Kris Swordsman -- I'm not really a"WTF!!" kinda guy, but if I was...

Well, statistically at least, you should just build a ton and the luck factor will be greatly diminished.


Actually.. as a mathematician, I'm thinking that what they did has some merit.. In Civ 5 it was always the case that if you could protect your op units trough upgrades and promotions for some time then you could destroy your neighbors with just a handful of super-strong soldiers.. Now.. if you build a lot of Kris swordsmen.. you have to build a bit more than usual to get at least 6-8 good ones.. but those good ones are significantly stronger than a normal OP unit. So.. actually.. they can be used for hilariously brutal 'Chuck Norris' units. I've had 6th level Jaguar-turned-longswordsmen take out cities by themselves and here you have something that is much much scarier. So .. you have to build a bit more of them to discard the useless ones.. But once you get to the magic number if you take great pains to avoid losing them, while leveling them up some it can steamroll easily. Easier done vs the AI of course.

Think as a mathematician. The possibility is really really fascinating here. Initially small buffs can turn out to be really strong the way the game is balanced (it is generally well balanced) and those are not small buffs at all!

Yeah. And the thing is, thanks to your extra free luxes, iron really isn't that hard to come by. Have any friendly civs? Trade them a spice and you can usually get four or so iron from them. Sure, you don't want to do that too much (you want lux-for-lux trades as well to keep happiness high if you're going to conquer) but that way you can get plenty of Kris Swordsmen up even if you're iron-poor yourself.

Babri said:

Personally I am fine with such little cons for units. But I think Kris could be changed slightly so you don't get 2 bad promo in a row. What do you think?

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I second this. My first Kris Swordmen got Enemy Blade, ok I can garrison them, no problem. The second one got Evil Spirit, then I decided to give it to CS because I need the iron to build a frigate.

Once I secured more iron, the third one got Enemy Blade (again!), gave it to my CS friend (again) and the last one I built got "Sneak Attack", but never really had chance to use it as I was peaceful for the rest of the game.

I wish for a code that it wouldn't get bad promotions in row like that.

I've always thought that the game prioritizes iron for some civs and de-prioritizes it for others. Am I right? I never seem to find Iron with Babylon (not my favorite civ actually, but I was trying to see if a longswordsmen rush is a viable strategy - it'd probably be a good one now that bronze working reveals iron..)

They could eliminate the bad promotions, but then the good ones would be like +10% combat strength - unexciting.

Yup, Indonesia is the gambler's civ. Which is fine. Not a great choice, imo, but not a horrendous one. Some people are going to like it, lots won't, but it's not going to ruin your game if you're not playing as Indonesia and you've got tons of other choices.

I was originally in the WTF category however I'm pretty happy with them now.

I built a city up that could produce them in two to three turns, found my nearest barbarian camp and "saved" it and then ran the new recruits out to see what I got. If they were bad, I deleted them for the gold.

I managed to pump out around 13 of them before someone on my team researched longswordsmen and out of those I have three that are the +1 movement and +1 attacks, as well as one that acts as a general and three that have the defense+healing as well as one or two of the others.

These things are beasts. But the thing I am most impressed with is the Candi. That is a POWERFUL garden improvement for faith generation. Since your own religion counts it comes out at a +4 faith building.

So Indonesia has some great happiness creation, a very good early unit that is well worth upgrading over the years and incredible faith generation via their building, which also leads to better GP generation due to it being the garden.

This civ is exceptionally well rounded.

This thread demonstrates how one should never take for granted that most people are reasonable. Suggestios to the effect that the way to address the issue is to not play Indonesia, or play them and not build swordsmen, or mod the game, are very ingenuous. If you find a problematic feature in a product, it isn't fixed by simply resigning yourself not to use that feature.

The number of pesters actually engaging in meaningful discussion--or even, for that matter, having fun with the topic--is disappointingly low. Even if I never played Indonesia again, i'd still find unusual civ design to be worth discussing.

Likewise, the idea that you just write off the bad ones seems to be to spam swordsmen and simply write off the bad ones feels impractical. Personally, I find that at that point in the game, I don't really have production to burn. The idea of spending 10 turns building a swordsman and sending it off to battle, only then to realize its cursed and gift it to a CS seems pretty wasteful at a point when waste is not a luxury a player has.

Drawmeus said:

They could eliminate the bad promotions, but then the good ones would be like +10% combat strength - unexciting.

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I propose a third option, which is to follow the same trend for cursed weapons that tends to be used in other games. The curse is usually a trade-off that bites the player in the rear in some way. For instance, there are cursed weapons in Borderlands that provide extra firepower, can drain your health, make you more vulnerable to damage, or slow your movement to a snail's pace. Essentially, it's a "press-your-luck" mechanic, which is generally much more interesting than a "draw-a-number" mechanic.

And actually, some of the weapons actually do utilize that concept. It's just weirdly inconsistent.

steveg700 said:

Likewise, the idea that you just write off the bad ones seems to be to spam swordsmen and simply write off the bad ones feels impractical. Personally, I find that at that point in the game, I don't really have production to burn. The idea of spending 10 turns building a swordsman and sending it off to battle, only then to realize its cursed and gift it to a CS seems pretty wasteful at a point when waste is not a luxury a player has.

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I think you're wrong on this one. I see it as supremely practical, however given the amount of turns you are suggesting it takes to build a swordsman ... It makes me think you either didn't build one of your cities to be a producer or you got a very bad draw in terms of starting territory.

When I invested in swordsmen, I had six cities. Two of which I had to make specifically to run out and plant to get enough iron to make my swordsman. I also had to spend 250g to ally a citystate to get the rest of the iron I needed.

I grew my capital with the Tradition tree and made sure to mine hills and farm river and build buildings to accelerate my capital growth. By doing this I was able to pump out swordsmen every 2 to 3 turns (every once in a while it would be 2 turns in stead of 3 so I'm guessing there is production carry over.)

So you being unable to make a swordsman in 10 turns is just a lack of production on your part. But what I really wanted to point out is the why I feel it is very practical to roll swordsmen off the assembly line and execute the defective ones. (yes, I war mongered this one). Your mileage may (and it looks like it does) vary.

With six cities this early in the game, all of which are growing with internal trade routes of one type or another ... I am controlling my budget so that I keep a nice income flowing and can buy buildings or city states in a reasonable amount of time. To that end, I have production to spare but not money. The goal of the cris swordsmen is to be excellent due to their mystical weapon and to make up the core of an elite army. To that end there is no room for inferior troops. Creating, attacking and deleting an inferior unit is not nearly as wasteful as keeping it around, paying its upkeep, paying to upgrade it over the course of the game and trying to find places for it so that I don't have to use it.

If you plan ahead and build a producing city (I find the capital to be the best since it will almost always be the most developed by the time swordsmen are out) you will be able to pump them out in under 5 turns, test them out and if they fail the test, bring them back home and heal them up so that when you delete them you get the maximum gold return on them.

Your way, is a way. I'm just saying that training and deleting them to create an elite core is note wasteful to my way of thinking.

PestWulf said:

Your way, is a way. I'm just saying that training and deleting them to create an elite core is note wasteful to my way of thinking.

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I don't have a way as of yet. More than likely, my way is just to give up on them and leave the iron branch alone, which is unsatisfying.

However, in that stage of the game, I don't see havin suficient production to produce a swordsman in two or three turns. That's 75 hammers, so we're talking 25+ hammers a turn before you even have workshops, and likely not much population for working mines.

Granted, ten turns was too much of a highball as well, but it's pretty easy for a city at that point to have only 12 production or so.

I also don't see having six cities at that point in time in most games. I guess you're selling luxes to the AI and/or demanding a lot of tribute to have five settlers by then. Personally, I'd find the unhappiness tough to bear.

callan said:

No, they couldn't. A civ with just those positive promotions for it's troops would be utterly broken.

In your opinion. Which I now utterly mistrust because you think having an army of ultra healing, blitz attacking, great generals - which is what would happen in 100% of games once your whole army had say 4 promotions each - is balanced....

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It is not THAT good. You need iron for the units, if you just happen to get it. You have to go out of your way to Bronze Working to even be able to produce them. You also have to have it fight and survive the fight to get the promotion. Other civilizations get positive perks with their units without effort.

The UU COULD have been implemented better.

Guardian_PL said:

Guys, please stop moaning, other abilities are godlike so I have no problem with one bad among eight others (as Eagle Pursuit noticed Enemy Blade is fine when used within your borders).

Indonesia is strong.

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People can criticize. It is not balanced.

You can say Indonesia is strong, but that doesn't mean they are. There are far too many stipulations to make playing Indonesia fair.

wigwam said:

You don't even have to not play as Indonesia—you can play as Indonesia and not build Kris Swordsmen. Focus on the other side of the tech tree, get Candis and work up to Navigation so you can go settle colonies overseas. The Kris penalties are one quarter (2/8) of one third (UA, UB, UU) of one of the nine civs in the expansion. Not worth all this fuss.

Besides, even if you do get stuck with a bunch of Enemy Blades/Evil Spirits units, just use them as garrison troops. If you opened with Tradition or Honor, you'll want a garrison in every city anyway, and they'll do the job just fine.

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It IS worth all of the fuss. Perhaps re-balancing can result from constructive criticism.

There shouldn't be negative promotions in a unique unit, simple as that. You should want to play a civ based on it's unique features. Your argument for 1/4 of 1/3 of one of the nine new civs doesn't apply to everybody. Some people just want to play as Indonesia, perhaps for their swordsman AND their UB. People have the right to criticize.

steveg700 said:

This thread demonstrates how one should never take for granted that most people are reasonable. Suggestios to the effect that the way to address the issue is to not play Indonesia, or play them and not build swordsmen, or mod the game, are very ingenuous. If you find a problematic feature in a product, it isn't fixed by simply resigning yourself not to use that feature.

The number of pesters actually engaging in meaningful discussion--or even, for that matter, having fun with the topic--is disappointingly low. Even if I never played Indonesia again, i'd still find unusual civ design to be worth discussing.

Likewise, the idea that you just write off the bad ones seems to be to spam swordsmen and simply write off the bad ones feels impractical. Personally, I find that at that point in the game, I don't really have production to burn. The idea of spending 10 turns building a swordsman and sending it off to battle, only then to realize its cursed and gift it to a CS seems pretty wasteful at a point when waste is not a luxury a player has.


I propose a third option, which is to follow the same trend for cursed weapons that tends to be used in other games. The curse is usually a trade-off that bites the player in the rear in some way. For instance, there are cursed weapons in Borderlands that provide extra firepower, can drain your health, make you more vulnerable to damage, or slow your movement to a snail's pace. Essentially, it's a "press-your-luck" mechanic, which is generally much more interesting than a "draw-a-number" mechanic.

And actually, some of the weapons actually do utilize that concept. It's just weirdly inconsistent.

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Oh I know, it is like the people that say that it is best to ignore things that you don't like (even if there is a chance for changing those things). "You don't like the way Amurica does things? Then get out of the country!" Isn't that intentional ignorance?

The Observer said:

It IS worth all of the fuss. Perhaps re-balancing can result from constructive criticism.

There shouldn't be negative promotions in a unique unit, simple as that. You should want to play a civ based on it's unique features. Your argument for 1/4 of 1/3 of one of the nine new civs doesn't apply to everybody. Some people just want to play as Indonesia, perhaps for their swordsman AND their UB. People have the right to criticize.

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Fair enough. So what's wrong with just using cursed units to garrison cities?

steveg700 said:

I don't have a way as of yet. More than likely, my way is just to give up on them and leave the iron branch alone, which is unsatisfying.

However, in that stage of the game, I don't see havin suficient production to produce a swordsman in two or three turns. That's 75 hammers, so we're talking 25+ hammers a turn before you even have workshops, and likely not much population for working mines.

Granted, ten turns was too much of a highball as well, but it's pretty easy for a city at that point to have only 12 production or so.

I also don't see having six cities at that point in time in most games. I guess you're selling luxes to the AI and/or demanding a lot of tribute to have five settlers by then. Personally, I'd find the unhappiness tough to bear.

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I wished I had a screen shot for you, we played last night though and have moved to the point of having longswordsmen so I can't really show you what I had before, only after.

I can describe however what I did to get the things you can't see happening. The first is the terrain. I have a fair amount of jungle in my non-capital so I went for culture in jungle so that all my new cities would accelerate my policy growth.

For policies, I opened honor to fight off the raging barbarians (we use that option alot when playing) and I focused the rest into Tradition making a B-line for the food options and to complete it as soon as possible for the aqueduct.

My capital probably started around size 10 when I began making swordsmen, then I had to wait a while because I used up my six iron and had to plant more cities. By the time we were at longswordsmen I was around size 17. Settlers took around 8 turn to build and I ended up buying about 3 of them making around 25 gold a turn and popping a great merchant spawn on a maritime city state for more growth as well as more iron.

I have no explanation for why your city has no population or production. My guess though is that you are doing a different strategy and not focusing on growing your capital city size as fast as possible. I go for the Artemis wonder a lot of times, get the granary asap, B-line to Landed Elite policy and then finish Tradition for the other food boosts. As long as I have a few 3 food squares like wheat, cows, oasis, etc and some river to farm I can pack on the city size rapidly and use the excess on production/gold resources while continuing to grow. Once you have a large population production values tend to be crazy high.

Founding six cities was because I needed the gold and iron. I plant them between 3 and 5 squares away and grow their population as fast as possible so that when I connect with a road they are size 4 and 5 and yield a positive cash return. Happiness is usually the sticky point for me since growing population in any city other than the capital has much more severe repercussions and it is usually a race to get my faith and technology up to the point of helping with that before I go unhappy.

Don't know if that helps you, but that's what I did anyway.

So I've actually tested this and I think that how it works depends on who first initiated the combat. For example, I was invading China with numerous KS, and each one that attacked a unit or city first got Recruitment or Heroism. The ones China attacked, though, got Evil Spirits and Enemy Sword. I tried my theory with my two my other neighboring countries and the theory stayed true. But I am still unsure if this is the case.

Do the unique resources remain if you capture an Indonesian city?

awesome said:

Do the unique resources remain if you capture an Indonesian city?

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yes, and the city is unrazeable

Yeah, I knew the second part, was just wondering about the first. Thanks.

I agree with the people who think the penalties should come with the large bonuses. That's better than rolling the dice with the either/or thing they have going now.