Dune University 1

ChrisAdams3997 · Jun 24, 2011

Playing a good game, and the tech lead is very promising. You will need to get some military production going before too long, though for now the AIs should still be happy to expand peaceably for a bit longer. I'll often use a similar strategy of going for imperial and CHOAM fairly quickly, but, as most should know by now, I play with tech trading off, which makes a big difference since you can't just trade for the other techs you really need early, you've got to break off of your big goals to get them. Gives you a different look at your priorities, and there is no such thing as a tech you never plan to research on your own :lol:

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That's really the aspect that makes this so different from my games. It's harder (with tech trading off) to build a large tech lead (or one at all) since you can't 'play the field' and opportunistically cherry pick technologies from AIs, something humans tend to do better than the AIs. Instead of outright trades of course, the tech diffusion from knowing civs with the tech you are researching becomes important, an effect that is strengthened by having open borders (this is why it's still important to keep good diplo relations, besides the motivation to not get dogpiled and to trade resources). Unfortunately this number isn't shown in the interface and is something most players don't know how it works (something I might improve upon).

I also tend to see a stronger Tlelaxui. They still have the negatives of less open borders so less trade income and tech diffusion, but they aren't crippled by being left out of the tech trading game and can be quite scary if they get a military in place early enough (for the inevitable wars they'll be fighting).

It's really something I encourage players to try in some of their games as it gives a really different feel to the experience and a little more challenge.

I also wonder if you've noticed that the AIs are less likely to have explored the whole map by the end of the early game :rolleyes:

. This might have been more of a problem on epic/marathon games where there are more turns for units to explore, but the AI pumped out so many explore units from vanilla AI code (where they are limited in what they can explore early), it was ridiculous. This meant lots of hammers wasted on worm food in the early game, and a very asymmetric behavior to how humans tend explore (no-one tries to explore the whole map in the first 100 turns).

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, I've forgotten to switch civics after researching feudalism plenty of times (even after beelining it mostly for them :lol:

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Ahriman · Jun 24, 2011

Roma decides to demand Feudalism from me. I refuse, but do end up trading Feudalism for Dune Topography, another tech I do not self-research. Since she is at pleased, I don't think twice about the diplo hit from refusing her demand.

However, the Harkonnens provide a map for the trivial price of Dune Topography.

This is why I play with no tech brokering on

The Great Scientist is used to bulb Human Potential. Meritocracy is a good civic (+50% GP generation) but the main draw is that it leads to Mental Discipline (which allows Mentats to be built).

Interesting, I usually tend to stick my first great scientist into making an Academy in the capital, where all the spice income is coming in. Big long-term research boost.
Meritocracy is of course very powerful though, and Human Potential is an expensive civic.

Turbines, IMO, are the best generic production improvement for mesa tiles.

Yup, by design. Mines are there for early game, bonus resources, or through oppression. Solar farms are also reasonable if you need hammers, though cottages or specialists are often better.

The tech situation on turn 113. Pretty solid tech lead

Interesting. I find playing Epic speed the game normally goes very differently, at least with what I am used to. No way you could go all the way up these social and economic techs with such a weak military. You still have nothing but infantry right?

I worry a bit that this is the result of the AI change, more than the game speed though. The AI changes that move the AI away from building units now mean they are never going to be a threat in the early game, and so you are free to tech like this.

but the AI pumped out so many explore units from vanilla AI code (where they are limited in what they can explore early), it was ridiculous. This meant lots of hammers wasted on worm food in the early game, and a very asymmetric behavior to how humans tend explore (no-one tries to explore the whole map in the first 100 turns).

Yes, I've noticed fewer scout thopters, I think this is a good change.

Jester Fool · Jun 24, 2011

I worry a bit that this is the result of the AI change, more than the game speed though. The AI changes that move the AI away from building units now mean they are never going to be a threat in the early game, and so you are free to tech like this.

I've always played this way. The only time the AI has ever, at least in my games, been an early threat is if you start next to them. Before the changes, the AI teched much worse and it was fairly easy to fend off early AI aggression since you always had a tech advantage. IMO, the fact I have a lot of spice is the reason I am doing so well in tech this game. I played a game before this where I got beat to Feudalism, Great Houses and other techs I beeline for and in that game I had a total of 0 spice until like turn 100 or so. Some games are like that.

Ahriman · Jun 24, 2011

Well, epic feels very different. Barbarians are more of a threat, and if you just stick with infantry then you'll lose a lot or barbs will start coming to pillage your stuff and kill your workers. Neighbors are more of a threat, because they can move a stack to you faster, relative to tech speed.
Settling near spice is less valuable, because (I think?) the spice disappearance/appearance rates aren't speed linked, to proportionally spice is much more random.

But by the time you got to culture of dune and great houses, there's a good chance some AI would have Bladesmen and be banging on your door. Bladesmen > infantry.

ChrisAdams3997 · Jun 24, 2011

The AI changes that move the AI away from building units now mean they are never going to be a threat in the early game, and so you are free to tech like this.

Take a look at the score board, they are building up military. By this point in the game none of the AIs are even paying for units yet (which is where most changes come into play, later when military budgets start growing), the only thing slowing them down are the same things as before, they are also building settlers and early water/economy buildings. I think it's more so game speed and the ability to opportunistically trade those economy/government techs (after you've gotten the initial rewards for reaching them first) for all the other techs skipped.

Definitely slowing the game speed gives the AI more chance to get things into place for earlier wars, so that also makes this strategy easier in his game than in an epic/marathon game. I've definitely been dogpiled a few times trying to skimp on military early (more so for me after the AI changes).

Well, epic feels very different. Barbarians are more of a threat, and if you just stick with infantry then you'll lose a lot or barbs will start coming to pillage your stuff and kill your workers.

Definitely true

because (I think?) the spice disappearance/appearance rates aren't speed linked, to proportionally spice is much more random.

I've never looked at this, but it'd be easy to find out and is a good thing to look at. I've had many games where I started next to a ton of spice, but by the time I'm able to start working it, part is gone, and most of it may or may not dry up within 20-30 turns. Of course it is very random (which is good!) and sometimes much of the early spice I get can last well into the mid game, you just never know. I think the rate of appearance/disappearance at epic feels very right, but if it's not linked to speed it could be off at other speeds?

Ahriman · Jun 24, 2011

I think the rate of appearance/disappearance at epic feels very right, but if it's not linked to speed it could be off at other speeds?

It's possible. I agree that it feels fine at epic, it might be linked to game speed already. I'm not sure that there is any issue here at all, I am just trying to find reasons for why the "feel" of my game experience generally feels different to this one. I'm guessing game speed is the main reason, but it could also be playstyle (I might build up a military earlier than is really necessary).
It could also be the no tech brokering that I play with, which significantly reduces tech trading, so the tech race goes more slowly.

Jester Fool · Jun 24, 2011

turnset 2; part 2 (~turn 155) :

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Empire (or lack thereof) so far.

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Master Scytale demands Faith from me. I am more than happy to comply. It won't affect diplo (now anyway) but does give me 10 turns of guaranteed peace with him.

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Water Economy is now in the bag. Next up will be Protected Trade and once that is researched, I will need to make a civics switch.

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Another Wonder gets built in the capital. I queue up a Mushtamal in preparation for building Wet Planet Conservatory. Now I am also the worst enemy of the Bene Gesserit it seems so I will need to switch to no religion to avoid unnecessary problems.

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I offer this trade to Beast Rabban since I need to tech towards Defensive Armaments. Thankfully, diplo is now much better but I do need better defensive troops. Luck eventually runs out.

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The Archduke offers this nice trade. I don't think I will be building quads this game but it gets me closer to Suspensor Devices which I will need to war early. Research is now towards Spice Industry.

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Gold for a tech I just traded away = pro. Almost forgot, I finally get around to founding the fourth Ixian city.

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Time for a civics switch. My favorite early game combo since it has nice synergy. Later, I might adopt Free Market and/or Private Property. For now, this will do just fine.

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I go ahead and do this trade with Margot since Theocracy might come in handy in about 10 turns. Roma is plotting war and I am the target since we share the same landmass. Change of plans. I start researching Defensive Armaments while Harmah Lookout starts spamming rocket troopers (until I can build master guardsman).

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With Defensive Armaments done, I will finish Spice Industry and then go straight to Offworld Trade. The Great Scientist I received on turn 138 will be used to start a GA once Spice Industry is finished.

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I decide not to delay starting a GA. The capital is going to start building troops next turn after finishing WPC.

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I go ahead and switch to Meritocracy and Arrakis Spice. I probably should have switched to Meritocracy earlier but can't cry about that now. Well, well, well. Roma is pleased with me now although that won't stop the coming war since she was cautious when she started plotting war.

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Tech situation on turn 144.

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The fifth city is founded but I still have 2 good sites left to settle, one of which was supposed to be the GP farm. Need to speed up the process just a bit. Still, I am keeping up with the AIs and more importantly, my science output remains high.

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No surprise here. Let's see what you got Roma. I am so concerned that the capital is building The Collected Teachings. :lol:

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I get a Great Nobleman and bulb Imperialism with it. I wish it would have been a GS since I still don't have an Academy in the capital yet.

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On turn 151, someone else builds The Collected Teachings and I get fail gold, which was the plan all along. The capital then starts Sandworker's Union which only I can build right now. I now will start researching Mental Discipline (for Mentats of course) and Al Basit will build the first Landing Stage once the House Library is finished. Beast Rabban gets a little greedy but whatever. I give him what he wants - for now. In the third and final part of turnset 2, the skirmish with Roma will come to an end. And no, Roma gets nowhere.

Ahriman · Jun 25, 2011

Master Scytale demands Faith from me. I am more than happy to comply.

Hmmm... Faith should be a fairly high priority tech for Tleilaxu. It's a bit worrying that they don't have it yet.

The mod plays *so* differently when you allow full tech trading allowed.

Why was the Ordos attack so ineffective? Did they not have a land connection, and yet didn't have suspensor transports yet?

Jester Fool · Jun 25, 2011

Hmmm... Faith should be a fairly high priority tech for Tleilaxu.

I could be wrong, but normally (I think) they do go for it early. This does stand out as not optimal (from their standpoint). Isn't tech path somewhat random? If so, that would explain this poor decision on the AIs part.

The mod plays *so* differently when you allow full tech trading allowed.

The same is true of vanilla civ. I think for Dune University 2 (yep, there will be another

), I will try different settings, most likely Epic speed with no tech brokering/no tech trading. Suggestions? I kinda would like to see strategies other players use. I already know mine.

Why was the Ordos attack so ineffective? Did they not have a land connection, and yet didn't have suspensor transports yet?

Short answer - yes on land connection but no suspensor craft. In part 3, I will go into specific details. Don't want to spoil it just yet.

Jester Fool · Jun 26, 2011

turnset 2; part 3 (~turn 183) :

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Too many images (Doh!!) so continued in part 3.5.

Jester Fool · Jun 26, 2011

Turnset 2; part 3.5 (~ turn 185) :

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That wraps up the second turnset. If anybody is interested, here is the save. View attachment du1-endturnset2.CivBeyondSwordSave

Ahriman · Jun 27, 2011

I know I've said this before, but I am blown away at how different the game is with tech-trading.

Basically, what is happening is that you are able to combine Ordos' willingness to tech-trade with anyone no matter the diplomatic relations with the human player's willingness to tech-trade with anyone, so you have a two-way connection here for a ton of trade that the AI's can't replicate, combined with the diplomatic boosts (or rather lack of penalties) you are getting by refusing to adopt a state religion.

Thus, you are able to keep a huge tech-lead even with a fairly small empire.

First, I wonder if we can default the game to no tech brokering, and second I wonder if there is some way we can increase the value of adopting a state religion or penalize non-adoption.
Perhaps we could add a "you lack faith" -2 relations diplomatic penalty between anyone who doesn't have a state religion and anyone who does have a state religion?
[Two civs without a state religion, as in the early game, should be fine. But once the AIs adopt, the player should be encouraged to pick a side and penalized for not doing so.]

On other matters:
I wonder if we should increase the hammer cost of space-ports (they are incredibly powerful), and increase the military production penalty for Kanly (or maybe it is ok?).

Jester Fool · Jun 27, 2011

Basically, what is happening is that you are able to combine Ordos' willingness to tech-trade with anyone no matter the diplomatic relations with the human player's willingness to tech-trade with anyone, so you have a two-way connection here for a ton of trade that the AI's can't replicate, combined with the diplomatic boosts (or rather lack of penalties) you are getting by refusing to adopt a state religion.

Thus, you are able to keep a huge tech-lead even with a fairly small empire.

For a time, I was running a religion - Imperial. However, it became too risky to stay in Imperial once the BG started hating on me. I could not adopt Shai-Halud (none of my cities had it) so the logical choice was to go back to no religion. I made a good strategic decision (and don't forget I am losing out on the happiness bonus that I would get if I stayed in Imperial). I do have a fairly small empire - that is the point (less cities to defend, less maintenance = more commerce devoted to science). Overexpansion on the higher levels is not good strategy IMO.

First, I wonder if we can default the game no no tech brokering, and second I wonder if there is some way we can increase the value of adopting a state religion or penalize non-adoption.
Perhaps we could add a "you lack faith" -2 relations diplomatic penalty between anyone who doesn't have a state religion and anyone who does have a state religion?
[Two civs without a state religion, as in the early game, should be fine. But once the AIs adopt, the player should be encouraged to pick a side and penalized for not doing so.]

Why? Is the design goal to prevent the human player from winning? Dune Wars has the same exact diplo mechanics (and tech options) that vanilla civ has (e.g. Free Religion civic, Mansa Musa). Also, why force the player into anything. The player should always "play the map". If anything, maybe the AI values should be tweaked a little bit. An example - in vanilla civ, Isabella will found a religion and then spam missionaries to foreign cities. She will then demand that you adopt her religion. Good players will normally accept because the alternative is most certainly an early DOW. Right now, the AIs don't really make any effort to spread their religion around. IMO, that is the problem, not my choice of no religion to avoid being dogpiled.

Ahriman · Jun 27, 2011

I made a good strategic decision (and don't forget I am losing out on the happiness bonus that I would get if I stayed in Imperial).

Sorry, I may have been unclear. I wasn't saying you made a bad decision given the circumstances, I am saying that I think that it might be a design problem that the decision was such a good one.
The loss of 1 happiness and culture is pretty trivial compared to the benefits of remaining friends and tech-trading with every faction.

I do have a fairly small empire - that is the point (less cities to defend, less maintenance = more commerce devoted to science). Overexpansion on the higher levels is not good strategy IMO.

Your empire and cities are very small for what I normally observe by the time that I am at your tech level.
You may set your science slider high, but your income is much lower than I would expect for that tech level. I usually find that once you can build tribunals, there is not much financial incentive to not have lots of cities (if you have good spots), so one isn't normally worse off by doing this.
But again, I don't think that this is because of any poor play on your part, merely because of the very rapid tech progression due to trading.

Why? Is the design goal to prevent the human player from winning?

No, but there is a design goal to preventing the human player from benefiting from strategies that the AI can't understand at all.
The AI always adopts a religion if it has one; it doesn't understand that not doing so might provide a large diplomatic benefit. And the AI suffers more from poor relations, because it can only undertake tech-trades when relations are good in both directions, whereas all the human player needs is that the other player be willing to trade with them.

Dune Wars has the same exact diplo mechanics (and tech options) that vanilla civ has

Not quite. First, it has a much "wider" tech tree. In vanilla, the tech tree is mostly long and narrow, and you can't get that far ahead without picking up most of the other techs in the same tier, and so you are mostly researching the same techs. Dune Wars isn't like that; the tech tree supports beelining much more and there are many more tech options, so trading lots of techs is a much more powerful tool than in vanilla.
Plus, diplomacy is different because there are a whole bunch of extra diplomacy modifiers (hard-coded feuds, civics, leader modifiers, etc.) that will prevent the AIs from trading with each other.
Also, there isn't a free religion civic?

But I don't really like tech-trading in vanilla Civ4 either.

Good players will normally accept because the alternative is most certainly an early DOW

I think that part of the problem is that an early DOW is not normally very scary.

Right now, the AIs don't really make any effort to spread their religion around. IMO, that is the problem, not my choice of no religion to avoid being dogpiled.

This is worth thinking about. But I normally note that most religions do spread to a few different factions, and without full tech trading the tech advancement rate is slower and so the early religions have a chance to spread more before a late one arrives. I certainly observe AI's spreading religion, when they can, though some religions don't spread normally. We didn't change anything in the missionary AI, though we did limit access to the missionaries for some religions and adjust spread rates and mechanics.
I don't really see that there aren't enough religions around, I merely worry that the benefits from adopting a state religion aren't large enough.
There are also some civics in religion that favor you adopting a state religion, which we don't have here.

Anyway, just musing about possibilities.

ChrisAdams3997 · Jun 27, 2011

Tech leads are also very useful for getting aggressors off your back :lol:

. With tech trading off, it can be a bit tougher to convince your rivals that peace is such a good idea when they have twice your power score. At any rate, Roma still came out with a little pillage gold, some damage to your country side, and free technology, so she didn't do too bad.

As for tech trading, I see no reason to limit options there. Let the player decide. I do think it might be good to look at making the AIs more willing to trade amongst each other at higher difficulty levels?

Ahriman · Jun 27, 2011

As for tech trading, I see no reason to limit options there. Let the player decide.

Sorry, again, I was unclear; I didn't mean preventing the player from deciding, I just meant changing the "default" in the options screen so that someone playing with "standard" settings had no tech brokering on.
If they want full tech trading, then they tick a box that says "enable tech trading".
Anyway, purely cosmetic, so no biggie.

I do think it might be good to look at making the AIs more willing to trade amongst each other at higher difficulty levels?

I worry that this will just increase tech rate, which is not really ideal. I think the right solution in general is less trading, not more.
I'm also not sure that this would be easy to do; can you make leaderhead XML parameters vary by difficulty level?

ChrisAdams3997 · Jun 27, 2011

Sorry, again, I was unclear; I didn't mean preventing the player from deciding, I just meant changing the "default" in the options screen so that someone playing with "standard" settings had no tech brokering on.
If they want full tech trading, then they tick a box that says "enable tech trading".
Anyway, purely cosmetic, so no biggie.

Ah, gotcha, yeah, if we think it's a good idea, it'd be easy.

I worry that this will just increase tech rate, which is not really ideal. I think the right solution in general is less trading, not more.

Increasing the tech rate could be a concern. Not sure how we could reduce the tech trading (obviously tech-brokering does that, but by the player's option) that wouldn't feel like it's stepping on the player's toes.

I'm also not sure that this would be easy to do; can you make leaderhead XML parameters vary by difficulty level?

I wouldn't have to affect the XML, just scale the threshold by a percent. But it's a moot point if it's not a good way to approach it. Maybe we could approach it not from a handicap direction, but an AI decision making direction. In particular, make them less likely to trade techs to someone in a very clear tech lead. That's what a human would very likely do. Would it be fun for the player though if everyone starts refusing to trade, even friends, if you are getting too much of a lead.

This is something I don't want to go overboard on if we address it at all, but the AI shouldn't be so much more easy to beat (technologically) with tech trading on. If we want to explore it more, should probably start a separate discussion on it of course

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Jester Fool · Jun 27, 2011

We didn't change anything in the missionary AI

The map is much different though. All missionaries should be able to cross the desert. I am currently on turn 250+ (turnsets 3-5 to be posted later) and Shai-Halud has still not been spread to any of my cities. I have been pleased or friendly having open borders with Margot the entire game. You would think she would send at least one missionary. I'm guessing the reason why is that there is no AI "to get on a boat, cross the ocean and spread religion". I am on a separate landmass from her so that is what makes the most sense to me.

Ahriman · Jun 27, 2011

I wouldn't have to affect the XML, just scale the threshold by a percent

The threshold is a string ('PLEASED', etc.) not a number.

but an AI decision making direction. In particular, make them less likely to trade techs to someone in a very clear tech lead. That's what a human would very likely do

That sounds like a good idea. But again, hard to do, because AFAIK the thresholds aren't numerical.

All missionaries should be able to cross the desert

I think that would lead to too much spread of the midgame religions, relative to the early ones.
Maybe we could set something up so that the midgame religions had the suspensor travel promotion if and only if you already had the suspensors tech?

I am currently on turn 250+ (turnsets 3-5 to be posted later) and Shai-Halud has still not been spread to any of my cities.

Shai-Hulad missionaries have sandrider, they can cross sand by themselves already.
It may be a distance thing; that you are simply too far away for the AI to bother spreading?

Jester Fool · Jun 27, 2011

Ahriman said:
Shai-Hulad missionaries have sandrider, they can cross sand by themselves already.
It may be a distance thing; that you are simply too far away for the AI to bother spreading?

I didn't know that (never bother to found it). You are probably right. BTW, just so you know, the AI has refused to trade away techs at different points in the game. I just didn't show the trades I couldn't make.

Dune University 1

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