Immortal game -- need strategy help!

well she fielded longbows at the time of "finishing" Ghandi

that said i am done with it :) not only I miss so much BUG and BtS, but the map itself didn't scrub me right way to try to get my first Immortal victory in Warlords.

To me the lower happy cap in Warlords makes generating "right map" too overpowering. That's 20% less early game population in cap and 25% in other cities without any early game happy.

Have to say didn't enjoy it the way I would have liked, but made for interesting "find the right strategy for early game" though, so it somehow balanced ;-)

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it. I have never played BTS, but you are not the first guy to tell me Warlords is tougher than BTS. The happy cap is especially difficult on this map, because there are zero happy resources until you take out Ghandi. Just taking Ghandi's land, I could easily win via Cultural Victory with your position. War-mongering is really not my style, but I will play around a bit more with the HA rush to see whether I can do it. Anyway, thanks again!

(BTW, Prague is one of my favorite European cities. The statutes and architecture on some of your buildings are magnificent.:)
 
well she fielded longbows at the time of "finishing" Ghandi

that said i am done with it :) not only I miss so much BUG and BtS, but the map itself didn't scrub me right way to try to get my first Immortal victory in Warlords.

To me the lower happy cap in Warlords makes generating "right map" too overpowering. That's 20% less early game population in cap and 25% in other cities without any early game happy.

Have to say didn't enjoy it the way I would have liked, but made for interesting "find the right strategy for early game" though, so it somehow balanced ;-)

I did the HA rush. I paused it at 50 BC and Ghandi has only one small city remaining. Other than that, though, I came out a lot worse than you. Ghandi did not have nearly as much advancement in my game, as he did in your. I don't get it. I started the war around 600BC, which I figure was around same as you. So what happened? Strange.:confused:
 

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well in all those shadows ghandi was always good techer, but sometimes he was stupidly quick.

you maybe got the slower speed techer one...

Oh I think I traded HBR with Elisabeth right before the DoW on Ghandi...that's some beakers you probably miss.
 
well in all those shadows ghandi was always good techer, but sometimes he was stupidly quick.

you maybe got the slower speed techer one...

Oh I think I traded HBR with Elisabeth right before the DoW on Ghandi...that's some beakers you probably miss.

It's hard to believe he founded both Buddism and Hinduism. That is a rare duo. There must be nothing but war-mongers on the other continent. Once I spread Hinduism, Buddism, and Christianity around to the cities and build the three shrines, that will be nice finanical compensation for his low tech rate, I suppose.
 
well in all those shadows ghandi was always good techer, but sometimes he was stupidly quick.

you maybe got the slower speed techer one...

Oh I think I traded HBR with Elisabeth right before the DoW on Ghandi...that's some beakers you probably miss.

That was a good idea -- trading HBR to Lizzy. After two days on that map, I grew weary and started a new game. Usually, I can see where to put my first 4 cities, but this new game is a puzzler. Relax, I am not expecting you to shadow again, but if you'd take a quick look at my position and suggest where you would put your third and fourth cities, I would be very grateful.

As you can see, Hannibal and J. Caesar are quite close and threaten to box me in. I am pretty sure Frederick is to the South and Sal is even farther South, so I am not concerned about them for the moment.

The Memphis placement to get the Horses is a no-brainer, but I've been thinking a long time about where to put the third city -- I think you'll see why.

Of course, if there are any other Warlords players who would take a look, I'd be grateful. Thanks.:)
 

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  • Vranasm 1 BC-2200.CivWarlordsSave
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you should have placed city 2 1N to have the corn and horses 1st ring. Always place city with 1st ring food if you're not creative and sometimes even then if settling food 2nd ring doesn't have obvious advantage

there could be good discussion about placing it 1NE (that 2nd city) to be on river and have access to more flood plains, but leaves you vulnerable for a long time (which I forget you have copper...so place it 1NE on river with corn first ring).

city 3 is obviously between wet rice and gold in the east on river (one of those flood plains) if you can beat Hannibal to that spot.

If you work that wet corn instead of stone in capital you can have settler in 5 instead of 6

You should have probably grew to size 3 before settlers/workers though... would have to run some SS to confirm, but with 3 very strong tiles it is almost obvious.

The gold makes this game a lot more bearable then the previous one.
Building Mids is very strong option

City 4 could be probably on the coast sheep+furs

City 5+ are spots fish+cows (exception for the rule of food 1st ring), then some of the jungle south from cap - sugar+dye, sugar+banana etc needs more scouting.
There is that corn which is really far away which is pretty interesting.

If you manage to get city 3 in the flood plains near hannibal I told about then I think there is no need for any kind of rushing, since you should have 7-8 cities easily, the jungle usually slows AI settling pattern.

What I saw by AI's in Warlords is a bit different behavior then in BTS where they are crazy with settling in your backyards (they don't do this in BTS) so watch out for this.

Those 2 gold should allow you pretty big rex with some cottages in city 2 and 3

Capital should stay on S/W duty with OF into Mids once you hit slavery and do 5->3 cycle.
 
I like Memphis where it is. Food is not a problem, since I have three floodplains.. Moving it North creates too much overlap with the city I plan for the North coast that will use the corn and sheep. Besides, Memphis will have access to the corn pretty soon after I build Stonehenge in Thebes.

As you say, the spot to the East with the rice, gold, and second Stone tile would be very nice, but I'll be surprised if Hannibal or J.C. don't get it ahead of me. I was wondering whether you would mention any diplomatic considerations in your third city recommendation. On this map, I want to avoid "close borders" tensions with J.C. Let J.C. and Hannibal butt up against each other East rather than have a city over there sandwiched between J.C. and Hannibal getting cultural/military pressure from both sides. I can diplomatically concentrate my expansion North and South. I have a hunch that J.C. and Hannibal will end up at war, or, if they end up with the same religion, I can join them and have two strong protectors. What do you think?

Therefore, realistically, I am thinking of putting the third city on that elbow in the river between the mountains. I don't want Hannibal settling in there, and it gives me access to the other gold.

I am VERY interested in getting a seaport South with the all the luxury crops, grasslands, and corn. That has Legendary City potential. But it is in jungle, so it would be a drag on the economy until I get Iron Working, Calendar, and a crew of workers down there. Do you think it will still be available as my fourth or fifth city? The timing will be critical. I may send a "Sleeping Settler" down there to make sure I get the spot, even if that means I settle there a little prematurely.

Thanks for the suggestions. You always give me good ideas to think about.
 
update on my game:

I advanced the game to mid 13th century AD. My only trading partner was Gahndi and he was not teching that much with a single city. Lizzy really advanced and liberated Asto.

So once I had stabalized the economy and built a sizable force of cats, swords, WC and a few spears, i dowed Lizzy. She was defending with knights, Maces, Pikes, XB and LB. It was funny to watch cats just collateral damaging these advanced units before swords, axes and WC capture cities. I was able to capture 5 cites and culture flip another cityand about to capture her current capital before calling for peace. She will be left with a tundra city to NE. I will post the game after playing the current turn.

Within last few turns we met Alex, Brennus and another AI I can not remember. They are all very advance but will likely fall once Egypt catach up with techs.

I am going to replay this game from the time I claimed the marble city and do a regualar calvary game with about 8 city empire. Plan is basically to liberate Nationalism and tech MT and GP. Sort of a beeline.
 
:lol:
update on my game:

I advanced the game to mid 13th century AD. My only trading partner was Gahndi and he was not teching that much with a single city. Lizzy really advanced and liberated Asto.

So once I had stabalized the economy and built a sizable force of cats, swords, WC and a few spears, i dowed Lizzy. She was defending with knights, Maces, Pikes, XB and LB. It was funny to watch cats just collateral damaging these advanced units before swords, axes and WC capture cities. I was able to capture 5 cites and culture flip another cityand about to capture her current capital before calling for peace. She will be left with a tundra city to NE. I will post the game after playing the current turn.

Within last few turns we met Alex, Brennus and another AI I can not remember. They are all very advance but will likely fall once Egypt catach up with techs.

I am going to replay this game from the time I claimed the marble city and do a regualar calvary game with about 8 city empire. Plan is basically to liberate Nationalism and tech MT and GP. Sort of a beeline.

Interesting. I have never tried for a domination win in my several years of playing the game. I play exclusively for Cultural Victory. That's how I enjoy the game. Go figure. Anyway, I actually do something similar to your strategy in reverse. I build a ton of Cats with collateral damage promotions, and then when the enemy declares on me and comes with a big stack of Knights, Maces, etc., I pounded the stack with Cats until they can be defeated by WCs, spears, axes. As you saw, it works very well.

To some extent, you can do the same with Trebs against even more advanced units. I've done that, too, in emergencies. In that regard, Lizzy was stupid not to build some Trebs to defend cities against your strategy, but then, we all know the AI plays with the military intelligence of Dan Qauyle.:lol:
 
You could just play it out... winning isn't everything, and although it is infuriating to be beaten by some lukewarm ai you learn quite a bit about wether your position is one of comfort or salvation. Hell, I learned to play on Monarch simply because of that... About as fun as learning to play Halo: Combat Evolved on legendary (but I did, and I was/am great mp)
 
:lol:

Interesting. I have never tried for a domination win in my several years of playing the game. I play exclusively for Cultural Victory. That's how I enjoy the game. Go figure. Anyway, I actually do something similar to your strategy in reverse. I build a ton of Cats with collateral damage promotions, and then when the enemy declares on me and comes with a big stack of Knights, Maces, etc., I pounded the stack with Cats until they can be defeated by WCs, spears, axes. As you saw, it works very well.

To some extent, you can do the same with Trebs against even more advanced units. I've done that, too, in emergencies. In that regard, Lizzy was stupid not to build some Trebs to defend cities against your strategy, but then, we all know the AI plays with the military intelligence of Dan Qauyle.:lol:

Actually trebs are extreamly weak when not attacking cities. Their base strength is only 4 compaired to 5 of cats. Try cats next time instead of trebs if defending.

Lizzy is not a unit spammer and I knew it. She defended well with knights and maces but I had plenty of units and I attacked with 2 main stacks and a suicide stack of 5 cats and 2-3 WC. That prevented AI from focusing on one city to defend. Also Elizabeth does not have that much attack courage. The game would have been much harder if it has been a Unit spammer. Of course I would have attacked that Ai instead of Gandhi.

Come to think of it, I would have been better off had I attacked Elizabeth and kept Gandhi as a Friend since I would Have shared his religion. Since I relocated my capital, the cost would not have been that much more to maintain the empire.
 
Actually trebs are extreamly weak when not attacking cities. Their base strength is only 4 compaired to 5 of cats. Try cats next time instead of trebs if defending.

Lizzy is not a unit spammer and I knew it. She defended well with knights and maces but I had plenty of units and I attacked with 2 main stacks and a suicide stack of 5 cats and 2-3 WC. That prevented AI from focusing on one city to defend. Also Elizabeth does not have that much attack courage. The game would have been much harder if it has been a Unit spammer. Of course I would have attacked that Ai instead of Gandhi.

Come to think of it, I would have been better off had I attacked Elizabeth and kept Gandhi as a Friend since I would Have shared his religion. Since I relocated my capital, the cost would not have been that much more to maintain the empire.

You are obviously a very experienced war-monger! Would you please give me some advice on my current game? I will attach the file. Basically, my starting position is trapped on a peninsula with Monty breathing down my throat. So, I figured that if war is inevitable, we may as well get started. My starting Warrior just did a great job. He destroyed Monty's horse stable, stole the worker, and destroyed the corn field!

Question: What do do next?

My basic idea is...

1. Build WC's in Thebes to happy cap. I figure he has a couple cities up there now and I want to send two WC's to each so that he can't send out any more settlers.

2. Then make Settler and put Memphis up there by the other pigs. Should it make WC's or Barracks first? I don't know.

3. Should I tech towards Horse Archers, or should I be able to kill him with just WC's? It would be nice to tech stuff like Masonry, Sailing, etc. but can I afford it.
With BW, should I massively chop and whip WC's in Thebes?

When it comes to launching wars, I am strictly a minor-league player. Please advise!
 

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  • Monty 1 BC-2840.CivWarlordsSave
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You are obviously a very experienced war-monger! Would you please give me some advice on my current game? I will attach the file. Basically, my starting position is trapped on a peninsula with Monty breathing down my throat. So, I figured that if war is inevitable, we may as well get started. My starting Warrior just did a great job. He destroyed Monty's horse stable, stole the worker, and destroyed the corn field!
I am not a true monger but find waring extreamly needed as the levels get higher. A true monger will chop and whip units. I only chop :)

I can not see the save now but with Monti you are better off rushing him (even if you share religions since he will stab you while being pleased). But as you said you already stole a worker. So getting ridof him is safest

Question: What do do next?

My basic idea is...

1. Build WC's in Thebes to happy cap. I figure he has a couple cities up there now and I want to send two WC's to each so that he can't send out any more settlers.
Actually if you know where teh copper is, then prevent him from getting that but other wise let him found some cities for you. if he already a city near copper just park a WC within visible site to deter and then capture workers when he become desparate. Once you get about 6 WC ask for cease fire. when he pull his units out of the city to protect workers, DOW. You will need 2 WC for each Archer, 1 for chariots and Axes. Attack from diagonal tiles on that same turn.

2. Then make Settler and put Memphis up there by the other pigs. Should it make WC's or Barracks first? I don't know.
Let Thebes go into unhappy if you have food and then double/triple pop whip a settler with maximum overflow hammers to another WC. Ideally you would just capture cities from Monti during this time. If you are already in a war, the barracks delay things. So no.

3. Should I tech towards Horse Archers, or should I be able to kill him with just WC's? It would be nice to tech stuff like Masonry, Sailing, etc. but can I afford it.
With BW, should I massively chop and whip WC's in Thebes?
If you have build about 8-10 WC when ready to attack( right after asking for Cease Fire(Not Peace)) to start with and keep on supplying until you reach your objective, then you are fine. Make sure you have both Pottary and Writing as a minimum if you are rushing a capital more than 10 tiles.
When it comes to launching wars, I am strictly a minor-league player. Please advise!

If you just want to keep him backward, then send 1-2 units for each city he has and just continue harrassing and pillaging while you learn techs. Then once you get Cats, the game is over for him.

The problem you are going to run into is his UU. 50% chance in open ground. So just kill him off is the best advice and raze cities as needed.
 
sending monty into military mode wasn't clever... tried couple of turns and it really is too nasty.

you need barracks and outnumber his number of archers which is almost impossible.
 
cease fire? well not didn't... Ramess has talent to bring impossible games to forums :)

"I resemble that remark!" You're right. It is impossible to spam WC's at a 2-to-1 rate against his Archer factory. But I did find a way to capture his capital in world-record time at Immortal.

Here is the formula...

1. Use Warrior to lure his 3rd Archer toward Thebes and into a WC ambush. Then promote the WC to Combat-1.

2. As soon as the Horse stable is completed, immediately use both workers to build road to Monty's capital.

3. You get there with the two WCs and your two Warriors, just in time before he can build his 3rd Archer. Use the Warriors to soften up the Archers, then kill them with the WC's. It worked. I attached the game.

From here, I am just going to follow Htadus advice and let him make some more cities for me to pillage and capture -- making sure he never gets metal to build his UU. I should have time to build mids in Thebes and use his capital to build units needed to keep him on a short leash until he has maxed his city development. Agree?
 

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His UU does not require any resources. That is why I said that will be the biggest problem since all ne need is IW and he have a habit of teching it soon....sort of like JC and preats.

Now I am confused. :confused:

You said to let him spread more cities to pillage. But if I let him do that, how long will it take for him to get to IW?

Is the idea to tech my way to Cats before he techs up to IW? If I build mids and library in Thebes and Library in his capital, should that do it along with the aggressive pillaging?
 
Anyhow, I forged ahead and decided to take a conservative approach, and even then it was tough. The advantages the software gives AI at Immortal level are ridiculous. I surrounded his second city with WCs. So, I had three cities to his one. I ran Libraries with max scientists, Stonehenge in Memphis, Pyramids and Science Academy in Thebes. And even with all that, he got to IW the same time I got to Construction. The date was 725 B.C. His maintenance costs FINALLY kicked in and his unit count maxed out at 3 Jaguars and 7 Archers. I launched my attack with 10 Cats and 7 WCs. As the odds had it, I think I could have done it with a little less. I destroyed Monty in 75 B.C. I think both his cities have Legendary City potential, but Memphis might do a little better with Stonehenge and Great Lighthouse (coming soon). That will give me 7 total cities with 3 good Legendary candidates.

The bad news is that this continent is loaded with tough customers: Saladin, Shaka, Mao, and Mehmed. Sal founded Buddism and Mehmed also has Buddism. Monty's second city has Buddism, but I don't think I will convert yet. Shaka has Hinduism and Mao has Judism. Neverheless, they are "pleased" with each other and both "annoyed" with Mehmed as is he with them. That looks like a war coming. My neighbors are Sal and Mao. This is going to be a tough game diplomatically. I have not opened borders or traded with anybody yet until I see how the alliances shake out.

I am going to "sleep on it" and figure out tomorrow morning what to do.:)
 
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