SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

You are right, except Isengard is a hybrid city (Primarily Military, Minor Commerce).

Since Isengard is also a Hammer City, it can quickly hammer a Library (4t) and University (5t; Philosophical trait bonus).

Building extra units in Isengard now with give units that will quickly become obsolete, have only 3 XP and each one will cost us 1 Wpt. Building these soon to be obsolete units may make us feel a bit safer and the War Elephants taking a Barbarian city for Diplomatic gain is excellent, but the Longbowmen won't help much in an offensive war, will cost us significant wealth to maintain and while they will probably hold Cimmerian they won't be helping offensively one iota.

If we could build something useful like Trebuchets in Isengard that would be great, but I'd prefer an extra 2 XP via Vassalage or Theocracy or Great Military Instructor. Trebuchets in particular are far more effective against cities using CR2 than CR1 promotion. Also Trebuchets (like all non-Machine Gun siege units) gain only 1 XP per successful barrage engagement, so the extra "training" +2 XP is really import. I would definitely build 3 XP Trebuchets in Isengard, assuming I had no way to boost the XPs.

You have consider the technology and promotion level of the troops being mustered to determine whether to bother with it at all. Build the Library and University in Isengard now while there isn't much of any military unit worth making! It's obvious to me; I'd don't understand why you and bcool are so resistant to the idea; there's nothing sacred about Heroic Epic that it can't be left idle when there aren't any particularly useful military units to build. I caution against trying hard to think of military units to build so you can deny the Minor Commerce city that Isengard is.

Perhaps I should just push through Library + University after the justifiable two War Elephants and one Horse Archer? We can build another Horse Archer for the next Taoist Missionary. Thereafter, maybe the two Horse Archers can cycle fast enough to protect all Taoist Missionaries coming through heading for the West Witches.

Sun Tzu Wu

I believe that we have 3 competing goals that we need to do simultaneously. Balancing them is the key for a good game.

3 goals,
1)teching to Mass Media as quickly as possible
2) designing a military plan to take out the eastern witches to get enough population to win the vote
3) developing our diplomatic relationships with the north and the west, and making sure they don't love the south too much.

I think we are focusing too much on the 1st goal at the expense of the 2nd goal and 3rd goal.

I think the 2 war elephants and the 4 longbows out of isengard will significantly help us achieve the 2nd and the 3rd goal. Because they allow us to capture a barbarian city and defend a city that will shut down Ragnar (allowing us to focus on Asoka when the time comes) and allow us to accumulte the diplo bonuses from the joint war effort earlier than we could otherwise.

The library build in Isengard returns about as much as 100 gold would. But Isengard is well positioned and well suited to build the units we need to help achieve goals 2 and 3.

Please reconsider your support of a library and temple in Isengard.
 
But our power rating is made up of (from memory) 2 elephants, 1 chariot, 1 spear, 1 axe, 2 archers, 10 warriors, 1 galley and a couple of barracks. AIs having double that is not very scary. 18 muskets would be well more than double our current collection. We're adding four longbows and two elephants in the short term, as well as having naval dominance, airships and treb support. Sounds like plenty of stuff to me.

Power rating is far than you suggest. It also takes into account military military technologies and population as a means of measuring the quality of the units and the raw quantity of units it can produce.

From the East Witches power rating one could conclude that they are producing far more military units than any AI Team.

Diverting hammers is relevant because we are racing against a clock. We need many things before the war can start rolling - defenders for Cimmerian, trebs, airships, navy and we have other distractions also (missionaries for conversion, maybe some wonders). The 600 hammers required for the Globe Theatre would show a benefit over a period of time beginning with the third draft from GPfarm - since we'd draft at least two without GT. We would have to draft 80 hammer muskets 8 times to show a profit on raw hammers, and they still have to spend 5-10 turns to get to the front. Meanwhile the boats and supporting units that would have been built instead of those 600 hammers of buildings and wonders would be already near the front lines and ready to go.

The trade-off is connected to the length of time needed to show a benefit. There's a lag time of at least 8-10 turns for the first additional unit from a GT-drafted GPfarm to make a difference. Meanwhile we could have already conquered the first two cities if we had five trebs and three maces for those 600 hammers (assuming the same supporting units in each case). Getting the West and North to friendly is a race against time to get the diplo bonuses to add up, and I think a GT-based strategy assumes that length of time is large and that we need masses of units. I think our tech edge is quite comfortable, our tactical decisions will be great and our production capacity without GT at least on par with the AIs.

What about The Wizard of Oz? For all we know, The Wizard of Oz is a Mechanized Infantry unit with all possible promotion, including Medic 3. You may be right about the Eastern Witches being push over Paper Tigers, but we don't know the whereabouts or nature of the Wizard of Oz, yet we assume it can be destroyed by military units which may not even be the case.

What are you talking about? We can't build Trebuchets yet, because we don't have Engineering. We can't build the units before acquiring the necessary technology. So tell me again how we could have already taken two of the Eastern Witches cities. We could build Catapults; we have the technology; we have the hammer city. And, how do we build Macemen without Civil Service. You're argument contains impossibilities. Maybe now you can see how foolish it is to build the hopelessly obsolete units we could build. Let's see, we could build Crossbowmen to go with our Catapults ... Be realistic!

Remember, I do have some small experience with using military units ... GOTM is not the only place one can gain such experience.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Okay,

I have just realized that we need to steal civil service before we can tech Nationalism. This significantly delays the time when we could usefully build the Taj Mahal.

I now believe the best, most reasonable (doable without sacrificing other important goals like the war effort or the diplo game) is to build MoM in stone when it can't build missionaries. When Stone isn't building the MoM, then Gems can build it. If you remove a wonder from the queue then you can build the wonder in two different cities as long as only one city at a time is building it.

This guarantees that we get failure gold for the MoM, when either an AI builds it or we finish it in either Stone or Gems.

I think Shulec is right that we have a slim chance of successfully building the MoM, so any plans built on the assumption that we will get the MoM are very risky. Another reason why I'm not so keen on my idea of building both the MoM and the Taj Mahal. Plus it will be difficult to build the Taj Mahal. Either we sacrifice 5 workers to the chopping effort which might not work since we don't have as many forests as I thought or we sacrifice other useful builds in the capital like an observatory for the Taj Mahal. Add the fact that we have to wait to steal Civil Service before we can tech or steal Nationalism and I think my idea is dead in the water.
 
City Build Queues and Worker Tasks:

Worker builds Workshop 2-N (6t); builds Workshop 1-W (6t).
Worker moves to 2-S+1-E of Washington (1t); build Cottage (4t); move 2-W (1t); build Cottage (4t).

I've retracted my enthusiasm for these cottages in an earlier post. Perhaps a road 1SE of rice is in order, to speed the missionaries out of Stone, and later units out of Silver.

Gems City (will be running 0, 0, 2, 3, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t156):

Taoist Missionary (2t)
Taoist Missionary (4t)
Market (great capacity for running 6-8 Merchants after generating 2 GSs)
t155: Theatre (4-5t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)

Worker completes Jungle Chop (2t); build Workshop (6t); move 1-N+2-E on D Dye (1t); build Plantation (6t).

Actually that tile is an incense, but whatever :)

Silver City (will be running 3 - 4t, 4 - 4t, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t163):

Taoist Temple (12t)

Worker builds Farm (5t); builds Workshop 1-SE (6t).

This tile 1SW of Silver has five turns on a workshop already. I think Silver needs only one more farm, so the lesser evil is to finish this workshop and delay the farm 1SE until we steal CS in a few turns. Temporise on a workshop 2S of Silver.

Sheep City (In t145, add new citizen to Gem City's Grassland Hill Mine):

Courthouse (15-18t)

Worker builds Workshop (4t); builds Workshop 1-E (6t)
Worker moves onto Copper Hill (1t); build Workshop 1-NW (6t); move 1-S of Isengard (1t); build Workshop (6t).

Rather than spend a complete turn doing nothing but movement, move a worker to the road 1SW of Sheep, workshop and wake. Then move to the plains tile 1NE of Isengard, workshop and wake. Then move 1N to workshop. We will certainly use at least one of these plains workshops eventually.

Cimmerian (Run Artist till border pop):

Walls (7t)
Castle (14t, assuming we can steal Engineering)
Courthouse (~30t)

Worker completes Rice Farm (2t); Build Road (2t); Move 2-SE on GF; Build Road (2t); Build Pig Pasture (4t)

I think improving the rice farm while running an artist, then immediately moving to pigs to sync with border pop is better. If we DOW soon, the roads will be useless and we need to get chopping fast.

The Chariot will be moved to attempt shulec's teleport idea; more details on how to perform this are needed as well some test that it will work as expected.

This idea has been retracted by shulec.

Horse Archer built in 2t will escort Taoist Missionaries to South Witches.

This is no longer what we want to do.

Great Spy moves to infiltrate North Witches.

We have not committed to this strategy. I think we should hover midway between west and north.
 
I'm not sure than 18 Musketman will be enough to even subdue the Eastern Witches. They have double our population and can build military units much faster than we can. We can't depend on our "useless" AI allies for any military help of any kind, really. We are going to be fighting two AI Civs simultaneously. Currently the Eastern Witches both have a power rating that is well over double ours right now; they will not be push overs. We need double the number of Musketmen that you want to draft at a minimum; we might need more. We can draft down to a Population of 5, so each city we draft from must have a Population of at least 6. It is more efficient to draft from smaller cities of Population 6-8 which can provide a draftee every turn for 1-3 turns respectively. However, we want to grow the bulk of our empire so our vote will count for more in the DV ballot. However, the drafting happiness rises rapidly and the whipping will deplete our populations further.

We need a source of main line units (Musketman when the time comes) that we can draft every turn without running into Happiness issues or depleting its Population, since should be possible to grow 1 Population every turn based on maximum growth of the city and its Granary halving this requirement. That city is GP Farm with Globe Theatre.
Nothing is stopping us from drafting more than 18 musketeers if we don't have the Globe Theater. When we are doing serious drafting beyond 18 muskets (if that is necessary) then we will have finished all the vital tech we need to finish, so what if we have a few cities with some unhappiness? Plus a size 8 city can be drafted 3 times without worrying about happiness issues. Since we will have at least 15 happiness from resources (10), base (4), charismatic leader (1). A size 8 city would be at 5 pop after 3 drafts and have +9 unhappiness from drafting. So it would still be happy if it regrew to size 6, and it would likely be able to grow more if it had our religion or if we trade for wine.
The Globe Theater is not worth the investment. There are more important things that we could build. I don't care if it is galleons or if it is building wealth. Building wealth is better than theaters or the Globe Theater. Wealth is worth at least twice as much research. I would rather have 1200 :science: rather than the theaters and the Globe Theater.
The need for Galleons is not directly related to whether or not Globe Theatre and six prerequisite Theatres is a good strategic move.

You can argue that the Hammers spent on Globe Theatre can be spent in many others ways too with some justification, but just because you can spent the Hammers for another useful thing doesn't by implication make Globe Theatre a poor to fair investment of hammers.

Sun Tzu Wu
I think mabraham addressed this issue. And it has limited impact in your turn set. I wouldn't even build the theater in GPFarm. I would rather have a barracks or wealth.
 
Post 2633 suggests holy war in 14 turns. This idea got support in 2639 and 2640. Perhaps you didn't see these posts?

Of course you meant to ask if I read the posts. Your rhetorical question is not helpful to me in completing this turn set and is also condescending. You could be a little bit more civil to a fellow team mate (maybe or maybe not?).

We want the holy war to start ASAP so that we are a better chance to be in position to win early UN votes if we have killed the wizard. Clearly there's some unknowns here, but so long as we have been building units out of Isengard, we can't get hurt by earlier war. Hence wanting units from Isengard, not buildings. The gold to support these new units that will capture cities for more population and get us closer to diplo votes for victory could be our best-value spending in the whole game.

So how do you want to start a religious war ASAP? Every TAP 10th turn anniversary is when we get our chance; there's no other possibility and the resolution is possible only when it makes sense in the game situation. We need a super majority of the votes; I guess we could easily win now, but only full members would be obliged to join in.

Completing Mass media would invalidate TAP for us, but it would continue to be in effect for other Civs, meaning effectively 2 Hpt bonus on TAP Religious buildings.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
So how do you want to start a religious war ASAP? Every TAP 10th turn anniversary is when we get our chance; there's no other possibility and the resolution is possible only when it makes sense in the game situation. We need a super majority of the votes; I guess we could easily win now, but only full members would be obliged to join in.

Sun Tzu Wu

Voting members are also forced to join into a holy war. I have recently tested this.

The next vote is in 4 turns. That is too early for us. However a holy war in 14 turns is possible.
 
Power rating is far than you suggest. It also takes into account military military technologies and population as a means of measuring the quality of the units and the raw quantity of units it can produce.

We're ahead on all tech paths and have two-thirds of their total population and the highest crop yield measured on single civs. So I don't see anything there that affects the interpretation of the relative power graph in a way that we should be afraid of.

From the East Witches power rating one could conclude that they are producing far more military units than any AI Team.

What about The Wizard of Oz? For all we know, The Wizard of Oz is a Mechanized Infantry unit with all possible promotion, including Medic 3. You may be right about the Eastern Witches being push over Paper Tigers, but we don't know the whereabouts or nature of the Wizard of Oz, yet we assume it can be destroyed by military units which may not even be the case.

If we find out we need lots of tech, then diverting Isengard for small amounts of beakers might make sense once the war is well established. Delaying the war when we might not need lots of tech seems very doubtful to me. We don't know what will be required to kill the wizard, but in a race against an unknown time it makes sense to achieve what you can as fast as possible in the hope that the unknown rate-limiting stage fits in with that timeline.

Assuming that killing the wizard can't fit in that timeline runs the risk of delaying the win if the assumption is false, and may only gain a little if the assumption is true.

Assuming that we can kill the wizard in that timeline might not delay the win if the assumption is false, and gains when the assumption is true. Hence wanting units for early war - so no GT plan and no beakers buildings in Isengard. We're taking insurance with academy in Washington and courthouses in some side cities.

What are you talking about? We can't build Trebuchets yet, because we don't have Engineering. We can't build the units before acquiring the necessary technology. So tell me again how we could have already taken two of the Eastern Witches cities. We could build Catapults; we have the technology; we have the hammer city. And, how do we build Macemen without Civil Service. You're argument contains impossibilities. Maybe now you can see how foolish it is to build the hopelessly obsolete units we could build. Let's see, we could build Crossbowmen to go with our Catapults ... Be realistic!

I've suggested Kaitzilla's post 2633 as a war blueprint, which bc has also supported. That plan builds war elephants and longbows in Isengard for about 8 turns. We plan to acquire CS at about the time that build plan finishes, so maces become a possibility then, if there's nothing we like better. We may acquire Engineering by stealing from the North or maybe West around then also. So we will be able to build some trebs before a 14-turn DOW in that scenario. Adding 9 turns of buildings to the Isengard queue means we will have not enough units to DOW in 14 turns.

I've suggested no catapults and only maybe a crossbowman. Please be realistic about reading and remembering what people say.

My point about capturing two Asoka cities was in the context of the Globe Theatre debate. This discussion is only tangentially related to the Isengard build order discussion. 600 hammers worth of units from the cities that build theatres and GT would be built and in position long before the 10th musket from GT (at least two get drafted even without GT, 8 muskets get us to showing a profit on hammers), so they get time to start capturing cities before the GT plan has paid for itself. The GT plan may be faster at conquering later, but it's possible we've found and killed the wizard and won a vote by the time it makes a serious difference.

Remember, I do have some small experience with using military units ...

As do the rest of us :)
 
I think we are all doing our best to argue for our positions. I think we are all trying to do the best we can.

I'm hoping we can have a productive discussion that in the end leads to the best play.

In order to have a productive discussion online, we all need to do our best to understand what the other person's position is.

This is difficult since we have to do this on a text based forum. And it is difficult to follow the sometimes changing positions that people have and follow the changing game situation.

I'm going to try and summarize what I think the latest positions are from the various team members in the next post. From that post, perhaps we can move forward. People can correct anything I got wrong and people can reference these complex issues in a more manageable way.
 
Of course you meant to ask if I read the posts. Your rhetorical question is not helpful to me in completing this turn set and is also condescending. You could be a little bit more civil to a fellow team mate (maybe or maybe not?).

In post 2670 you stated you were thinking about war after we had Electricity for airships (say, 25 turns away). Also in the post you asked what I meant by "earlier" war. So I pointed you to the discussion about war in 14 turns. That discussion took place around the time you started your PPP preparation. I'm sorry if you thought my rhetorical question was condescending. You having not read those posts seemed the most likely explanation for your question. I'm operating under the assumption that for PPP discussion we all should have read and considered the discussion from all teammates since the end of the last turn set (at least).
 
I wouldn't even build the theater in GPFarm. I would rather have a barracks or wealth.

I still plan to build a Theatre here at 3 Hpt. Wealth at 3 Wpt and your not concerned about 11 Wpt unit maintenance and climbing; I don't buy it. But your against the slow building of a Theatre which could be useful in case we later decide that Globe Theatre in GP Farm wasn't a bad idea after all.

OK, I can go with slow building a Barracks in GP Farm. We will need it when we switch to Theocracy and draft from GP Farm, but the unhappiness will kill its growth and useful citizens because it is so close to happiness cap. It will become unhappy with the second draft. So, a Theatre would be needed anyway, because we want to run 100% research and thus can't use the culture slider for extra happiness. At least with a Theatre we get an extra +1 happiness with each 10% of the Culture slider.

So we are back to a Theatre in GP Farm. And frankly, we should be building a Theatre for extra +1 Dye in every city that is close to happiness cap. Culture (Theatre in this case) is what helps keep the populace happy. I'm aware of Incense and Fur being connected soon, but they only add +2 happiness with a Taoist "Cathedral" or Market and a draft causes 3 unhappiness.

Do you want to hold up the turn set over whether or not a Theatre gets slowly built (3 Hpt) in GP Farm?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
When would you plan to DOW, though? Trebs are not the only thing we need, and longbows and elephants are useful over the whole course of the war. We need to defend the stack and not be invaded and have a distraction for Ragnar.

I certainly wasn't planning war in 14 turns. I didn't realize we were planning to declare war at this point for the sole purpose of diplomacy. I do not believe this is a good idea unless we plan on making peace at the next vote.

There will be no long lasting diplomatic points gained, but it will hopefully ensure that the north and west witches will not give us a "you declared war on our friend" diplo hit.

We can choose the AP peace resolution to make peace with us and allow everyone else to stay at war. They will not make significant progress since they have not been building up their armies. We will likely be asked to join the war at a later time, at which time we must accept.

We can choose the AP peace resolution to make peace with the East Witches and allow everyone to become peaceful. This will sour relations with the east witches.

We either scenario, I am doubtful that we could snag a GG out of a short war.

If we do indeed go to war in 14 turns, yes, I would oppose a library in Isengard.
 
In post 2670 you stated you were thinking about war after we had Electricity for airships (say, 25 turns away). Also in the post you asked what I meant by "earlier" war. So I pointed you to the discussion about war in 14 turns. That discussion took place around the time you started your PPP preparation. I'm sorry if you thought my rhetorical question was condescending. You having not read those posts seemed the most likely explanation for your question. I'm operating under the assumption that for PPP discussion we all should have read and considered the discussion from all teammates since the end of the last turn set (at least).

Of course I have read all discussion since the end of the last turn set. I have read every single post in this thread from post #1! Does that mean that I have the content of all those posts memorized and available within a fraction of a second? No. I hope you do not expect this of all players on the team.

I believe the team will run more smoothly if we help each other to win the SGOTM, learn a lot about Civilization IV Beyond the Sword and have fun doing it. I've been doing it since the game started. Are you? Or would you prefer to continue questioning your team mates abilities and/or commitment to the game?

Sincerely,

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I still plan to build a Theatre here at 3 Hpt. Wealth at 3 Wpt and your not concerned about 11 Wpt unit maintenance and climbing; I don't buy it. But your against the slow building of a Theatre which could be useful in case we later decide that Globe Theatre in GP Farm wasn't a bad idea after all.

I think that money spent on units that will be helping capture cities and earning diplo benefits is money well spent.

OK, I can go with slow building a Barracks in GP Farm. We will need it when we switch to Theocracy and draft from GP Farm, but the unhappiness will kill its growth and useful citizens because it is so close to happiness cap. It will become unhappy with the second draft. So, a Theatre would be needed anyway, because we want to run 100% research and thus can't use the culture slider for extra happiness. At least with a Theatre we get an extra +1 happiness with each 10% of the Culture slider.

This assumes that we need to keep the city happy after we have scouted the map with airships to find the wizard. If we haven't found out how to deal with the wizard, then we may need to keep the city happy as insurance. If we need heavy tech, we may need the city happy. If we do not need heavy tech, we do not need the city to be happy if we get a military unit sooner that is useful. Drafting muskets returns about 4:hammers: per food in cities the size of GPfarm - more for smaller cities. Only Gworkshops with Caste, Guilds and Chemisty are competitive with that rate of return. Scenarios exist where we might draft GPfarm as far down as it doesn't starve... unhappy people still vote for us as world leader!

So we are back to a Theatre in GP Farm. And frankly, we should be building a Theatre for extra +1 Dye in every city that is close to happiness cap. Culture (Theatre in this case) is what helps keep the populace happy. I'm aware of Incense and Fur being connected soon, but they only add +2 happiness with a Taoist "Cathedral" or Market and a draft causes 3 unhappiness.

Do you want to hold up the turn set over whether or not a Theatre gets slowly built (3 Hpt) in GP Farm?

I don't mind building the theatre in GPfarm as insurance. It might well pay for itself with happiness during the war phase. We'll have a chance to whip other theatres during our golden ages if we need the others.
 
I certainly wasn't planning war in 14 turns. I didn't realize we were planning to declare war at this point for the sole purpose of diplomacy. I do not believe this is a good idea unless we plan on making peace at the next vote.

Interesting possibility. This allows us to start wars to keep the AIs busy (and perhaps off the Liberalism path) and giving us a chance to scout with airships whether we have enough tech to kill the wizard before we commit to building a large army.

There will be no long lasting diplomatic points gained, but it will hopefully ensure that the north and west witches will not give us a "you declared war on our friend" diplo hit.

I was envisaging keeping everyone at war with the East until the bitter end, so those diplo points would still be active. Until the North and West start losing units, they won't get war weariness, and East won't have tech to concede to them for peace, so I'd hope the North and East won't ever allow peace on their own.

We can choose the AP peace resolution to make peace with us and allow everyone else to stay at war. They will not make significant progress since they have not been building up their armies. We will likely be asked to join the war at a later time, at which time we must accept.

We can choose the AP peace resolution to make peace with the East Witches and allow everyone to become peaceful. This will sour relations with the east witches.

We either scenario, I am doubtful that we could snag a GG out of a short war.

If we do indeed go to war in 14 turns, yes, I would oppose a library in Isengard.

Hopefully we have enough votes on our own to secure peace with us, if that's what we want.

I'm not too concerned with getting a GG, but the chance makes for a nice side bonus. War in 14 turns and then either AP-peace with us after 20 more turns (because we know we need lots of tech), or full-scale conquering (because we have the necessary tech) seems like a decent flexible plan.
 
So the big question is are we going to go to war in 14 turns. From the last two pages, it looks like mabraham and bcool were making recommendations with the assumption that this was our plan based on the previously referenced posts. Kaitzilla hasn't weighed in again since he originally made the suggestion.

I think I understand from STW's posts that he wasn't making his PPP with a war planned for 14 turns. I also did not realize this.

War in 14 turns is such a major strategic move and carries significant risk. I think we need to have a discussion on how we start, maintain and end this war. Edit: ... or not end the war as mabraham suggests above.
 
I now believe the best, most reasonable (doable without sacrificing other important goals like the war effort or the diplo game) is to build MoM in stone when it can't build missionaries. When Stone isn't building the MoM, then Gems can build it. If you remove a wonder from the queue then you can build the wonder in two different cities as long as only one city at a time is building it.

This guarantees that we get failure gold for the MoM, when either an AI builds it or we finish it in either Stone or Gems.

Why can't Gems City build all or most of our Taoist Missionaries that are headed to the West Witches?

I suppose the Taoist Missionaries built in Stone City can spread Taoism to one of our nearby cities, right?

I don't see the advantage of switching MoM between cities. Actually I'd prefer to start MoM in Stone City immediately and not interrupt it to improve its chance of actually completing it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Ok, I feel like there is too many counter-productive comments going back and forth. Let's try to focus and not make emotional comments in our posts that are likely to lead to emotional responses.

mabraham and I are just verbally sparing. Nothing serious I assure you.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Issues and a summary of what I believe people's positions are.

Globe Theater and theaters
Sun Tzu Wu... supports
mabraham... against
Tachywaxon... no comment
Walter_Wolf... no comment
Kaitzilla... thinking on it--no position taken
frogdude... no comment
bcool... against
shulec... against
compromise slow build a theater at 3 hammers in GPFarm
mabraham is for the compromise
I'm willing to compromise and accept that a theater in GPFarm might be useful for happiness alone.
I think this issue can be put to bed.

War with eastern witches in 14 turns using the AP holy war option
Sun Tzu Wu... ??? against I believe (now supports)
mabraham... supports
Tachywaxon... no comment
Walter_Wolf... no comment
Kaitzilla... supports
frogdude... no comment
bcool... supports
shulec... has doubts

Isengard should focus on military units (war elephants, longbows, then treb or macemen)
Sun Tzu Wu... against (supports war elephants, but wants temple and library) now supports
mabraham... supports
Tachywaxon... no comment
Walter_Wolf... no comment
Kaitzilla... supports
frogdude... no comment
bcool... supports
shulec... supports if we go ahead with the plan to declare a holy war in 14 turns.

courthouses
wide spread support for courthouses in Sheep and Phants, but not so much for the capital

markets
STW supports but is willing to compromise here and not start any

Bulb Plan 1st GS for academy, then 5 GS produced plus 1 from Physics for 3 bulbing physics and 3 bulbing electricity
widespread support now after some serious debate

Use Great Spy to infiltrate the northern witches
Sun Tzu Wu... supports
mabraham... wants wait and see approach
Tachywaxon... no comment
Walter_Wolf... no comment
Kaitzilla... wants wait and see approach
frogdude... no comment
bcool... wants wait and see approach
shulec... no comment

Engineer flavoring for cities expected to produce great scientists that have forges (obviously)
Sun Tzu Wu... supports but only after 6 pure GS are born
mabraham... supports
Tachywaxon... no comment
Walter_Wolf... no comment
Kaitzilla... supports
frogdude... no comment
bcool... supports (this is a change, an engineer would help us)
shulec... no comment
 
Top Bottom