Patria Grande: Civilizations of the Americas

Pouakai said:

I'm going to say Tiwanaku

Click to expand...

Yep... It's probably the last South-American I'll make for now (I still have other 3 in store, an indigenous and a modern, but its time to focus on the announced ones), before heading north for central and north American civs...

I decided to make it as it's perhaps one of the few of that region and age that has a named leader (unlike the Nazca or the Wari), I recently read some info on it, and the leader is Huyustus, who divided the Andean region in four reigns (later used as a base for the Inca). He's also shrouded in myth though, as the myths say that he took his people to the Kingdom of Stars, to explain the apparent dissapearance of Tiwanaku's people...

Homusubi said:

That symbol at the back is almost exactly the same as the Aymara/Qullana icon.

Click to expand...

Which is why I had to change it. The Aymara, the Inca (both which formed the Qullana Confederation after the Colony) and the Mapuche (and all of the cultures in the Andean Region) inherited a lot from both Wari and Tiwanaku, and the Chakana (the symbol) and religious symbols were specially developed in Tiwanaku.

The reason I'm making them is mostly because their influence plays a huge role in the post-colonial times. As many cultures started tracing back their roots to the Chakana symbol, and started using it as a ways of protest against Modern Countries, specially in Bolivia.

So yeah... They'll be a Faith-Science oriented civ, with strong Tourism in the end as a nod of their cultural influence throught the Andes, still building up the details. But this is a rough sketch of them:

Tiwanaku Civilization

For now no more civs will be announced, at least until 3 of the announced ones get finished, right now we have the following in the WIP space:

• Argentina: The Leaderhead needs some tweaks, lacks icons... As the Tango Hall will likely replace the Musician's Guild in BNW, can't be finished just yet. Testing out ways of working out the Descamisado's Great Person generation.
• Mapuche: Leaderhead and Icon done. Waiting for the announcement of the last BNW civs in hopes for an interesting mechanic that could work for the Mapuche, and for a Farm Bug Fix whether by Ekmek or Firaxis.
• Chile: Leaderhead in process. This one could get out without the need of BNW, so might be done before July.
• Tupi: Leaderhead in process. Waiting for a Farm Bug Fix.
• Tiwanaku: Leaderhead done. Working out on the details of the civ.

Leugi said:

Tiwanaku Civilization

UA: ?
UU: Amauta: Replacement for both the Great Scientist and Great Prophet, so may be adquired through Scientist specialists and through Faith. May spread religion, discover a technology, or build a Solstice Holy Site.
UB: Solstice Gate: Replacement for the Library. Grants Faith aside from Science. Generates Tourism after Archaeology is discovered.
​

Click to expand...

Ooh, I like it. The UU is a very clever idea. Do you know whether it'll be possible to scale the amount of science he gives? It'd be great if you could spread religion twice, then get the equivalent of three turns of science (instead of the full six) if you bulbed him, rather than his missionary ability precluding him for being used for anything else.

wigwam said:

Ooh, I like it. The UU is a very clever idea. Do you know whether it'll be possible to scale the amount of science he gives? It'd be great if you could spread religion twice, then get the equivalent of three turns of science (instead of the full six) if you bulbed him, rather than his missionary ability precluding him for being used for anything else.

Click to expand...

Well, scaling it (as in when using once the spread, the tech is lower) isn't possible without some odd lua tweaks... But doing some testing, spreading doesn't lock researching, which is nice... So maybe it will develop the science of 6 turns instead of 8...

BTW, all hail Bernardo O'higgins

People might get confused seeing as it looks like he's French. (even though we all know he's Chilean and presumably Irish originally).

Homusubi said:

People might get confused seeing as it looks like he's French. (even though we all know he's Chilean and presumably Irish originally).

Click to expand...

Yes, O'higgins has Irish ancestry... Of Noble Cast even, but he was illegitimate and never met his father...

Also, this is another reason to despise the fact that so many countries have those colors on their flags hehe... So yeah, it's a hard thing to fix however, without going to anti-historical stretches anyway...

BTW, I'm having some issues choosing things for Chile:

Leader: Bernardo O'higgins
UA: By Reason or By Force: Cultural cost of getting new tiles reduced. Bonus Combat in Foreign Territory.
Or:
Coastal Cities generate more Culture. Great Admirals may Culture Bomb.
UU: Independence Squadron Increased chances of Great Admirals, may capture enemy ships.
...
UB: Medialuna: Replaces, Circus or Theatre? Grants Happiness, and increases production of Mounted units?
UB: Saltpeter Works: Replaces workshop, aside from the production bonus... I don't know
UU: Chinchinero: Replacement for Great Musician... and still I don't know...

Personally, I like the second UA, the Independence Squadron (Maybe give it its Spanish name?) and Medialuna

I was kicking around the idea of a Chilean civilization a few weeks ago. I was never really satisfied with what I came up with, but maybe the ideas would be interesting to you:

By Reason or by Force: +5% to Science for each Technology known to another Civilization but unknown to you. Bonus towards Production of Naval Units, up to +30% depending on how many Naval Units neighboring civilizations possess.
Protected Cruiser (replaces Ironclad): 55 Strength, 6 Movement
Huaso (replaces Horseman): As Horseman, but heals at double rate. Can build Farms and Pastures.

The UU (based on the cruiser Esmeralda) would basically be a pre-Electricity destroyer, without the sight bonus or the bonuses against submarines and aircraft. I'm not sure the UA is even possible, but I wasn't very happy with the idea anyway.

I think Chile really should be naval-based, considering the huge importance of the navy to Chile's history and economic structure.

albie_123 said:

By Reason or by Force: +5% to Science for each Technology known to another Civilization but unknown to you. Bonus towards Production of Naval Units, up to +30% depending on how many Naval Units neighboring civilizations possess.
Protected Cruiser (replaces Ironclad): 55 Strength, 6 Movement
Huaso (replaces Horseman): As Horseman, but heals at double rate. Can build Farms and Pastures.
.

Click to expand...

I kind of like the idea of the UA depending of other civs... However that's quite hard to balance as games will usually have more or less civs and you can't really control the other civ's movements, so they may produce no naval things at all. I'm not sure the technology bonus is fitting though.

About the Huaso... Well, Gran Colombia and Argentina already have a Mounted replacement, so I want some more variety, hence I'm avoiding Huasos this time... (perhaps representing them with the Medialuna, so the cultural reference is still there)

And the Protected Cruiser (Esmeralda) was pretty much a ship the First Squadron (which I'll now call Escuadra Nacional) managed to capture, so I think the Escuadra Nacional as a capturing unit would be funnier hehe.

But the ideas are interesting, so I'm sort of merging them now...

albie_123 said:

I think Chile really should be naval-based, considering the huge importance of the navy to Chile's history and economic structure.

Click to expand...

Definitively. And also, in its beginnings Chile got important admirals and ships from other countries and started developing their own, so giving more importance to Great Admirals would be interesting. So right now I have 4 options:

Option A

• UA: By Reason or by Force: Coastal cities generate points towards Great Admirals and have reduced culture cost for tile gaining. Great Admirals may be expended to adquire territory.
• UU: Escuadra Nacional: Replacement for the Frigate Increased chance of generating Great Admirals, may capture enemy ships.
• UB: Medialuna: Replacement for Circus, requires Horses or Cattle. Aside from the Happiness bonus, receives a production bonus.

The idea behind the Medialuna is giving a way of using Horses and Cattle in an indirect way to get Naval units faster, as the production bonus will be useful for that too.

Option B

• UA: By Reason or by Force: Coastal cities educed culture cost for tile gaining. Increased Combat Strenght in Foreign Territory. Great Admirals may be expended to adquire territory.
• UU: Escuadra Nacional: Replacement for the Frigate. Gains experience faster. (And thus generates Great Admirals Faster) may capture enemy ships.
• UB: Saltpeter Works: Replacement for Seaport. 5% more production towards naval units than the Seaport (20%). Sea Resources generate +1 Culture aside from the production and gold bonus.

So.. Less focused on Great Admirals, but more on combat strenght. The culture gain from Saltpeter Works will help coastal cities expand even faster.

Option C

• UA: By Reason or by Force: Coastal cities generate points towards Great Admirals and have reduced culture cost for tile gaining. Great Admirals may be expended to adquire territory.
• UU: Escuadra Nacional: Replacement for the Frigate. Gains experience faster. (And thus generates Great Admirals Faster) may capture enemy ships.
• UB: Medialuna: Replacement for Circus, requires Horses or Cattle. Aside from the Happiness bonus, receives a culture bonus.

Kind of a middle ground, UA from option A, UU from option B. The Medialuna produces culture instead of production, to help territory expand faster in coastal cities.


Option D

• UA: By Reason or by Force: Coastal cities have reduced culture cost for tile gaining. Great Admirals may be expended to adquire territory. Allied City-States may gift Great Admirals.
• UU: Escuadra Nacional: Replacement for the Frigate. Gains experience faster. (And thus generates Great Admirals Faster) may capture enemy ships.
• UB: Medialuna: Replacement for Circus, requires Horses or Cattle. Aside from the Happiness bonus, receives a culture bonus.

The same as C, but the UA focuses on getting Admirals from other civs, however, from City-States so you have to play a diplomatic game too...

Less focus on the GA, the better, but at the same time, more focus on the navy, the better. Even with the Chilean GA buff (that is, using them to gain territory), they are still the worst Great Person type by a country mile. Option B, of the four you listed, seems to me the best.

albie_123 said:

Less focus on the GA, the better, but at the same time, more focus on the navy, the better. Even with the Chilean GA buff (that is, using them to gain territory), they are still the worst Great Person type by a country mile. Option B, of the four you listed, seems to me the best.

Click to expand...

Well, yeah, the GA is quite bad... I sort of wish there were ways of improving Great Admirals in the UA though... What would make GA good?

Also, another option is Option B, but with a Medialuna with production and culture boost.

Leugi said:

Well, yeah, the GA is quite bad... I sort of wish there were ways of improving Great Admirals in the UA though... What would make GA good?

Also, another option is Option B, but with a Medialuna with production and culture boost.

Click to expand...

You could give Admirals the Khan ability and allow ships to heal if they are near one.

Option D.

Ok... I'm entering exams for this week, so I may not be able of finishing Chile before that. At any rate, this is likely how it will be:

UA: By Reason or By Force: Coastal cities have reduced culture cost for tile gaining. Gain a combat bonus on enemy territory. Great Admirals receive the Medic Promotion and may be expended to adquire territory.
UU: Escuadra Nacional: Replacement for the Frigate. Gains experience faster. (And thus generates Great Admirals Faster) may capture enemy ships.
UB: Medialuna: Replacement for Circus, requires Horses or Cattle. Aside from the Happiness bonus, receives a culture bonus.

Also, I'm planning something fun, as a long-term plan with Patria Grande. Which is an Independence Scenario (maybe of only South-America). The idea is pretty simple, you start without any settlers as one of the Modern American Civs, with 3 Libertadores (with different abilities depending on the Civ) and some units.

Most of the land is conquered by the Audiencias (representing the Colonization), plus Brazil (because its independence was a bit different) and the native civs (Mapuche, Aymara-Quechua, Tupi, etc.) all of which aren't playable.

The winning condition will be quite simple, "Building up the Patria Grande", which means that you should own 90% of the map. The idea is simple, the first phase of the scenario is recovering cities from the Audiencias, the best you do at this, the better for achieving victory; however the condition is disabled and peace/war states are locked until all of the Audiencias cities are captured. After that, diplomacy unlocks, and so the victory condition; so you'll little by little have to fight with the other American civs to achieve the Patria Grande, pretty much like what happened historically sort of... Of course you can decide to whether get cities by conquering or by culture-flipping (as we'll have tourism activated), and you can decide whether to conquer or ally with native civs.

Opinions?

How can a coastal city get a combat bonus in enemy territory?

Homusubi said:

How can a coastal city get a combat bonus in enemy territory?

Click to expand...

With a bad redaction it seems... (Of course there's also ways of making a Coastal City receive a fake building that grants a promotion that gives such a bonus to units trained in the city too, but that's not what I meant)

So fixed hehe.

I like the ideas for chile so far. I'm not too keen of having a special great person, as they happen too rarely. The reason why it's ok for gran colombia is because they get another UU in addition to their special great person.

A random idea. How does the Chile UU help them? If Chile is naval based do you think they should have something to help them make great admirals? In general great admirals are kinda meh. Chile should have be really awesome, so that I feel excited when one appears. Your ideas, are already on track of that.


Last idea. You are the guy that broke the music barrier for civ. Could it be possible to make our own DOM speech? This is just an idea I got in my head. I know someone that is a aspiring voice actor. Maybe I can convince him to do a DOM speech for a mod? It wouldn't be too hard to do, and it would be kinda cool having your own work be used for a mod.

ubergeneral said:

I like the ideas for chile so far. I'm not too keen of having a special great person, as they happen too rarely. The reason why it's ok for gran colombia is because they get another UU in addition to their special great person.

A random idea. How does the Chile UU help them? If Chile is naval based do you think they should have something to help them make great admirals? In general great admirals are kinda meh. Chile should have be really awesome, so that I feel excited when one appears. Your ideas, are already on track of that.

Click to expand...

Well, right now these are the synergies:

• Chilean Admirals heal per turn to adjacent ships, and Escuadras Nacionales generate more Admirals with experience as well as capture enemy ships. Having an Admiral near your Escuadras should be very useful to fully heal captured ships, and also allows for a funny 7 tiled armada.
• Fancy thing about Escuadras Nacionales is that they won't lose both their promotions upon upgrades, if you manage to get a veteran Escuadra and transform it into a dreadnought, it will still be able of capturing ships and have lots of experience. You'll want your ships to survive, so the extra healing from the Admirals will be useful.
• There's actually a contradiction, now that I notice. Great Admirals grab territory, so you'll actually not get the Foreign Combat Bonus should you use them like that in the middle of a battle... Still useful to irk the enemy I guess, but I may actually remove that ability.
• Also, there's a synergy between the Medialuna and the reduced Culture cost of territory, as more culture means faster territory. I could also make it so it gives +1 culture for each source of cattle or horses, which might be interesting too.

ubergeneral said:

Last idea. You are the guy that broke the music barrier for civ. Could it be possible to make our own DOM speech? This is just an idea I got in my head. I know someone that is a aspiring voice actor. Maybe I can convince him to do a DOM speech for a mod? It wouldn't be too hard to do, and it would be kinda cool having your own work be used for a mod.

Click to expand...

I suppose it could work, but the voice acting would have to be good ... If you're willing to try, you may try with Bolivar, since he's probably the most known of the pack by now...

Talking about audio. I have these ideas for Chilean Music. The Peace music is a traditional Cueca, a musical style that emerged in colonial chile, but extended a bit to Argentina and a lot to Bolivia. The second one is a bit more orchestral.

Peace

Link to video.

War

Link to video.

Another option for War is:

Link to video.

BTW, finally managed to upload one of the mods to Steam!

Steam for Gran Colombia Civilization!

Bolivia's Miner's Radio Station seems a bit weak: it could have +2 or even +3 per relevant luxury tile that late in the game, or just +1 to every mine and quarry.

The flavor is perfect though, and the UA is so fun and strong it might be fine as-is.

Regardless, I love the flavor of these civs, though some are too militaristic for my peaceful play-style.