C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

Al right. So far I've been quietly observing (for a change) some of the things stated here but I feel I have to say something now. :)

Too far spread religions? I don' think that is a problem and early religions are still religions regardless of if they can't have monasteries or come before Meditation. Monasteries aren't really what makes a religion spread. Missionaries and people showing all the good things coming from a religion is. Is anyone trying to say that missionary type people didn't exist before Buddhism was founded, even if they weren't called missionaries then? Ideologies spread, usually like wildfire, and religions are imo basically just advanced and/or more complex and/or stricter ideologies. The only time it might not spread is when the people already follow one ideology, and even then it spreads anyway (multiple religion spread simulates this well).
Changing the amount of missionaries at any one given time won't really solve the problem, I don't think anyway, and the only thing the initial missionary type units will do is increase the early spread rate a little. Limiting missionary type units will only slow down the rest of the conversion as you have to build a few at a time and use them before building new ones.

What I think makes it a problem is less incentive to switch for the AI. A human does change over from an early religion when it's served it's purpose, or at least I do. Thus the AI needs to have some kind of weight, other than having a single favourite religion and potentially gaining/losing diplomacy points, telling it how good a religion is so that it will abandon the early religions in favour of newer and more potent religions. For this reason religions should very possibly not be equal, or even near equal, to each other and later religions should be considered to take more into account the way people work and thus make itself more attractive to people. (yes, religions aren't alive, but someone controls the direction a religion takes) The religions of today mostly do that and those that don't aren't very popular. As an example Christianity accepted Slavery when it came but as the view on slavery changed across the general populace so did the Christianity view as well.

At least this is if C2C is aiming for having the early religions fade away over time. If not then it's a totally different ballgame and we don't actually currently have a problem.
Unless AI and Human players alike don't take towards having a late game civic with the No State Religion effect, which, imo again, should be what C2C really should aim towards; religious freedom. If this is the case then that/those Civics might need a buff as well as an increase in AI weight.

Then there's the option of going for a few later religions dominating. This would be hard to accomplish in C2C though considering the amount of religions available, unless;
A radical thought which isn't so radical after all is that today's religions haven't just popped up; they have evolved, and not only most often but always, from something else, most often other religions.
Early religions evolved because nature was all they knew about and a lot of that was mysterious; how to explain it except through myths, or folklore, leading to a belief system.
Later religions evolved through combinations of early religions, scientific advances, a charismatic visionary, and an adherent group of followers to spread the word.
Sooooo, the radical thought would be to have early religions lead into the newer religions, thus naturally fading the old away.
Though those early religions' buildings, or rather their effects, should also become readily available at some point in time even when not having said religion as state religion any more. Tengriism with it's bonus to mounted units should get that only by having Tengriism present in a city, after a certain tech, of course. After all the knowledge that created it in the first place isn't really lost, just not requiring a state religion to be able to get it.

Anyway, that was me butting in with some observations.

Cheers
 
Giving more missionaries for later religions is an attempt to reduce the cost and thus incentive to convert. Anyway it will be an experiment which can be easily removed if it does not work.
 
We were discussing limits on Missionaries earlier and I just want to say that with the multiple production in effect in this mod, limiting missionaries to any amount would force a lot of production loss once you start approaching the rifling era. My capital can pump out about 30 of them in one round currently so any limit would be exceedingly frustrating, as it already is with corporate execs.
 
I am not sure if this i the right topic, but what about having no religion? Seems that with so many religions that its incredibly hard to every run Atheism civic. How can one rid their civ of religion and end up with better benefits (specifically science). Seems like if your religious then you still have better science then the non-religious. Which seems wrong since religious bias has been known to hinder science by trying to make science match theological doctrine. That's not to say there are not religious scientist (in fact there are many), its the problem that having many religions gets you a higher science output than going atheist.
 
I am not sure if this i the right topic, but what about having no religion? Seems that with so many religions that its incredibly hard to every run Atheism civic. How can one rid their civ of religion and end up with better benefits (specifically science). Seems like if your religious then you still have better science then the non-religious. Which seems wrong since religious bias has been known to hinder science by trying to make science match theological doctrine. That's not to say there are not religious scientist (in fact there are many), its the problem that having many religions gets you a higher science output than going atheist.

Religion=science, up until about the Age of Enlightenment. However people complain if monasteries loose their science boost. Even though we could not get to where we are now without separation of church and state.
 
Religion=science, up until about the Age of Enlightenment. However people complain if monasteries loose their science boost. Even though we could not get to where we are now without separation of church and state.

To be a bit more nuanced, I think it's more that people complain about SUDDENLY losing the science boost from monastries. If it just gradually phased out over a more prolonged period (so benefits drops off over a few semi-superceding techs) I don't think poepl would be so against it.
 
To be a bit more nuanced, I think it's more that people complain about SUDDENLY losing the science boost from monastries. If it just gradually phased out over a more prolonged period (so benefits drops off over a few semi-superceding techs) I don't think poepl would be so against it.

I tried that too. ;) They still complained loudly.
 
To be a bit more nuanced, I think it's more that people complain about SUDDENLY losing the science boost from monastries. If it just gradually phased out over a more prolonged period (so benefits drops off over a few semi-superceding techs) I don't think poepl would be so against it.

That's what I was thinking. Over period of techs have it loose its scientific benefits.

Here are some techs that could reduce the monastery benefits ...

- Education
- Liberalism
- Scientific Method
- Biology
- Archeology
- Paleontology
- Compulsory Education
- Genetics
- Astrobiology
- Artificial Evolution

I am sure there is more. Even if it was spread out between 100 techs it would be better.

I tried that too. ;) They still complained loudly.

Well who's making the mod us or them? Even if its to half the benefits it gives now it would be way better. We need something to represent the loss of effectiveness of science from monasteries.
 
I tried that too. ;) They still complained loudly.

ahaha, now you know how i feel, on alot of stuff i used to do, all you need to do is be consistent, give less than more.
 
We were discussing limits on Missionaries earlier and I just want to say that with the multiple production in effect in this mod, limiting missionaries to any amount would force a lot of production loss once you start approaching the rifling era. My capital can pump out about 30 of them in one round currently so any limit would be exceedingly frustrating, as it already is with corporate execs.

You could always hold down shift and click on a handful of buildings you want that city to have after the missionaries are finished building so you don't get the dreaded hammer wastage. I usually do this just to prevent the game giving me those annoying city build pop ups that jerk me back and forth across the screen and interrupt what I was trying to do.

Anyhoo.

Here's a suggestion for how to handle the dead end religious techs if this is a direction anyone is interested in. If not, then I might take the time to learn how to edit the tech-tree and make this a modmod, so any suggestions would be welcome.

Each religion will require certain religious or philosophical techs in order to be founded. When a religion tech, say, Buddhism is founded, the religion founding behaves as normal. If an AI has already founded Buddhism but you want to have the religion as well, you can research the tech and it will convert one of your cities to the religion, but it will not be the holy city. The tricky part, of course, will be keeping the AI from founding every single one of these and inadvertently ending up with every single religion in their cities.

Each religion tech will require certain prerequisite technologies. In some cases, these prerequisites will be other religion technologies, for instance, requiring Hinduism in order to found Buddhism. This way, rather than having intricately linked religions like Christianity and Judaism be founded halfway across the world from one another, one of your cities will have a small Jewish presence before Christianity can be founded, as researching the Judaism technology will convert one city to Judaism. If you so choose later on, you may use an inquisitor to purge Judaism from this city with no nonstandard penalty.

Some of these may differ from their places on the C2C tech tree.

Anyhoo. Here's how I would do it.

Shamanism - Requires Shamanism (Rename this technology to something else. Perhaps Ritualistic Healing or something)

Druidic Traditions - Requires Naturopathy

Ngaiism - Requires Livestock Domestication AND Ritualism

Tengriism - Requires Horseback Riding AND Mysticism

Mesopotamianism - Requires Polytheism

Hinduism - Requires Polytheism AND Caste System

Zoroastrianism - Requires Dualism

Judaism - Requires Dualism AND Monotheism

Kemetism - Requires Polytheism AND Ancestor Worship

Nagualism - Requires Polytheism AND Sacrifice Cult

Shintoism - Requires Polytheism AND Ancestor Worship AND Monarchy

Hellenism - Requires Polytheism AND Athletics

Buddhism - Requires Hinduism AND Meditation (This is the first religion to require
another religion)

Asatru - Requires Polytheism AND Ship-Building

Confucianism - Requires Code Of Laws AND Philosophy

Taoism - Requires Meditation AND Philosophy

Jainism - Requires Hinduism AND Philosophy

Yoruba - Requires Music AND Meditation

Christianity - Requires Judaism AND Philosophy AND Theology

Voodoo - Requires Yoruba AND Christianity

Islam - Requires Judaism AND Christianity AND Feudalism

Andeanism - Requires Polytheism AND Astronomy (For now. Personally, I want to see this religion toned down and turned into a late classical/medieval technology. The Incans weren't exactly known to be expert sailors. I'm leaving it here for now though, because the religion in it's current state is far too powerful to be a late classical/medieval religion)

Sikhism - Requires Hinduism AND Buddhism AND Education (Clockwork seemed like an odd choice to me. Education is at the same time frame and is a little more suiting.)

Baha'i - Requires Hinduism AND Judaism AND Zoroastrianism AND Buddhism AND Christianity AND Islam AND Humanism AND Medicine (Again, just because Steam Power seems like an odd choice, this is a more fitting technology at the same time frame.)

Mormonism - Requires Christianity AND Nationalism

Scientology - Requires Globalization

There you have it. I tried to keep everything being founded at roughly the same time, although the technologies required have been changed significantly to suit the character of the religion more, as opposed to having religions founded at entirely unrelated technologies just so they show up at the right time. Polytheism now becomes a very crucial technology as nearly all of the classic religions except for a small handful require it. This is as, I think, it should be. Before, it was possible to research Ship Building before Polytheism, and thus have your people worship the Norse pantheon before mankind knows about Polytheism. Philosophy becomes a major religious technology, and Judaism itself leads to three different religions directly, and one indirectly (Mormonism). Islam was moved to show up a few techs later than Christianity so that it may correspond better with it's real founding. Currently Islam is founded right before the Rennaisance, which isn't very realistic. As Islam is at around the same power level as Christianity, I feel this move is balanced.

Thoughts?
 
@hotrodlincoln

We have been down this road before but no one liked having specific deadend techs for religions even though it solved the problem.

Ok so strategyonly and I have been working on making room for additional techs by separating each column with spaces. While RoM and AND had a lot of techs there were some ares that were left out. This post is ment to brainstorm for each area. Please chime in if you have ideas or comments about this subject.

* = Already in the Game

Religion Techs
- Shamanism (Req Personal Adornment AND Tribalism AND Petroglphs)*
- Tengriism (Req Horseback Riding AND Shamanism)

- Druidism (Req Naturopathy AND Mysticism)
- Yoruba (Req Folk Dance AND Mysticism)

- Hinduism (Req Sedentary Lifestyle AND Polytheism)
- Kemetism (Req Stargazing AND Polytheism)
- Mesopotamism (Req Pottery AND Polytheism)
- Asatru (Req Ship Building AND Polytheism)
- Hellenism (Req Athletics AND Polytheism)

- Naghualism (Req Sacrifice Cult AND Calendar AND Polytheism)
- Andeanism (Req Construction AND Polytheism)

- Jainism (Req Meditation AND Hinduism)
- Buddhism (Req Meditation AND Hinduism)
- Confucianism (Req Meditation AND Code of Laws)
- Taoism (Req Meditation AND Philosophy)
- Shintoism (Req Ancestor Worship AND Polytheism)

- Sikhism (Req Hinduism AND Monotheism AND Clockworks)

- Ngaiism (Req Livestock Domestication AND Dualism)
- Zoroastrianism (Req Duelism AND Monotheism)

- Judaism (Req Mesopotamism AND Monotheism)
- Islam (Req Education AND Monotheism)
- Christianity (Req Theology AND Judaism)
- Voodoo (Req Yoruba AND Christianity AND Fundamentalism)
- Mormon (Req Representative Democracy AND Christianity)
- Bahá'í (Req Steam Power AND Islam AND Christianity AND Buddhism)

- Scientology (Req Globalization)

Arg ok I have been looking over all this stuff all day. I will post the other subjects later. So here is just the religious techs. I tried to pick the most logical. Here is also a time line for the techs I found on the web.

There is also some room for other religious related techs too I think.

Spoiler :
 
@hotrodlincoln

We have been down this road before but no one liked having specific deadend techs for religions even though it solved the problem.

It solves a problem but not the problem. The AI wont change to a new religion even if it is its favorite if has a large investment in its current religion. Giving it free missionaries was a way to reduce the cost but maybe instead of the favorite religion only spreading to your capital if you don't found it maybe it should spread to all your cities.
 
Do you still have the code for this? The way the religions work now, with one being founded right after the other is driving me absolutely crazy. Especially when they're religions that are in no way related, such as Judaism leading right to Buddhism, Yoruba leading right to Christianity, and so on.
 
It solves a problem but not the problem. The AI wont change to a new religion even if it is its favorite if has a large investment in its current religion. Giving it free missionaries was a way to reduce the cost but maybe instead of the favorite religion only spreading to your capital if you don't found it maybe it should spread to all your cities.

I hope you not still talking about The_J's python that spread all the religions to all the cities again, i hate that with a passion.:sad:

But if you think about it, how did the Maya and the Zulu's have close to the same religious philosophies being 1000's of miles apart? Well actually most of the world, Shamanism/WitchDoctors etc.
 
,<snip>Seems like if your religious then you still have better science then the non-religious. Which seems wrong since religious bias has been known to hinder science by trying to make science match theological doctrine. That's not to say there are not religious scientist (in fact there are many), its the problem that having many religions gets you a higher science output than going atheist.

Why do Non religious ppl persist in this absurdity?

Is it the mentality that if you say it enough times it must then be true?

Which seems wrong since religious bias has been known to hinder science by trying to make science match theological doctrine
Science came from religion, history shows it over and over.

Atheism (the Religion of not believing in God or gods) is not more scientifically advantaged.

...its the problem that having many religions gets you a higher science output than going atheist.
Maybe atheist should Not be a religious choice in the game? Put in a Societal Civic and take it out of the religions choices. Problem solved.

JosEPh
 
@hotrodlincoln

We have been down this road before but no one liked having specific deadend techs for religions even though it solved the problem.

Why? An off shoot of the tech that "enables" getting the religion would be a logical step to getting that religion. You would have to make a choice to actually get that religion. And I bet the AI would have no trouble doing that either.

JosEPh
 
Science came from religion, history shows it over and over.
JosEPh

Well, thats true and false, Science was so called "invented" in a faith type environment. Thats why the founders of the USA, wanted it to be completely separated, (State vs Church) Science just means: Knowledge.

First you had: Philosophical study of nature (Ancient Greek), having anything to do with nature/earth.
Then it proceeded also along the lines of: (Medieval) Philosophical turn to human things, and anything about life in general. ie: Socrates and Aristotle were at the main front there.
Then it went to modern science (Renaissance) so to say, like Copernicus and Galileo.
Then to Age of Enlightenment, 17-18 Century.
And so on.;)
 
Atheism (the Religion of not believing in God or gods) is not more scientifically advantaged.
JosEPh

Neither (in the modern world) is it DISadvantaged. Which it IS in C2C due to the persisting monastry bonuses.

In the middle ages scolars all existed within the confines of monastries because everyone else had to eek out a subsistance living and basically only the monks (and aristorcrats to an extent) could read and write. This wasn't really a benefit of religion per se, as much as it's societal effect, that allowed the monks time to study. Once the population at large gains that freedom (through widespread education and so on) the ability of monks to devote themselves to study has a RELATIVELY diminished effect on society as a whole.
 
Why do Non religious ppl persist in this absurdity?
Is it the mentality that if you say it enough times it must then be true?

Specific different religions forcing their dogma upon science its what I am talking about. For example some Christians believing that evolution is false, that the world is 6000 years old, etc.

These do beliefs do not help advance scientific knowledge only hinder it. Science has done a lot for science in the beginning such as Gregor Mendel's pea experiment for genetics and even Charles Darwin was a Christian.

I am not saying that religion has not lead to scientific discovery, I am saying that the absence of religion (or any other belief system) makes the scientific method more accurate. Science needs testable and repeatable evidence. Going by the word of a holy book or doctrine cannot be used as evidence in science. No more than going off of rumor or urban legend.

Look at TV show like Myth Busters who use the scientific method to prove or disprove myths. Such as a penny dropped from the Empire State Building will not kill a person or crack the sidewalk. No matter how many times people say it will. The terminal velocity of a falling penny is about 30&#8211;50 miles per hour, and the penny will not exceed that speed regardless of the height from which it is dropped. At that speed, its energy is not enough to penetrate a human skull or crack concrete.

Believing in deadly pennies is not as controversial as believing in God, but the same idea applies.
 
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