SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Does agreeing to stop trading with someone give a diplo bonus? I rarely do it because they won't talk to me forever after it seems.

I thought that agreeing to any demand gives a +1 diplo bonus. I'm almost positive there is a diplo bonus.

I may be forgetting to account for "trading with my worst enemies" diplo hits when we have long term resource trades with their worst enemies. I'm uncertain if these diplo hits exist.
 
I thought that agreeing to any demand gives a +1 diplo bonus. I'm almost positive there is a diplo bonus.

I may be forgetting to account for "trading with my worst enemies" diplo hits when we have long term resource trades with their worst enemies. I'm uncertain if these diplo hits exist.

As far I recall, the last time I did accept such demands (stop trading), it took twice to gain something on the diplo screen. I think it was brennus call, thus maybe it was leader depending.

EDIT: In respect to avoid cluttering the thread with unfounded assertions:

I did a quick test game after some unfruitious researches (though I learnt nice details on memory decays; "You have declared war on us" has one too...I didn't know that. :D).

With the use of new random seed and autosave, I got true Gandhi request to close border with DeGaulle and the agreement brought me nothing. Therefore, I expect approx. most leaders needs two close borders agreement to gain a diplo point. Conclusion, closing border isn't advantageous at all...except in case to keep a specific AI happy for a tactical reason.

I did test the second agreement to close border with DeGaulle and at this moment I got the special diplo bonus called "You agreed to stop trading with our worst enemy". But taking the time to get talk with said worst foe and then OB (if (s)he's willing once again) and wait another such request is way too long and probabilistic. Better liberate some cities...

I did the close border multiple times and the result is the same, the new seed won't change the required numbers of close borders.

Do we know who will update the test game (no pressure on anyone, don't get me wrong)?
 

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sadly, I can't keep to my promise for testing these assertions that I make. Although I didn't think it was easily tested. Thanks Tachy for testing it.

Okay so is ~7 gold/turn worth a possible diplo hit? Probably not...

If anyone has any recommendations for the next turnset or feedback on my preliminary ideas that would be helpful tomorrow.

I'm going to sleep. If frogdude hasn't responded by ~8 hours from now then I will take the turn set. I'll try to get a preliminary PPP out before I go to work tomorrow morning assuming frogdude doesn't take it.
 
Cool, I've never seen that diplo modifier before :crazyeye:

Even if we can't use it effectively, I'm sure we are all learning a ton about Civ 4 that we never knew before thanks to this SGOTM.



I will try to update the test game right now and post it if success.
 
Ideally, we finish Edu, put a turn on six universities and whip them all the turn after, then switch civics. That probably won't happen in practice, but we will want to be growing some population for this, and so we would like to apply the bulb when our population is highest. That probably means we want to put the normal tech on Edu before the bulb, having estimated the size of the bulb (there's a forum thread somewhere with a formula).

Formula is beakers = 1500 + 3 * population, see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10351456&postcount=22. So there is only a small gain to be had by growing before bulbing.
 
Cool, I've never seen that diplo modifier before :crazyeye:

Even if we can't use it effectively, I'm sure we are all learning a ton about Civ 4 that we never knew before thanks to this SGOTM.



I will try to update the test game right now and post it if success.

Right now, I am reading a post about other weird and unknown to me diplo modifier...
e.g. "You received a tech from another civilization.". Trying to find the respective XML...


Yes, my learning curve is pretty intense for me too. :)

Excellent for accepting to update the game. :D Don't forget to give the colossus to someone to break the string of uncessant crashes. ;)

sadly, I can't keep to my promise for testing these assertions that I make. Although I didn't think it was easily tested. Thanks Tachy for testing it.
*punch bcool's face* Your contribution is already very solid. You can't do everything, let minor actors do some jobs...;):lol:

Formula is beakers = 1500 + 3 * population, see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10351456&postcount=22. So there is only a small gain to be had by growing before bulbing.

For a strong tech like Education, any waiting for population growth is unacceptable to me. Currency case was also a difficult one before fake trick I posted. Yes, the gains are marginals.


As far I recall, the last time I did accept such demands (stop trading), it took twice to gain something on the diplo screen. I think it was brennus call, thus maybe it was leader depending.

I also think "You helped us in wartime" falls into the same category. Just to note that.
That is why those requests are usually systematically declined.
 
For a strong tech like Education, any waiting for population growth is unacceptable to me.

Edu requires either two bulbs, or a bulb and significant chunk of normal beakers. I'm not advocating delaying Edu, I'm advocating maximising the return from the bulb, by maximising population, probably by applying the bulb to Edu as late as possible so that our natural beakers that turn finally finish it. This combines with the desire to grow the population to prepare whips of universities. See below. So when we start Edu, we need to observe what the multiplier is between the raw beakers our civ produces and the amount that goes onto the bar. Then we can judge the turn when we will need to apply the bulb, then we target our growth to that turn.

Ideally, we finish Edu, put a turn on six universities and whip them all the turn after, then switch civics. That probably won't happen in practice, but we will want to be growing some population for this, and so we would like to apply the bulb when our population is highest. That probably means we want to put the normal tech on Edu before the bulb, having estimated the size of the bulb (there's a forum thread somewhere with a formula).

In practice, we might choose some slow building of some universities and some fast whipping of others, depending on the roles of the cities and their base hammer output.
 
I think we want to trade for the eastern witches spare gold. Resources are unlikely to help them significantly and we can get 6-7 more gold from them each turn. That isn't insignificant. Renegotiate the 1 gold trade and get a 4 gold trade from the other.

We definitely need a change here. We are giving fish for 1 gpt. This deal needs to be canceled or renegotiated. Note that we no longer have a "traded with worst enemy" diplo hit.

Finding cities of Monty critical if we want a run at the AP since Monty might have already started it. Gandhi isn't but Monty might...

Note that our scouting failed to show the city SW of Dehli near the Stone. This is likely a hammer city for Gandhi that could be building the AP.
 
Ok, Bcool was right about the Colossus being the glitch in our Test Games. It might also be caused by the AI building other wonders, but smiting them using the Worldbuilder gets the testsave working crash free out to T135 so that will have to do.


Here is the Test Save updated to T125. It should be the same as the real game, except for Silver City which is 14/60 on the lighthouse in the real game, and 10/60 hammers in the test game. Also, the Great People points could be off, I didn't check too hard on those.
 

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Ok, Bcool was right about the Colossus being the glitch in our Test Games. It might also be caused by the AI building other wonders, but smiting them using the Worldbuilder gets the testsave working crash free out to T135 so that will have to do.


Here is the Test Save updated to T125. It should be the same as the real game, except for Silver City which is 14/60 on the lighthouse in the real game, and 10/60 hammers in the test game. Also, the Great People points could be off, I didn't check too hard on those.

Great work!
 
We definitely need a change here. We are giving fish for 1 gpt. This deal needs to be canceled or renegotiated. Note that we no longer have a "traded with worst enemy" diplo hit.



Note that our scouting failed to show the city SW of Dehli near the Stone. This is likely a hammer city for Gandhi that could be building the AP.


Well, if we trade for Ghandi's map to remove the fog, will his missing city show up in our vision?
 
Good luck, bcool!

Edu requires either two bulbs, or a bulb and significant chunk of normal beakers. I'm not advocating delaying Edu, I'm advocating maximising the return from the bulb, by maximising population, probably by applying the bulb to Edu as late as possible so that our natural beakers that turn finally finish it. This combines with the desire to grow the population to prepare whips of universities. See below. So when we start Edu, we need to observe what the multiplier is between the raw beakers our civ produces and the amount that goes onto the bar. Then we can judge the turn when we will need to apply the bulb, then we target our growth to that turn.

Putting that way, this is a solid reason to max population. What you are trying is to get the optimal /critical point between three variables:
Max population
Earliest Education
Enough population to whip universities in adequate cities.

Now, you have me on your side.
 
Good luck, bcool!



Putting that way, this is a solid reason to max population. What you are trying is to get the optimal /critical point between three variables:
Max population
Earliest Education
Enough population to whip universities in adequate cities.

Now, you have me on your side.

Yeah. It'd be rare to be able to get all three optimized without compromising something else important, but certainly we wish to consider in the turns leading up to the bulb that each person is worth 3 beakers on the turn of the bulb, so whipping anywhere just before the bulb needs to make sense in the overall context.

It's also worth bearing in mind that early Edu is useful only for early universities. If we are not going to start any university the turn after Edu (for some weird reason) then we might as well delay Edu accordingly in favour of more growth (if possible).
 
Rough PPP T125-T135
Goals: (somewhat complete list)
  • Set up 6 cities (Capital, Silver, Stone, GPFarm, isengard Fur City!!!, CB, Gems to build universities) I want to set up a max OF whip of a university in the capital to time with whips of universities in other cities so that we get a max OF into Oxford university.
  • Spread taoism to Trojan Horse, Boston, and key cities that will build a university (so Fur City and CB)
  • Steal machinery and set up another steal for western witches
  • Set up a steal from northern witches near the end of the turn set so that we have a spy ready to steal when an interesting tech is finished
  • Build forges in high production cities and cities that can handle a forge whip and university whip in reasonable time
  • Tech Paper and maximize the return from selling maps
  • Build the National Epic and start the AP (and assess our chances of building the AP from great spy intelligence and/or map purchase)
  • Explore Eastern Witches land to assess a future military campaign
  • Pull sentry units back to reduce maintenance since the immediate war threat has been averted
  • Get the Heroic Epic unlocked with elephants attacking barbarian city to the south
  • Get new cities up and running with chops and workboats
  • Limited to no monastery builds... Will start those builds after universities are whipped most likely
  • Continue to make friends with North and Western Witches. Trade with South but don't go out of my way to make friends (hopefully they will be our opponents in the UN elections), Deny Eastern witches everything (still expecting to kill them with a later war)
  • Start Moai in Isengard if it finishes lighthouse, forge, workboat before education is researched or the HE is unlocked.


It might make good sense to avoid whipping a university in GPFarm. The 25% research bonuses is nice, but the loss of population is going to hurt our gp production that we have already sacrificed significantly...

Techs: Paper asap (I want map trades), Education self teched until 1 bulb + 1 turn of research gets us Education, then put slider to 0% (probably beyond my turn set.

Builds
Washington
Spoiler :

Market (using river grass mine instead of a cottage)

StoneCity
Spoiler :

existing missionary to Trojan Horse
taoist missionary (2 pop whipped) for cultural bridge
toaist missionary for Fur City
forge (3 pop whipped?)
toaist missionary for boston
spy for boston

Gems
Spoiler :

forge 2 pop whipped
OF goes into AP (or a workboat for Sheep City??)

GPFarm
Spoiler :

NE (I think a citizen on turn 4 of build gets it 1 turn earlier)
workboat (for Sheep City -- comes late 4T for NE , 3T for workboat, 5T to get to sheep city (would have been less with that fort!, whip the NE for max OF??? and earlier workboat?)
workbaot (for sheep/fur/silver/marble city?)

chop forest to the south so we can finish NE and OF into workboat cuts build time down to 1 turn, and workboat gets to sheep city seafood 10 turns from now... (crud this forest goes to gems city in the test game... how does the game decide this? I thought if a city had more culture in the tile it would go to that city, I would think GPFarm is putting in more culture here...
missionary for northern witches

Silver
Spoiler :

lighthouse, forge 2 pop whipped, courthouse

Isengard
Spoiler :

lighthouse,
forge (is probably better than Moai)
workboat for fur city
, NE?


(needs a library if we are going to build a university here)


Cultural Bridge
Spoiler :


library (wait for taoism spread to 2 pop whip it, then spy for boston (no forge need pop for university whip)

Marble City
Spoiler :

1 pop whip granary now (can't 2 pop whip because Taoism spread here)
lighthouse 2 pop whip
courthouse

hmm if we delay the lighthouse whip we might be able to get to 6 pop here and whip a university... I think it gets to 6 pop in 10 turns with a whip of the granary this turn, and no lighthouse whip. Just need 2 more farms. This would allow us to avoid a university in isengard or GPFarm. I would need a library too :(

Phants
Spoiler :

Granary whip now
lighthouse
(works dye/farm to grow)
2 pop lighthouse
courthouse

Sheep City
Spoiler :

culture (stopping cultural build if chop workboat) steal a mine if necessary from gems to get cultural pop to time well with workboat production and planting)
workboat/granary
I was trying to avoid chopping the workboat for this city by itself, but I think the other options are too slow (maybe not, but there are issues)

Fur/Sheep/Silver/Marble/seafood city
Spoiler :

granary / culture if expect workboat to get here soon

hmm... 4 turns to settle
4 turns to pop the borders with culture
4 forests plus another just outside the borders...

Just tested this I can get a university here T137-8 with 2 forest chops + 1 outside to build the library and then 2 BFC chops + 1 outside or a 1 pop whip :)

need 2 workers only I think maybe a 3rd to chop 1 forest outside the BFC :)

Need to confirm with play test, but I think this might be possible ( of course no granary and no lighthouse but that is okay right?)

Diplomacy

Tech demands for anything except Philosophy and Paper will be granted to West and North Witches. Gold and resource demands will be granted to West and North Witches also.
All request for halting trades, changing religions, and help with war will be denied if any AI requests them.
All demands from East Witches will be declined.

sell maps (trade out maps for just their gold) to all except eastern witches (to avoid possible diplo hits? -I assume this happens with map trades)

trade machinery to northern witches for feudalism + maps + gold

trade new better maps again to the AI trading for their maps and spare gold if possible (all but eastern witches again)

cancel 1 gold trade for fish with eastern witches

every turn check for gold-resource trades ( upgrade existing trades for more gold if possible) except no trades to eastern witches

(should I try Tachy's trick of giving the AI gold so we can get more gold from the resource trade? I will test with test game when I get a chance)

espionage
switch espionage to southern witches, keep it there until I get a glimpse of their research, then back to eastern witches to regain a view of their research, then split between south, east, north to maintain views of research of south and east and maximize the remainder to the north

spy steal machinery from the western witches (after taoism spreads there)
new spy jumps into trojan horse immediately

need a spy for boston coming late in my turn set perhaps, but maybe can delay this....

worker goals

Eiffel goes to GPFarm, roads PMine, farms grassland

Stevenson farms for Phants, then Gmine for Phants

Goodyear builds Gems city fort??? (workboats and later missionaries/galleys will use this probably)

Fritz chop forest between GPFarm and gems (either to help workboat build in GPFarm or to help AP build in Gems)
then helps with Gems city fort?

Yama goes down the spoke to help with fur city dropping workshops as it moves down

Karl road ice, road sheep, sheep for Fur city

worker 8, mine, road, road cows for Cultural Bridge

Hoover & Semiramis
farms and gmine for Marble City
one might help with roads to Cultural Bridge

Rama
chops forest for Sheep
chops 2nd forest for sheep
then... down the spoke to help with roads?

Units
Great spy continues scouting monty's lands (we will get city view if the maps reveal them, but just in case we find the AP build city a turn or 2 earlier it helps) Then goes to northern witches lands

warrior near Isengard, pulled back into the city
spear near Isengard, pulled back into the city

elephants to the barbarian city to the south, try to get one up to 8 xp
galley waits for fort to be built near gems then cuts through there and picks up missionary to go to northern witches.


Great People
Great Scientist expected will save for bulb as mabraham describes
Great Artist sleeps

Will slow down GPFarm so Washington gets the 500 gp great person for an engineer in ~20 turns.
Other cities will grow rather than run specialists, unless a specialist or 2 or 3 will get me Paper 1 turn earlier.
 
Note that if CB is to be a university city, and it looks like being the slowest one, then we have to consider Isengard instead.

Can we get an ETA on Edu somehow? We need a target so we can decide what is sensible to build in the six cities before hand, and how to time any side whips also.
 
ETA for education ~13 turns

paper we have 936-441 left
education we have 2808

bulb gets ~1665

so we need 1638 after modifiers research

we produce ~78 sustainable research per turn and we have ~110 gold
at 100% we produce 198 at a cost of 105 gold

I expect we will get 150 gold from selling maps and maybe 50 more from begging or the machinery trade

so 300 gold gets us 594 research with deficit spending, then 78 sustainable research...

1638 / 1.2 = 1365 raw research needed

1365 - 594 = 771
then 771 / 78 = 10 turns

So I estimate we will get education in 13 turns (3 100% research turns followed by 10 turns with no significant gold influxes)

We cut this down by about 1.5 turns for every 100 gold we get. (beyond the 200 I estimated)
 
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