SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Yeah, play until just before you think you've got an adequate attack force--probably 10 or so turns--or until something "interesting" happens. Yes, assemble what you can in Drona as you go. You're not going to whip Bolly or Drona, right? ;) When will you be able to play? I'm a little distracted today so would prefer for kcd to give the final "Engage" command when he's happy.
 
Okey Dokey,
Played until 1AD,
nothing remarkable, we got the AP :clap:, armies on the road (mostly), Toku is strangely quiet, and not building many units - our power number is approaching his.
Another good thing is we continue to loss the corn but at a very slow rate (which should be even slower now that we have the AP). we should be able to crush his units immediately once we attack.

For the coming attack I would suggest using Osaka as a death trap for Toku at first. Take it, leave one or two double city archers, let him take it back them recrush, again and again.

Unfortunately they are all trading tech now.
I'll post all the stuff in a few minutes.
 
OK, the logs

SGOTM Log
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 275 BC to 1 AD:

Turn 104, 275 BC: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 104, 275 BC: Hatsegawa adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 104, 275 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 104, 275 BC: Shakagawa adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 107, 200 BC: The Great Library has been built in a far away land!

Turn 108, 175 BC: Rosalind Franklin (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Tsongkhapa (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 109, 150 BC: Hinduism has spread in Vijayanagara.
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have trained a Settler in Delhi. Work has now begun on Hindu Missionary.
Turn 109, 150 BC: The Kong Miao has been built in a far away land!

Turn 110, 125 BC: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 110, 125 BC: You have trained a Catapult in Vijayanagara. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 110, 125 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!

Turn 111, 100 BC: Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 112, 75 BC: Pataliputra has been founded.
Turn 112, 75 BC: You have trained a Catapult in Vijayanagara. Work has now begun on a Archer.

Turn 113, 50 BC: Bollywood has grown to size 9.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Drona has grown to size 8.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Drona can hurry The Apostolic Palace for 3⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Delhi has grown to size 6.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Holy Cow can hurry Catapult for 2⇴ with 25ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 113, 50 BC: You are the worst enemy of Shakagawa.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Bombay.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Bollywood.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Leaders of Hinduism have a vision of uniting all Hindu faithful under the The Apostolic Palace.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Gandhi has completed The Apostolic Palace!
Turn 113, 50 BC: You have constructed The Apostolic Palace in Drona. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Hatsegawa has founded Byblos in a distant land.
Turn 113, 50 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 114, 25 BC: Bollywood can hurry Catapult for 1⇴ with 47ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Bombay can hurry Catapult for 1⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Vijayanagara will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Vijayanagara can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 23ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 26 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: The borders of Bombay are about to expand.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Bollywood.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Vijayanagara will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Holy Cow will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 114, 25 BC: The borders of Bombay have expanded!

Turn 115, 1 AD: Vijayanagara has become unhappy.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Holy Cow has grown to size 3.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Holy Cow can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Pataliputra.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Delhi will grow to size 5 on the next turn.


Buffy Log
Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 104/500 (275 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:31:34]
Vijayanagara begins: Archer (9 turns)
60% Research: 64 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
40% Gold: -18 per turn, 21 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Construction
Bollywood finishes: Christian Temple

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Hatsegawa(Egypt) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'
Civics Change: Shakagawa(Zululand) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 105/500 (250 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:32:46]
Research begun: Alphabet (6 Turns)
Bollywood begins: Catapult (8 turns)
Vijayanagara begins: Catapult (17 turns)
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 19 per turn, 3 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bollywood grows to size 10

Turn 106/500 (225 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:44:17]
A Mine was built near Bollywood
Bollywood begins: Axeman (3 turns)
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 23 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Delhi
Whip anger has decreased in Bombay
Vijayanagara grows to size 5
Holy Cow grows to size 3

Turn 107/500 (200 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:48:06]
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 45 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bombay finishes: Hindu Missionary

Turn 108/500 (175 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:52:25]
Bombay begins: Hindu Missionary (10 turns)
Bollywood begins: Spearman (3 turns)
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 22 per turn, 66 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Vijayanagara
A Hamlet was built near Bombay

Turn 109/500 (150 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:54:16]
Hinduism has spread: Vijayanagara
A Farm was built near Bombay
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 25 per turn, 88 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi finishes: Settler
A Hamlet was built near Delhi
Vijayanagara grows to size 6

Turn 110/500 (125 BC) [30-Mar-2012 14:58:00]
Bollywood begins: Catapult (2 turns)
Bollywood begins: Catapult (2 turns)
A Mine was built near Bombay
A Farm was built near Drona
Delhi begins: Catapult (17 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 26 per turn, 113 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Bollywood
The whip was applied in Vijayanagara
Bollywood finishes: Catapult
A Village was built near Delhi
Vijayanagara finishes: Catapult

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shakagawa (Zululand) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 111/500 (100 BC) [30-Mar-2012 15:06:53]
Bollywood begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Bombay begins: Archer (7 turns)
Bombay begins: Catapult (13 turns)
A Farm was built near Bombay
Vijayanagara begins: Catapult (25 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 25 per turn, 139 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bollywood finishes: Catapult
Vijayanagara grows to size 5
Holy Cow grows to size 4
Holy Cow finishes: Granary

Turn 112/500 (75 BC) [30-Mar-2012 15:11:41]
Bollywood begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Holy Cow begins: Catapult (9 turns)
Pataliputra founded
Pataliputra begins: Granary (60 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 20 per turn, 164 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Vijayanagara
Bollywood grows to size 9
Bollywood finishes: Catapult
A Village was built near Holy Cow
Drona grows to size 8
Delhi grows to size 6
A Hamlet was built near Pataliputra
A Hamlet was built near Bombay
Vijayanagara grows to size 5
Vijayanagara finishes: Catapult

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shakagawa (Zululand) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 113/500 (50 BC) [30-Mar-2012 15:15:57]
Bollywood begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Pataliputra begins: Catapult (50 turns)
Vijayanagara begins: Catapult (25 turns)
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 17 per turn, 184 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Delhi
The whip was applied in Holy Cow
Drona finishes: The Apostolic Palace
Delhi finishes: Catapult
Holy Cow finishes: Catapult

Turn 114/500 (25 BC) [30-Mar-2012 15:23:50]
Delhi begins: Axeman (6 turns)
Holy Cow begins: Axeman (7 turns)
A Mine was built near Bombay
0% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 13 per turn, 201 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Vijayanagara
Bollywood finishes: Catapult
Delhi finishes: Axeman
Bombay's borders expand
Bombay finishes: Catapult
Vijayanagara grows to size 5
Vijayanagara finishes: Archer
Holy Cow grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Hinduism has spread: Bulawayo (Zulu Empire)

Turn 115/500 (0 AD) [30-Mar-2012 15:28:10]
Bollywood begins: Catapult (3 turns)
Delhi begins: Axeman (7 turns)
Bombay begins: Archer (7 turns)
Vijayanagara begins: Archer (13 turns)
A Farm was built near Bombay
 
Good job! :goodjob:

How long before we are ready to cause mayhem?:scan:
 
Excellent about the AP. :) We can attack in 3 or 4 turns. Osaka has 8 axes, 1 sword, 1 spear, and 2 archers, with 50% defense from walls, which also slows our bombardment (only 4% per turn unless we give whatever that promo is). If we attack from the corn we can start bombarding in 3 turns with 5 cats, then 6 next turn, and attack with 8 the next. Or... we can play it safer and move into the forest before bombarding, which means we DoW in 4 turns but can't start bombarding until 5T from now. Since we'll be outnumbered axe-wise my instincts say move to the forest first.

Drona has 5 axes, 1 archer, 1 warrior, 4 cats, plus 1 spear next turn. Bolly has 4 axes, 1 archer, 1 cat, plus 1 cat next turn. (Axes have not moved yet and should belatedly start moving to Drona.) 2 more cats are on the road between Bolly and Drona. Our scout in the south did not move north to explore the gap. :( Guess we'll wait for Alphabet and spies. The scout should move to the front in preparation to be Warlorded, and move the workboat to cover fogbusting. We can research Alphabet in 3 turns at 100%. Breakeven is 15% research, with ~23 bpt. Boy, it sux not having any trade routes. With 4 extra Hindu hammers from the AP, Bolly is now making 20 hpt. Drona has 16 hpt--it can build a Hindu temple in 3 turns (after finishing the 34/35 spear) to add another happiness and 2 hpt, but should probably build units. Holy Cow will finish an axe next turn.

Bolly will pop a GP in 4 turns--odds favor a Great Sci. We need to reassign some tiles/citizens--Bombay should take Vijay's deer now/soon and start growing. We need to make some GP plans--what flavor to favor and what to do with each kind. We have 1/2 the EPs to cause a revolt (doable if we have a spy wait for 5 turns) and plenty of EPs to start stealing techs--again, though, we'll need Alphabet/spies/stationary turns. We should definitely make use of tech stealing in this game.

Delhi has a missionary that can't be finished without OrgRel/monastery losing hammers, but whatcha gonna do? The Bombay missionary went to Vijay; the new city is not generating any culture and does not yet have a granary.

The next player gets to attack Osaka! Who's up?
 
Looks good AAA. :goodjob:

I think I am next in the queue. I will take a look at the save tomorrow, but my initial thought is we should attack from the forest SW of Osaka. That does put us closer to units from Kagoshima, but they would have to attack across the river.

I will look carefully at Xcal's suggestions tomorrow. (I had a crazy week at work, so :sleep:)
 
I'm up for forest as well...and a suggestion.

Trystero and AAA, would you mind if AAA played up until the turn before we're prepared to attack? As we'll need to stop and discuss for awhile there in anycase.
 
I'm up for forest as well...and a suggestion.

Trystero and AAA, would you mind if AAA played up until the turn before we're prepared to attack? As we'll need to stop and discuss for awhile there in anycase.

I'd be OK with that. My plan was to discuss the disposition of our forces, move them to position, and then evaluate a plan of attack.

Here is what I have so far:

Japanese forces:

Osaka: 1 sword (C1, CR1), 1 spear (C1, Shock), 8 axes (1 C2, 7 C1, Shock), 2 archers (CG2, Drill)

Kagoshima: 2 axes (1 C2, 1 C1, Cover), 1 archer (CG2, Drill).

Our forces:

Drona: 5 axes, 1 warrior, 4 cats, 1 archer (spear in 1 turn)

Holy Cow: 1 warrior, (axe in 1 turn)

Bollywood: 4 axes, 1 cat, 1 archer (cat in 1 turn)

Delhi: 1 archer (axe in 7 turns)

Bombay: 1 warrior (archer in 7 turns)

Vijay: 1 axe, 1 archer (archer in 1 turn)

Pataliputra: ungarrisoned

In transit:

2 cats on road to Drona (2 turns)

4 axes, 2 cats on road to Drona (5 turns)

I would recommend moving the 4 axes and 1 cat (and the one completed next turn) in Bollywood to Drona, and upgrading the warrior in Drona to an axe. This would give us 14 axes, 10 cats, and 1 spear for our stack. I might also move the archer from Vijay (and build another archer there) to Bollywood and the archer in Bollywood to Drona for use in stack defense.
 
Good job AAA :goodjob:

Forces look about ready. Need to be a bit careful, I don't expect that Toku would go for Drona once we DoW and take the forest, but I don't know. He could send a stack of Axes NW from Osaka. He also has 2 axes as noted in Kagoshima that could come from the South. Hmmm. Is there anyway we can get him to DoW on us and get his stack out of the city? Also avoids the "you declared on our buds" diplo hit.
 
Forces look about ready. Need to be a bit careful, I don't expect that Toku would go for Drona once we DoW and take the forest, but I don't know. He could send a stack of Axes NW from Osaka. He also has 2 axes as noted in Kagoshima that could come from the South. Hmmm. Is there anyway we can get him to DoW on us and get his stack out of the city? Also avoids the "you declared on our buds" diplo hit.

I think a Toku DoW is almost inevitable, based on the troops he is amassing in Osaka. We could wait for him to come to us while we build more troops and research Alphabet (and maybe IW?) to get spies out to scout his forces. That might be too passive an approach, however.

My real concern is Hammy. The troop movements outlined above would leave little protection on our Northern flank. A DoW against a fellow Buddhism might bring a Babylonian stack down on us, or one might be coming regardless.

I'm far too conservative when it comes to war. So the current plan might be the best one. Certainly eliminating or crippling Toku would improve our situation.
 
I'm feeling a bit better about our situation after reading this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11379273#post11379273

Whoever prompted that message must be in pretty bad straits.

:lol: Judging from the curves, nobody has submitted a save that shows real desperate straits. I'd guess someone's got a Bhudist AP to contend with. :crazyeye: I am soooooooo happy AAA got us the AP. :king:

Good job AAA :goodjob:

Forces look about ready. Need to be a bit careful, I don't expect that Toku would go for Drona once we DoW and take the forest, but I don't know. He could send a stack of Axes NW from Osaka. He also has 2 axes as noted in Kagoshima that could come from the South. Hmmm. Is there anyway we can get him to DoW on us and get his stack out of the city? Also avoids the "you declared on our buds" diplo hit.

Most AI won't try an offensive when you have a big stack in their territory, but Toku is kind of special in that regard. I fully expect him to move his stack OUT of Osaka towards Drona. Often he will do that kind of move at the exact wrong time (for him). He will either do that or just throw a lot of units at our stack. I do NOT expect him to be passive. So the forest is definitely the way to go. Leave Drona looking weak and you have more chance to draw his units away from Osaka. Just make sure you can get defense there in time if he tries to do the back-door maneuver.

Toku only has contact with Hammergawa, so the worst that could happen is that he uses HBR to bribe Babylon into war with us. We need to keep units in the north for that eventuality.

None of the Toku's are in WHEOOHRN, so I do not anticipate anybody declaring war on us of their own accord any time soon.



I think a Toku DoW is almost inevitable, based on the troops he is amassing in Osaka. We could wait for him to come to us while we build more troops and research Alphabet (and maybe IW?) to get spies out to scout his forces. That might be too passive an approach, however.

My real concern is Hammy. The troop movements outlined above would leave little protection on our Northern flank. A DoW against a fellow Buddhism might bring a Babylonian stack down on us, or one might be coming regardless.

I'm far too conservative when it comes to war. So the current plan might be the best one. Certainly eliminating or crippling Toku would improve our situation.

When the borders of VJ expand, we'll have a common border with Hammergawa and he'll start planning to go to war. Its inevitable. We'll get -diplo with him for DOW on Toku, but so what? All our relations will just keep getting worse as the game goes. Treat it like a beginners version of always war setting. Who cares what they think of us?:lol:

I don't think waiting for them to initiate is a good idea. We aren't just trying to win as comfortably as possible, we are trying to win as FAST as possible. ;)

I'm concerned about the Bhudist holy city. Its a monster.

BTW: I am against burning all our cash to get alphabet. Maybe half of it. But I don't want to start a war with less than 100gold in the bank, because units outside our territory will require more maintenance than we pay now. We will continue making more units, so we will probably be in the red at 0% by the time we finish this war.

Capturing cities should more than pay for the extra maint... but lets not bank on that, and keep a reserve, imo.

Espionage could be very useful. But we won't make much use of it until we have courthouses and can hire spies and use the Esp slider. Just keep it in mind that we do not have to be tech leaders, we can catch up pretty quick with this if needed. I'm more comfortable playing with a tech lead, though. ;)
 
Here is my opinion on the upcoming mayhem.

If I was doing it, I'd attack from 1 north of the corn(it needs a road), I'd promote three (maybe more)cat to accuracy and bombard Osaka close to 0% and sacrifice a few cats and kill everything before he has any chance to respond (or whip). We have the units, I believe. Then we heal on a road and in our own territory with a super medic. While Toku organizes a response, if possible, I'd scrub his roads within one of Osaka and then leave the stack in Osaka. When he responds in force with double raiding axes move out of Osaka let him have it, then wipe out his second stack. Then he will be vunerable and I'd make for his capital along the hills.

And with the good graces of Saint Sid:please:the rest would be clean up.
 
I've belatedly updated the Game Report post to include AAA's adventure.

Why attack from N of the corn, as opposed to the corn itself? In any case, Osaka's walls will halve our bombardment rate so I don't think it's possible to knock down the defenses and attack the same turn. Cats bombard 8%, but 4% with walls, so we'll need 12 or 13 hits. Accuracy promos will help (is it another 8% base? or maybe it doubles the base rate?) but I don't think we'll have enough cats to do it in one shot. Eh, maybe we could--if we bombard with 6 Accuracies and then 6 more CR2's that would be enough. I tend to prefer using mostly/all CR's, though, and we could attack with fewer units.
 
I've belatedly updated the Game Report post to include AAA's adventure.

Why attack from N of the corn, as opposed to the corn itself? In any case, Osaka's walls will halve our bombardment rate so I don't think it's possible to knock down the defenses and attack the same turn. Cats bombard 8%, but 4% with walls, so we'll need 12 or 13 hits. Accuracy promos will help (is it another 8% base? or maybe it doubles the base rate?) but I don't think we'll have enough cats to do it in one shot. Eh, maybe we could--if we bombard with 6 Accuracies and then 6 more CR2's that would be enough. I tend to prefer using mostly/all CR's, though, and we could attack with fewer units.

I'd go 1N because you don't want the wounded units exposed to a counterattack though the woods south of Osaka. Accuracy gives you plus ten, so with walls you get 9% a turn, I think. We'll have 8-10 cats, with 4 with accuracy you only have 16% to deal with. Use 3 cats at 4%/turn leave 4% behind and crash the city with 4 (assuming we do have ten). We'd probably only lose 2 cats and nothing would survive.

I hope:D
 
Have we decided whether AAA is going to continue? vra379971 suggested that. I'm fine either way. I won't be able to put together a PPP or play until Wednesday, due to a PTA meeting tomorrow night.

If I'm playing I'd like to flesh out an agreed upon order of battle since there seem to be a number of approaches being put forward, and our margin for error is small.
 
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