Tech Tree Revisions

45°38'N-13°47'E;12310882 said:

Now THIS is a VERY VERY nice suggestion! I especially like the last line, but I think this will need some coding that I'm not sure I'm able to do. Any idea/suggestion about it Vokarya?

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Supply Lines/movement range from cities would need extensive coding to work right. That is something that I think needs a full development cycle; it's been discussed in C2C before.

As far as the tech ideas go, I'm not completely convinced that they make good gameplay without solid content ideas -- for the sake of gameplay, technologies need something to go with them or they feel forced, and I don't want that. I'd also really like to test my suggestions out before we go back for another round, but I also want to code and post the new content that is going to go with these techs. I've got the code modified up to the middle of the Medieval Era right now.

Vokarya said:

Supply Lines/movement range from cities would need extensive coding to work right. That is something that I think needs a full development cycle; it's been discussed in C2C before.

As far as the tech ideas go, I'm not completely convinced that they make good gameplay without solid content ideas -- for the sake of gameplay, technologies need something to go with them or they feel forced, and I don't want that. I'd also really like to test my suggestions out before we go back for another round, but I also want to code and post the new content that is going to go with these techs. I've got the code modified up to the middle of the Medieval Era right now.

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Sounds reasonable to me. I'm having a look at the code to see how hard would it be to implement this feature. It shouldn't be impossible, but it might be beyond my ability. I think the part of the code which limits rebase range for planes (limit that gets removed once you get supersonic flight) might be inspiring. I suppose I can give it a shot in the middle-long term; anyway if I'm able to code this, I will definetly make it an option since it could have a great impact on the game. For the moment let's concentrate on the tech tree (and units and buildings, which are tied to tech tree).

For the Transhuman Era, I've tried to keep the changes to a minimum. Unlike the previous eras, I don't have any real reason to justify any massive changes and I don't particularly want to force any one particular vision of the era, so I've mostly limited my ideas to pruning redundancies and making sure that every tech is required for at least one other tech. There were a lot of dead-ends in the Transhuman Era.

This is what Transhuman-1 winds up looking like after the techs that were moved to the Modern Age left and then the remaining techs collapsed. This is one of the few cases where I don't really have a chokepoint tech; in fact, this is going to need to be spread over two columns as there are too many techs to fit in one column.

• Automated Traffic, Brain-Machine Interface, and Metamaterials all had redundancies removed.
• Ecological Engineering added Climate Models because I thought it was better to shorten Climate Models' hook into the tech tree instead of waiting all the way to Weather Control.
• Military Robotics got a rewrite because I wanted to use Cyberwarfare somewhere, I felt Machine Learning was a really good tech to include, and I also thought that Unmanned Air Vehicles would be a natural step before ever trying to use general military robots. With those three prerequisites, the originals were redundant.
• Rapid Prototyping changed Communication Networks for Knowledge Management as Comm Nets is redundant with Virtual Reality, but I didn't want to leave Rapid Prototyping with only one prerequisite. This tech could almost be a Modern Era tech with the recent rise of 3D printers (I know they are not the same, but I don't think the difference is enough to justify separate techs).

Transhuman-2 is another very broad level with just a few minor tweaks and the one new Transhuman Era technology of Megacorporations.

• Fusion, Hypersonic Flight, and Skyroads all lost redundant prerequisites.
• Advanced Computers added Superstring Theory because I needed a place to put SST and that looked like the best option.
• Replacement Organs added Metamaterials because I didn't think Cloning was enough, and I thought with Metamaterials, you could make replacement organs that were better than the ones being replaced.

Transhuman-3 is where the tree starts to narrow as it begins to converge on Future Tech.

• Anti-Aging Medicine and Smart Dust lost redundant prerequisites.
• Nanoelectronics gained Nanotechnology because it was possible to get to Plastic Electronics (Nanoelectronics' other prerequisite) without Nanotechnology by going through Wireless Electricity, so I patched that hole.

So we're almost at the end.

Megacorporations is the last new technology I want to add for now, filling the spot where Conglomerates was before I moved it to the Modern Era. I think the name Megacorporations gets the point of the tech across as succinctly as possible; these are corporations that are orders of magnitude more powerful than those that currently exist.

Era: Transhuman
Requirements: Derivatives + Legalized Gambling + Mesh Networks
Leads to: Planetary Economics
Allows: Global Stock Exchange (Wonder), Zurich-Orbital (Project), Zurich-Orbital Uplink (Building)

Again, for now, I'm trying to get some new content to release with these techs. I would like to do a series of new corporations that only become available at Megacorporations, but that's another project. For now, Megacorporations is keeping the Global Stock Exchange, and then it will allow Zurich-Orbital and Zurich-Orbital Uplink.

Zurich-Orbital is a corporate space station, the orbital equivalent of a Swiss bank. From the XML code, it looks to me like you cannot put more than one tech prerequisite on a project, so you may be able to build Z-O without Space Stations if you beeline Megacorporations (although you will need Satellites at least to get there). The station itself grants +25% gold and espionage civilization-wide, and allows the construction of the Uplink, which provides an additional +10% gold and +20% espionage and boosts defense against espionage. I'm still not completely sure whether this should be a Project or a Wonder. The International Space Station is a Project, so that's the course I would prefer to take.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12311117 said:

Sounds reasonable to me. I'm having a look at the code to see how hard would it be to implement this feature. It shouldn't be impossible, but it might be beyond my ability. I think the part of the code which limits rebase range for planes (limit that gets removed once you get supersonic flight) might be inspiring. I suppose I can give it a shot in the middle-long term; anyway if I'm able to code this, I will definetly make it an option since it could have a great impact on the game. For the moment let's concentrate on the tech tree (and units and buildings, which are tied to tech tree).

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We already have supply lines in the form of lower unit healing in neutral and even lower in enemy territory. Keep in mind with any changes that it is already represented.

Edit: and unit cost depending on location as well

Combat Wombat said:

We already have supply lines in the form of lower unit healing in neutral and even lower in enemy territory. Keep in mind with any changes that it is already represented.

Edit: and unit cost depending on location as well

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True, but I'm not sure it's good enough on short distances at the start of the game. I don't know, if I will develop this idea, it won't be soon anyway, so no worries for the moment.

[*]Replacement Organs added Metamaterials because I didn't think Cloning was enough, and I thought with Metamaterials, you could make replacement organs that were better than the ones being replaced.

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AFAIK Metamaterials are materials that make waves (usually light and sound) behave in a very specific fashion, not sure how they would help with the making of replacement organs?

I have a problem with the Treefarm/Hybrid Forest line : they were lifted straight from Alpha Centauri (where they are buildings, not terrain improvements, though terrain improvement probably fits better). The problem is that in SMAC(X) they represent the domestication of Alpha Centauri's native xeno-life and the integration of Earth-born life in the ecosystem. I like the game mechanic of making forests (and why not jungles?) better in the late game, but the reason they're in the tech tree should probably be rethought.

BlueTemplar said:

AFAIK Metamaterials are materials that make waves (usually light and sound) behave in a very specific fashion, not sure how they would help with the making of replacement organs?

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I think we're using the term Metamaterials more broadly than just material that reacts with electromagnetic waves. I think it makes a good technology for covering generally advanced materials science. Metamaterials currently leads to techs like Biomimetics and Vertical Farming, which I don't think have much to do with electromagnetic waves either.

EDIT: What if I move Replacement Organs from Metamaterials to Micromechanics? I think that coves the idea of improving organs from the inside better. Vertical Farming may also probably need a prerequisite change.

The last part of the Transhuman Era gets modified very little. What I have done here is to make all of the Transhuman techs lead into one another until Future Tech is reached.

Transhuman-4 gets modified slightly to weave a couple of technologies into the tree instead of having them be dead-ends.

• Megastructure Engineering adds Wireless Electricity because WE needed to be required for something and this looked like the best spot.
• Space Colonies exchanges Space Stations for Space Tourism so ST is required for something.

Transhuman-5 has slightly more techs than Transhuman-4. Regenerative Medicine plays a big part.

• Homo Superior has what I consider to be a mistake, as Smart Dust doesn't have much to do with superior people, but Smart Drugs do. Also, Smart Drugs didn't lead to anything so this looked like a good place to put it.
• Planetary Economics exchanges Androids for Personal Robots to give PR a mandatory tech to lead to and adds Megacorporations to give that tech a hook into the tree.
• Shielding adds Invisibility to give Invisibility something mandatory to hook into. I figure Shielding will require incredible electromagnetic control and Invisibility is a natural lead-in to tahat.
• Warmachines adds Hypersonic Flight because, as with a lot of other techs, HF needed to be mandatory for at least one tech and Warmachines looked best.

Transhuman-6 is where things start to really narrow.

• Artificial Life had two of its prerequisites changed from an OR to an AND to make Artificial Evolution mandatory for one tech.
• Terra Computer exchanges Nanobotics and Smart Dust for Nanomining (which requires both) in order to make Nanomining required for a tech.

Transhuman-7 is the end of the era. Quantum Computing figures into three of the four techs' prerequisites, but it's not what keeps these techs at this level -- that gets split between Advanced Shielding, Artificial Life, and Terra Computer.

• Interstellar Travel got placed on the other side of Advanced Shielding, as Advanced Shielding was an OR tech for Future Tech. I also think we are assuming no faster-than-light travel, so I made Cryogenics a requirement -- Cryogenics could be the standard requirement for crew and passengers, just passengers, the low-end passenger option, or an emergency system; I don't think that detail matters that much.
• Sentient Earth lost a redundant Regenerative Medicine, but I think this makes a good hook for Organic Cities.
• Weather Control loses a redundant Climate Models that I added to the prerequisites for Ecological Engineering.

Finally, Future Tech gets modified to wrap up everything with a little bow.

This is the map for the new Transhuman Era. Levels 1, 2, 3, and 5 all had to be split over two columns.

The cost scheme looks like this:
My target here was 905,100. This scheme adds up to 883,000: only 2% less. Future Tech does wind up more expensive than it was, but I think that Future Tech definitely needs to be more expensive. In a couple of games that I have played in the past, the most useful thing to do with Great People in the endgame was to hoard them and then cash them in for Future Tech; I think it wound up being only 2 GP per FT, which was really nice but probably too good.

So that's it for the revisions. The next step for me is getting all of these changes into code. I've been working on it somewhat; I'm about halfway through the Medieval Era right now. If anyone wants, I can post the raw files when I'm finished. This won't be very much -- it will be a new CIV4TechInfos.xml file, an additional game text file, and a folder full of icons for the new techs. The caveat is that this would be just the techs, and they will be empty of content.

After I finish coding, I will start a thread for the new content associated with these techs. These are the things that are getting moved around:

• State Church civic to Scriptures
• Artesian Well to Invention (I'm renaming the current Invention back to Alchemy and creating a new Invention)
• Heavy Cavalry to Invention (same idea)
• Press Agency to Journalism
• Cristo Redentor to Modern Art
• Shopping District to Consumerism
• Global Stock Exchange to Megacorporations

The new stuff:
Units

• Ram (available at Woodworking)
• Cog (available at Rudder)
• Galleass (available at Rudder)
• Hacker (available at Cyberwarfare)

Buildings

• Storyteller Circle (available at Storytelling)
• Carpenter (available at Woodworking)
• Palisade (available at Woodworking)
• Scriptorium (available at Scriptures)
• Apothecary (new stats) (available at Ancient Medicine)
• Satrap (new Persian Unique Building, replaces Courthouse)
• Advertising Agency (available at Propaganda)
• Zurich-Orbital Uplink (available at Megacorporations)

Wonders

• Hippocratic Oath (available at Ancient Medicine)
• Hanseatic League (available at Rudder and Guilds)
• Greek Fire (available at Alchemy)
• Crystal Palace (available at Imperialism)
• Reichstag (available at Imperialism)
• Bauhaus School (available at Modern Art)
• Madison Avenue (available at Consumerism)
• Woodstock (available at Counterculture)
• Burning Man (available at Counterculture and Communication Networks)
• Great Firewall (available at Cyberwarfare)

Projects

• Zurich-Orbital (available at Megacorporations)

Promotions

• Greek Fire (available at Alchemy, granted exclusively by the Greek Fire Wonder)

Looks perfect to me

45°38'N-13°47'E;12310882 said:

Now THIS is a VERY VERY nice suggestion! I especially like the last line, but I think this will need some coding that I'm not sure I'm able to do. Any idea/suggestion about it Vokarya?

Click to expand...

A new suggestion for Map Making
- prereq Mathematics (and Ancient astronomy if accepted)
- requires for Silk Road (currently Silk Road is definiatly available too early)
- until this tech Trade Caravan should get some limits : until this no foreign trade mission (maybe this limitation implementation is not so hard)

suggestion for later implementation :
- fixed border not allowed without this tech
- limited exploration range without this tech to all units (details discussed later)

Ancient Astronomy :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12307699&postcount=104
declined, accepted or need more discussion?

Semiconductors, Microprocessors, Fiber Optices, etc.. :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12309267&postcount=110
declined, accepted or need more discussion?

E_Pluribus_Unum said:

Ancient Astronomy :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12307699&postcount=104
declined, accepted or need more discussion?

Semiconductors, Microprocessors, Fiber Optices, etc.. :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12309267&postcount=110
declined, accepted or need more discussion?

Click to expand...

I'll consider both for the future, but for now, I'm really not sure. I'd like to test my first round of revisions first. I'm very uncertain about your computer suggestions, and I really do not want to make Personal Computers a separate tech; that is too close to Microprocessor to (I believe) separating the two.

How long till you start implementing changes?

Sgtslick said:

How long till you start implementing changes?

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It's going to be some time. I have so far updated the XML code (on my personal version, of course) up through the Medieval Era. Once I finish those changes, then I will post the raw files here for people to try out and start a new thread for all the additional buildings/units/wonders/etc. attached to the new technologies so that they aren't just empty filler techs.

Also, posting any changes to the SVN will need to wait until a new formal beta version of AND is released. Working on and balancing this new tree deserves to be placed at the beginning of a cycle.

I had another idea tonight. I was working on the Modern Era around Communication Networks. This is what I had originally proposed:

• Communication Networks requires Fiber Optics AND Globalization AND Guided Weapons AND Satellites.
• Stealth requires Composites AND Modern Warfare.

Communication Networks originally required Guided Weapons, and I left GW connected to CN because it wasn't connected to anything else at the time.

I think that Guided Weapons makes a better prerequisite for Stealth than Modern Warfare does (and MW is a prerequisite for GW). I'd like to switch GW for MW on Stealth and drop GW from Communication Networks. This would do the following:

• Communication Networks drops to Modern-6.
• Derivatives, Knowledge Management, Neural Networks, and Virtual Reality drop to Modern-7.
• Machine Learning, Space Tourism, and Wearable Computers drop to Modern-8.

The map would then look like this. It doesn't match perfectly with the dates (Space Tourism and Wearable Computers are two of the three post-2000 techs and they are both in the second-to-last column) but I think that's acceptable here.

What do you think?

I personally can't wait to see your work added in. It's been ages since I've made it to the Modern Era in any Mod. I applaud your thoughtfulness over these Tech tree corrections and refinements. Of course with any changes the real test comes from playing.

JosEPh

Sounds good to me