Football Thread No. 9

Janig said:

Messi's growth hormone treatment is rarely mentioned. Whenever I watch Barca play I have doubts over their integrity, given the rarity of growth hormone treatment and the rarity of Messi's ability. Additionally Messi's life seems to be a bit too clinical in the way his family were paid to come to Barca just so he could play football at such a young age. I know most footballers live extraordinary lives but after all theyre only entertainers, so Im not entirely comfortable watching a child slave perform for me. At least Ronaldo is forthright about being spoiled and selfish.

Click to expand...

If playing for a football team that he loved and enjoyed were the price to pay for one of my children reaching a normal height, it woudn't be a bad deal.

Pangur Bán;11439859 said:

Indeed. It's also physically and mentally exhausting to play against that, which is probably the real reason they score so many goals.

On the other hand, "the best team that has ever played football" are very close to having a disastrous season. There's probably a 50/50 chance they will lose both trophies, perhaps to Real Madrid.

Click to expand...

There's also the Cup to play for. At least one major trophy in four seasons running is something few teams have achieved.

MCdread said:

Spoiler :

I think it's the fact they make it look so easy that makes those passes look, well, easy side passes. But in fact what they're doing, or what they can do routinely if needed, is pass the ball around on 1st touch under pressure. Not all of them of course, but the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets and Piqué (possibly the spine of the team, from one end to the other) can do it all day long. No one else can do this. Not even a world class player educated at their academy, but only recently returned after many years abroad, like Fabregas is comfortable at it.

I find it beautiful although I admit I also find it lacking and limited on many other ocasions. It could also be interpreted, paradoxically, as a defensive style, a new type of catenaccio. Only whereas other teams in the past have used a very narrow approach to frustrate and dominate by using, either their massive physical or tactical superiority, Barcelona are the pioneers of doing the same thing via their technical superiority. So there you have it. Of the 'holy trinity' of football - athleticism, tactics and technique, they alone explored the last aspect to the utmost level, in the sense they've created a paradigm, so to speak, entirely dedicated to it (like, e.g., Herrera's Inter was a tactical masterpiece, or some of the northern european club teams of the 70s a product of athleticism).

But because technique is so much harder to perfect than tactics and physique, and as I've argued in this forum before (I think) I suspect Barcelona might be a one of a kind, a product of a special moment and special talents and might not change the face of football as miuch as other revolutionary teams did in the past.

That said I'd prefer another team to win the competitions they're playing this year for the simple reason I cannot stand the sense of moral entitlement some of their fans and players distill, as if they alone played the only morally acceptable brand of football.

I'll miss them when, eventually, they go away though. Like I said, they can be a thing of beauty and one of the reasons many people got tired of them is because they've banalized beauty.

Ok, here's my collection of disjointed, lazy saturday afternoon, thoughts about the subject, probably incoherent. Sorry about the long post.

Click to expand...

The same team or couple of teams winning everything gets boring, like in Scotland. But we'll miss this Barcelona as we miss the Galácticos from a decade ago (including Ronaldo the real one, a.k.a. 'el Gordo') and other teams.

Barcelona lack a number 9, maybe a Zlatan, someone to do the dirty work. The Henry-Messi-Eto'o trident was better than the current configuration even though the 2012 Messi is better than the 2008-09 one by much, no one's got replacements of the same quality. You need someone to do that, the not-so-pretty play. And, besides, Messi may be brilliant but he can't always struggle past a bunch of hunks, you need someone to do physical play.

We were robbed in the A-league Grand Final. The last minute penalty was clearly not even close to being a penalty and the player slipped up while trying to shoot for goal.

It was a disgraceful penalty, and extremely disappointing that it decided the match, but you were probably going to lose in extra time anyway given you were down to 10 men.

well, talk about barcelona lacking a plan b.

Pangur Bán;11440489 said:

Given the superior athleticism of modern players, there is a case for saying the best teams of recent years are the best teams ever.

Click to expand...

That's true. But otoh is somewhat like saying any half decent Physics or Maths professor of today is better than Newton. They know more about the subject than Newton ever dreamt, but you also have to look at the context, at what was there before and after, and at their contemporary peers.
I agree that discussion is a bit of moot point though. Barcelona certainly have a claim, like many others have, and it's a matter of opinion to compare teams from different periods.
Some people think the best they saw (or what they remember best, aka, the most recent) must have been the best there ever was; others instead believe if they saw it than there must have been something better they missed; and lots of old timers like to claim their seniority privileges - "those were the days kids".

Lambert Simnel said:

Excellent post, MCdread. Worth the price of admission by itself.

Click to expand...

Cheers Lambert.

Takhisis said:

Barcelona lack a number 9, maybe a Zlatan, someone to do the dirty work. The Henry-Messi-Eto'o trident was better than the current configuration even though the 2012 Messi is better than the 2008-09 one by much, no one's got replacements of the same quality. You need someone to do that, the not-so-pretty play. And, besides, Messi may be brilliant but he can't always struggle past a bunch of hunks, you need someone to do physical play.

Click to expand...

holy king said:

well, talk about barcelona lacking a plan b.

Click to expand...

They'd reply they do have a plan B: changing from 4 to 3 defenders often, and start with Alexis or not depending on whether they want more directness (of the Barcelona kind...) or not.
But yeah, they have this "style" and they believe they have to defend it do death. Like Busquets said after yesterday's defeat: "We lost but we were loyal to our style". As if that was the real trophy.
I agree with Tak: Messi-Henry-Eto'o offered something different. They would drive people mad in midfield and the unleash these fast direct forwards. Now they drive people mad in midfield, but depend much more on Messi to provide the spark.

As for Zlatan, he's brilliant (he was half of Inter's team and is more than half of Milan's now), but they bought him cause Real Madrid signed Ronaldo, Kaká and Xabi Alonso that Summer and Barça had to keep up. To explore his full potential they'd have had to change their game a lot though, which Guardiola was unwilling to do. Still they could have accommodated him somehow, but he and Guardiola ceased to be on speaking terms and one of the two had to leave.


Anyway, changing the topic: Everton pulled a massive result for us neutrals. Now it's only 3 points apart at the top of the PL and it really sets up next week's derby. That's easily the next best thing in domestic club football this season after Barça-Madrid.

yeah, well the english title race is on. at least until next week.

elswhere, west brom. seriously, how can you lose a game like this? you could almost call that an achievement.

This is completely shameful.

Link to video.
Apparently the Sevilla-Levante match yesterday was postponed by the Spanish federation because of the post-Barça v. Madrid press conference.

Before I forget about yesterday, 'Arry for England!

And finally, what a game at Old Trafford! I can't believe Everton lost to this Liverpool.
Well, I actually can, as derbies don't follow any sort of rules on statistics, and they tend to not follow the current trends of teams. As they say here "en los clásicos pasa cualquier cosa"

MCdread said:

They'd reply they do have a plan B: changing from 4 to 3 defenders often, and start with Alexis or not depending on whether they want more directness (of the Barcelona kind...) or not.
But yeah, they have this "style" and they believe they have to defend it do death. Like Busquets said after yesterday's defeat: "We lost but we were loyal to our style". As if that was the real trophy.
I agree with Tak: Messi-Henry-Eto'o offered something different. They would drive people mad in midfield and the unleash these fast direct forwards. Now they drive people mad in midfield, but depend much more on Messi to provide the spark.

As for Zlatan, he's brilliant (he was half of Inter's team and is more than half of Milan's now), but they bought him cause Real Madrid signed Ronaldo, Kaká and Xabi Alonso that Summer and Barça had to keep up. To explore his full potential they'd have had to change their game a lot though, which Guardiola was unwilling to do. Still they could have accommodated him somehow, but he and Guardiola ceased to be on speaking terms and one of the two had to leave.

Click to expand...

I think there were one or two personality clashes in the Ibrahimović and Eto'o cases. Centre-forwards tend to be 'selfish' compared to the rest of the team and need to be in the limelight. Meanwhile Messi has a limelight of his own, so you can have some leadership issues. This Messi is outscoring the Messi-Henry-Eto'o trident but having three people perform very well is always better than having just one of them perform better.

holy king said:

elswhere, west brom. seriously, how can you lose a game like this? you could almost call that an achievement.

Click to expand...

Blame it on Roy. Fulham now have as many league victories in Anfield as do Liverpool this year.

Well...City still has a chance. And they're at the Etihad next week. Just a win. That's all they need.

If they stay true to form, City can beat Newcastle, and can walk over QPR. All they need is a win next week over United. It can happen.

Well beating both United and Newcastle will be tough an I hope they don't.

Takhisis said:

This is completely shameful.

Link to video.
Apparently the Sevilla-Levante match yesterday was postponed by the Spanish federation because of the post-Barça v. Madrid press conference.

Click to expand...

The only shameful thing I see here is Spanish Federation dancing at music that Real Madrid and Barcelona are playing and most club managers accepting it.
In some other cases the time slots have been immovable as a tottem, less than 48 hours between same team matches or any other issues they have said that the timetable can not be changed, but if there is squalid press conference they move it.
Come on, when did a press conference became more interesting than a match between 2 teams that are struggling for being in Europe next year?

And no, I do not like what Sevilla supporters did.

Of course, that's what I consider shameful, the RFEF being so sychophantically bound to the big teams. What the Sevillanos did, while a bit excessive, is simply a sign that things have to change.

classical_hero said:

We were robbed in the A-league Grand Final. The last minute penalty was clearly not even close to being a penalty and the player slipped up while trying to shoot for goal.

Click to expand...

Look at it this way - titles decided by dodgy penalties, the A-League is becoming a real soccer league!

Football, not soccer.

Takhisis said:

Of course, that's what I consider shameful, the RFEF being so sychophantically bound to the big teams. What the Sevillanos did, while a bit excessive, is simply a sign that things have to change.

Click to expand...

Takhisis, I misunderstood you.

Man C v Man U will be some game.

However even if Man C beat Man U, I expect them to fail to beat Newcastle, but hopefully Man U will slip up against swansea as I cant see them not beating Sunderland whose players already appear to have started their summer break.

CL semi-final, crazy I tell ya!

that Chelsea nurse was quite nice though...

Barcelona are definitely loved by referees.

I feel for Ramires, awesome in both legs but wouldn't make the final now because of a frivolous booking.

Congrats to Chelsea. Torres finally repaying his money!

All those Chelsea bookings though, they'll barely have a team in the final.

So despite being the "best team ever to play football" and being cheating divers, Barcelona still couldn't do it against a 10 man team fifth placed in England? What does that say?

Wouldn't it be a great irony if all that Barcelona cheating actually made it easier for Real to do the double over them?

Chelsea played a great game, but Cech was superb. Barça looked desperate and tired, you could easily tell they need an elite forward, either get Villa back or someone like Ibrahimovic, who they foolishly let go.
Chelsea played with great courage and got rewarded. Hopefully Bayern will do the same against Real Madrid.

A great day for football fans all around the world!
The happiest day of the year for me.
Even UEFA coun't help Barcelon beat Chelsea today.
Great work from Lampard in defense. The sent off was hardly noticed.
Ramires can really inherit the place of King Essien in the squad.
And Torres.... Despite my hatred to this player, that had been a remarkable moment from him, to end this wonderful night.
Good luck for Guardiola in Qatar, hope to never see him again in the Champions League.