse, Bronze, Spy, Merchant]
T117-T118 - Revolt
T119-T120 - Lighthouse [Sheep, Fish, Cow, Horse, Bronze, Spy, Merchant] (More military if South Witches are menacing us)
T121 - Whip Lighthouse [Sheep, Fish, Cow, Horse, Bronze]
T122-T123 - Swordsman
T124 - Settler
We might build a swordsman and catapult here before we build/whip the lighthouse since we might want to wait for the lighthouse whip until we have taoism. I think we want to farm the barbarian city 10 tiles south for xp instead of the barb city in Elizabeth's lands.

Worker Actions
Karl:
T115-T117 - Road 1SW of Isengarde
T118 - Head towards Gems City to start Gmine on T119

Might want to build roads if we do decide to go for barbarian city near isengard instead.

Gems City

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 Lighthouse [Crabs, Wheat, Gems, Deer, 5 Scientists]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119 - Whip Lighthouse [Crabs, What, Gems, Deer, Sugar, Gmine, Scientist]
T120 - Settler
If we get taoism instead of Trojan Horse first, then we can whip a missionary and build one here after with the overflow. I liked your original plan of aggressively spreading the religion. Also I would like to start the AP somewhere... Perhaps with the overflow from the lighthouse whip? Maybe build the settler elsewhere?

Worker Actions
Yamasaki:
T115-T117 Chop Jungle
T118-T119 Plantation Sugar

Ramanajun:
T115 - Move onto jungle Sugar
T116 - Chop Jungle
T117-T119 Plantation Sugar

Karl:
T119 - Mine Ghill


GPFarm

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 Galley [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, 6 Scientists then 7 on T116]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119 - Whip Galley [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, Silk, Ghill, Ghill, Phill, Phill] (Scout the barb city real quickly then head back)
T120-T122 - Catapult [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, Silk, Ghill, Ghill, Phill, Phill, Scientists as pop grows]
T123 - National Epic
I'd rather give up on the barb city in Elizabeth's lands. I think the barb city down near Isengard is a safer bet for xp farming. Plus this lets GP Farm build the National Epic in peace. I think the National Epic here is a top priority. Higher priority than the barb city in Elizabeth's land. Going for that barbarian city is a risk and I would hate to sacrifice GPFarm's development for it.

Worker Actions
Fritz:
T115 - Fort Silk
T116-T118 Plantation the forted Silk instead
T119 - Head to Desert Incense to help Goodyear with Fort

I like finishing the fort here. It might help boat movement originating in GPFarm and I believe it is only 1 more turn now than the plantation.

Washington

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 Swordsman [Corn, Cow, Sheep, 6 Grass Cottages, Plains Cottage, then Ghill T117]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119 - Barracks [Corn, Cow, Sheep, 6 Grass Cottages, Plains Cottage, Spices]
T120 - Whip Barracks [Corn, Cow, Sheep, 6 Grass Cottages]
T121 - Swordsman [ Corn, Cow, Sheep, 6 Grass Cottages, Plains Cottage]
T122 - Forge
T123 - Whip Forge
I like a taoism spread here and a forge whip to overflow into a taoism missionary. Can we produce the swordsman down near Isengard and go for a different barbarian city? I don't like the sacrifice we are making in GPFarm and Washington just to produce units to go for a barb city that Elizabeth might take from us or prevent us from farming properly for xp.

Worker Actions
Hoover:
T115 - Cottage Plains
T116 - T117 Plantation Spices
T118-T119 Move to Marble City to mine Ghill

Semiramus:
T115-T117 Plantation Spices
T118-T119 Move to Marble City to mine Ghill


Culture Bridge

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115 - Lighthouse [Crab, Clam, Ghill, Merchant]
T116 - Lighthouse [Crab, Clam, Ghill, Merchant]
T117-T118 - Revolt
T119 - Whip Ligthouse [Crab, Clam, Ghill]

Worker Actions


Marble City

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 - Granary [Crab, Merchant]
T117-T118 - Revolt
T119-T120 - Granary [Crab, Unimproved Grass Tile]
T121-T122 - Granary [Crab, Gmine]

Worker Actions
Hoover:
T120-T121 - Mine Ghill
T122-T124 - Farm 1W of Marble City
T125 - Fortify for next player

Semiramus:
T120-T121 - Mine Ghill
T122-T123 - Farm 1W of Marble City
T124-T125 - Farm 1N of Marble City, Fortify for next player


Stone City

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 Spy [Gold, Rice, Oasis, Stone, Crab, 2 Coast Tiles]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119 - Taoist Missionairy [Gold, Rice, Oasis, Stone, Crab, River Cottage, 2 Coast Tiles]
T120 - Whip Taoist Missionairy [Gold, Rice, Oasis, Stone, Crab, River Cottage] (Spreads Gems City T123)
T121 - Taoist Missionairy [Gold, Rice, Oasis, Stone, Crab, River Cottage, Ghill] (Spreads Washington T123)
T122 - Taoist Missionairy
T123 - Whip Toaist Missionairy
T124 - Taoist Missionairy

Spreading taoism to Gems with the free missionary might let Stone city off Taoism whipping duties. Plus maybe we can get a taoist missionary out of washington too. Then stone city might be free to whip a forge of its own.

Worker Actions


Silver City

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 Lighthouse [Pigs, Fish, Silver, Grass Farm, Merchant then 2 Merchant T116]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119 - Whip Lighthouse
Spreading Taoism here to set up a more beneficial whip of the lighthouse would be great. It might mean delaying the lighthouse a little bit (make time working on a forge or courthouse), then when we have taoism whip the lighthouse under organized religion with taoism... Setting up a quick courthouse or forge whip too?

Worker Actions
Stevenson:
T115-T116 Road Pigs
T117 - Moves to forest in Phants City BFC


Phants City

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115 - Granary [Artist]
T116 - Granary [Clams]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119-T123 - Granary [Clams]
T124-T125 - Granary [Clams, Grass Farm]

Worker Actions
Eiffel:
T115-T116 Elephant Camp
T117-T120 Farm West of Phants City
T121 - Move to Jungle Dye
T122-T123 Chop Jungle Dye
T124-T125 Plantation Jungle Dye

Stevenson:
T118-T120 Chop Forest
T121 Farm 2W of Phants City
T122 - Move to Jungle Dye
T123-T124 Chop Jungle Dye
T125 - Fortify for next player

Do you anticipate a strong need for happiness? Why send both workers into the jungle the same turn? wouldn't building a road with one save a worker turn. I guess this assumes that the other worker can do something productive. Perhaps a road on a grass hill, so the workers can jump from the dye to the mine after they finish with the dye?

Whale City

Spoiler :

I'd rather settle this city on the sheep. It is competitive food wise, has more options with sharing with gems city, and it saves a forest.

City Actions

Worker Actions


Tiny City

Spoiler :


City Actions

Worker Actions

Idea abandoned :blush:


Non-City Workers :mischief:
(Outside a City's BFC)

Goodyear:
T115 - Fort Incense
T116-T117 - Enter GPFarm's BFC to help Fritz with Plantation
T118-T120 - Fort Incense again

Fritz:
T119-T120 - Fort Incense
wouldn't improving the silk be better than forting the incense? The capital will probably want to work the silk rather than one of its fledging cottages, no?

Non-City Moves

The Great Spy will scout south to explore the bottom-left of the map where Montezuma resides.
The galley from Silver City will sail south to Culture Bridge and transfer two spies to Asoka's land on T123. One will explore Southwest, other Southeast. Closed borders means one will be caught eventually. Will avoid ending movement on a city garrison of troops/spy.
The Taoist Missionairy will spread Toaism to Trojan Horse City on T115.
I'd like to spread taoism to gems. I know I know, I was a big fan of getting in Trojan Horse, but I think spread taoism is going to pay off.
The axeman will continue to scout the wilderness and kill the occasional barb. The workboat up north will keep exploring west. The scout chariot will head west, then up Ghenghis spoke.


Diplomacy
Tech demands for anything except Pacifism, gold, and resource demands from West and North Witches will be granted.
All request for halting trades, changing religions, and help with war will be denied if any AI requests them.
All demands from South and East Witches will be declined.
 
Hehe, you sure about that? 40% espionage bonus is pretty big. It lowers the cost from 396 to 297 roughly from my test game.

stealing theocracy without the religion costs ~399

stealing theocracy with the religion costs ~239

Is 140 espionage worth spreading the religion faster? I think it might be.
 
Isengard T119 will not be able to run a merchant. Karl should build a road 1S2W of Isengard, and definitely not 2W or 1S1W. Consider the likely movement patterns through this area. Then he should road Silver and the tundra forest hill 1W of silver, and then probably the ice marble, while waiting for the settler to plant so the sheep can be improved. This accelerates the settling date and access to improved sheep for city growth.

Gems City should get started on the forge before the AP, rather than a settler. If Isengard is building one for the hub marble site, we should not delay the AP in order to get out a marginal sheep city. Worker plan is good - follow up with sugar road, Gmine (since Karl is not helping) and moving one worker to the Phill to mine it.

GPfarm looks fine. Why fort the silk T115 only to replace it next turn? I don't think we will work this tile in a long long time. So I think we should finish the fort (though I'd prefer not to have started it!) and work on the plantation north of it with both workers, and then go and finish the slow desert incense plantation. This gets us resources for trading faster, I think.

Washington has some dead time before it can start a forge :( Since we will build it a monastery for the Bureaucratic bonus to AP hammers as well as the extra beakers multiplier, it makes sense to play for Washington to produce many missionaries in the long term. So that suggests not building a barracks. So I think two turns of central-tile-only hammers on wealth is the best approach, and once we have MC start a forge, planning to spread Taoism here first to whip the forge and overflow onto another missionary or two. I think Semiramus is better building a river farm 1S of corn for Marble City - working the Gmine is better than the pre-granary whip conversion, but I think earlier access to the 2-pop whip from the farm(s) is better still. Hoover should go to start Gworkshops north of Stone City. Multiple turns moving pairs of workers cross-country to do non-critical work should be avoided, IMO :)

CB does better to not work the Gmine (merchant instead) so that the lighthouse whip can be of two population rather than one. Then grow on coasts while building Courthouse?

Rather than another spy (we have five of them!) shouldn't Stone City build Wealth or start a Tao Monastery? I think Stone City should work the river Gmine in preference to a coast, unless coast gets growth one turn earlier. The difference between the two tiles is 1:food:1:commerce: against 3:hammers:. The extra one food from the coast is worth about 2 base hammers, so Gmine is better at what we really want to produce here - hammers on missionaries. I think the first missionary should go for Washington and the second for Gems City.

Silver City builds a forge next? Our university sites look like being Washington, Stone, Gems, GPfarm, Isengard and one more... here looks best.

Phants city will whip a granary the turn after the forest chop, so we are not in a hurry to work a grassland farm. Eiffel should chop the jungle after the ivory camp, and Stevenson should spend one turn on the iron road before joining Eiffel to build the plantation after the jungle is chopped. Then judge how best to juggle roads and getting farms built.

Our missionary should spread Taoism T117 immediately before the espionage mission, just in case something good happens - like spontaneous Taoism spread.

Deny requests for Philo, not Pacifism :)
 
stealing theocracy without the religion costs ~399

stealing theocracy with the religion costs ~239

Is 140 espionage worth spreading the religion faster? I think it might be.


Well, we do have that extra great spy roaming around for a later 3000EP boost. I suppose we could ditch a hundred or so espionage for faster religion spread.

The galley/sword/catapult expedition to Elizabeth can be canceled if you guys really think it won't work around T128 or so. I'll probably build a settler in GPfarm instead and whip the max overflow into National Epic.

That should free up Gems City to spread religion, get a forge, and buckle down on AP instead of playing with a settler for Sheep City.
 
stealing theocracy without the religion costs ~399

stealing theocracy with the religion costs ~239

Is 140 espionage worth spreading the religion faster? I think it might be.

I think boot-strapping Taoism faster by spreading in Gems City is worth 100 or so EPs. I measured 397 vs 292 in the test game.
 
Well, we do have that extra great spy roaming around for a later 3000EP boost. I suppose we could ditch a hundred or so espionage for faster religion spread.

The galley/sword/catapult expedition to Elizabeth can be canceled if you guys really think it won't work around T128 or so. I'll probably build a settler in GPfarm instead and whip the max overflow into National Epic.

That should free up Gems City to spread religion, get a forge, and buckle down on AP instead of playing with a settler for Sheep City.

I don't think Sheep City is a priority at all - Gems City will want all of its food to itself under Caste. I like AP under OR in Gems and delayed NE in GPfarm with max overflow better than the other way around, and the value of fast NE is low if we are only running four specialists there. Later NE (perhaps with OR helping) in return for something useful now seems a respectable compromise.
 
In general, whipping is for turning excess Food into Hammers. Assuming the excess Food is being lost without any benefit, it doesn't matter what the Food to Hammer ratio is; if the excess Food can no longer be efficiently stored as more Population, it can be converted to Hammers via whipping.

That scenario will never apply at a relevant stage of an SGOTM medal attempt. The majority of our cities will be able to work another lighthouse-enhanced coast to derive 2:commerce: benefit for additional population, or run a specialist - there is always something to do. I showed above that Isengard is stable working workshops an all of its non-resource BFC tiles. Stone City is stable at size 10 working crabs-rice-oasis-stone-RGmine-gold and four Gworkshops. Gems is stable at size 13 working gems-crab-deer-wheat-sugar, 2 Gmines, 1 Pmine, 3 Gworkshops, 2 Pworkshops.

What do you mean "That scenario will never apply at a relevant stage of an SGOTM medal attempt."?

If one stores Food as Population and later wants it back as Hammers, whipping and slavery is the only way to do it. Surely slavery and whipping is used in nearly every recorded SGOTM medal win; attempts that fail to get a medal do not count.

If on the other hand, you mean simply to stagnate growth at a particular Population, there may not be an optimal way to do that.

Also note, that Grassland Workshops at 1F3H are indistinguishable from Grassland Hill Mines 1F3H. One notable thing about this comparison is a Railroad will add a Hammer to the Mine, but not to the Forge. The Workshop doesn't surpass the Mine until Chemistry and simply matches a Railroaded Mine.

The only thing great about a Workshop is it adds organic hammers to a BFC that has no unused hills left, but does have spare flat grassland or plains plots.

Instant Stack of Doom:

Finally, whipping is the best way to produce an huge army where none existed before. For example, one can whip a unit every two turns in every city for 10 turns, creating an army of 5 * # cities in one's empire. The assumption is all cities have stored excess Food as Population sufficient to be whipped at least 5 times every other turn. No AI can hold out against such huge numbers of units or respond fast enough by whipping defenders or moving his mobile forces to defend cities under attack.

Conclusion:

I understand that the concept of storing Food as Population for later whipping is not what you are objecting to. However, I do not accept your idea that stagnate cities at a supposedly ideal population size must be used in every SGOTM medal winning game. Never say never. Sometimes it is ideal for city population to continue to grow and more often it is better for a gradual reduction of the granary to enable 1-2 more specialist to be run, especially during a Golden Age.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I don't think Sheep City is a priority at all - Gems City will want all of its food to itself under Caste. I like AP under OR in Gems and delayed NE in GPfarm with max overflow better than the other way around, and the value of fast NE is low if we are only running four specialists there. Later NE (perhaps with OR helping) in return for something useful now seems a respectable compromise.


I disagree. Sheep city can grow plenty large on farms and sea tiles later if it gets started early enough. I think GPfarm and Silver City should whip settlers around T120 or T121 for Sheep City and Fur City.

Writing off whole cities to get another specialist is a strategic mistake when we don't have to fight for them. Surely we can afford it if we are not whipping a giant army just yet.
 
Isengard T119 will not be able to run a merchant. Karl should build a road 1S2W of Isengard, and definitely not 2W or 1S1W. Consider the likely movement patterns through this area. Then he should road Silver and the tundra forest hill 1W of silver, and then probably the ice marble, while waiting for the settler to plant so the sheep can be improved. This accelerates the settling date and access to improved sheep for city growth.
sounds good. the other alternative is to start a road towards the barbarian city that is 10 tiles south...

Gems City should get started on the forge before the AP, rather than a settler. If Isengard is building one for the hub marble site, we should not delay the AP in order to get out a marginal sheep city. Worker plan is good - follow up with sugar road, Gmine (since Karl is not helping) and moving one worker to the Phill to mine it.
I like a missionary whip and a possible lighthouse whip and a forge then the AP in gems.

GPfarm looks fine. Why fort the silk T115 only to replace it next turn? I don't think we will work this tile in a long long time. So I think we should finish the fort (though I'd prefer not to have started it!) and work on the plantation north of it with both workers, and then go and finish the slow desert incense plantation. This gets us resources for trading faster, I think.
Or stop on the incense on your way to improving the silk near the capital that might want to work it instead of a cottage.

Washington has some dead time before it can start a forge :( Since we will build it a monastery for the Bureaucratic bonus to AP hammers as well as the extra beakers multiplier, it makes sense to play for Washington to produce many missionaries in the long term. So that suggests not building a barracks. So I think two turns of central-tile-only hammers on wealth is the best approach, and once we have MC start a forge, planning to spread Taoism here first to whip the forge and overflow onto another missionary or two. I think Semiramus is better building a river farm 1S of corn for Marble City - working the Gmine is better than the pre-granary whip conversion, but I think earlier access to the 2-pop whip from the farm(s) is better still. Hoover should go to start Gworkshops north of Stone City. Multiple turns moving pairs of workers cross-country to do non-critical work should be avoided, IMO :)
I like these suggestions.

CB does better to not work the Gmine (merchant instead) so that the lighthouse whip can be of two population rather than one. Then grow on coasts while building Courthouse?
(spread religion here before whips?)

Rather than another spy (we have five of them!) shouldn't Stone City build Wealth or start a Tao Monastery? I think Stone City should work the river Gmine in preference to a coast, unless coast gets growth one turn earlier. The difference between the two tiles is 1:food:1:commerce: against 3:hammers:. The extra one food from the coast is worth about 2 base hammers, so Gmine is better at what we really want to produce here - hammers on missionaries. I think the first missionary should go for Washington and the second for Gems City.

I want a spy sent to Boston however. Do we have a spy for Boston? If we send 2 spies to the eastern witches then we don't (at least not for boston and 1 for Trojan Horse and 1 to wait to jump in. If we send 2 spies to the eastern witches we do need an extra spy.


Silver City builds a forge next? Our university sites look like being Washington, Stone, Gems, GPfarm, Isengard and one more... here looks best.
Might not want a university in GPFarm. Might want to build up Phant city instead for a university?

Phants city will whip a granary the turn after the forest chop, so we are not in a hurry to work a grassland farm. Eiffel should chop the jungle after the ivory camp, and Stevenson should spend one turn on the iron road before joining Eiffel to build the plantation after the jungle is chopped. Then judge how best to juggle roads and getting farms built.

Our missionary should spread Taoism T117 immediately before the espionage mission, just in case something good happens - like spontaneous Taoism spread.

Deny requests for Philo, not Pacifism :)
too late here, I can't comment any more.
 
... A smaller city like Culture Bridge whipping from size 4 to 2 requires only 26 and 28 food, less 13 and 14 from the granary, so 27 food required for 60 hammers. The ratio cannot be anything like 3 hammers for a food.

Your calculations are slightly off in favor of your argument here.

Growing from Pop 2 to Pop 3 requires 24F (not 26F) and the granary provides 12F toward Pop 4.

Growing from Pop 3 to Pop 4 requires 26F (not 28F) and the granary provides 13F toward Pop 5.

So, for a 2 Pop whip, 2 x 30H is produced and 12F + 13F = 25F is required to regrow to Pop 4. 60H / 25F = 2.4:1

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I disagree. Sheep city can grow plenty large on farms and sea tiles later if it gets started early enough. I think GPfarm and Silver City should whip settlers around T120 or T121 for Sheep City and Fur City.

Writing off whole cities to get another specialist is a strategic mistake when we don't have to fight for them. Surely we can afford it if we are not whipping a giant army just yet.


I like GPFarm and Silver producing more settlers rather than producing them in Gems and Isengard. (with max whips into productive builds like the NE and a missionary or forge perhaps)

I think settling on the sheep is better than near the whales. We might need to consider more workers (perhaps another one out of Isengard) if we plan to build 2 more cities soon.

It doesn't sound like we are going to come to a consensus for this turn set, so Kaitzilla please do your best to filter the advice good and bad and make the best decision you can. We can't afford to drag the debates out too long these days.

If you can play in 24 hours that would be great in my mind.

P.S. I lied about not commenting anymore because it was too late.
 
Your calculations are slightly off in favor of your argument here.

Growing from Pop 2 to Pop 3 requires 24F (not 26F) and the granary provides 12F toward Pop 4.

Growing from Pop 3 to Pop 4 requires 26F (not 28F) and the granary provides 13F toward Pop 5.

So, for a 2 Pop whip, 30H is produced and 12F + 13F = 25F is required to regrow to Pop 4. 60H / 25F = 2.4:1

Sun Tzu Wu

Correct. Thanks. Still not 3:1 unless you consider OR or forges and those would also enhance the Caste scenario.
 
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