Jotnar project

So...all your unit builds are random? What if you just really need archers?
You build archers, only the race will be random (troll, goblin, giant, triton or anything else that fit the lore)
 
a bit like MoM's Aos'Si where the "colour" of the fairie depends on luck ?

I dislike this idea, it makes planning very difficult when you try to work with few powerful / high-xp units like me.
however I agree that it would work well for players that build lots of units as the final repartition of races would average.

I'd rather that you make a "limitation" on Jotnar "Giants" units, based on buildings (a bit like spawning, but different), but they can be built:
(you can see that as having a hard UPKEEP/max unit for giants and troll, and you have way to upgrade/change this upkeep)
like :
can build 1 Giant per city, and 1 Giant per "barrack" and 1 Giant per "Steading" (steading needs size 8 city), and 1 per stone/marble resource you have.
and you can build 1 troll per cow/horse/sheep/deer resource you have.
And you can build 1 triton per sea resource you have.
(it could be biaised by resource trading ... but IMO it's a small issue)

so then you would have 3 counters : available Giants, available trolls, and available triton. (or more with the other "race") the counter rises per building/city/resource increasing it and decrease every time you POSSESS a unit on the race, or lose one of the city/resource (or maybe the counter is permanently decreased each time a unit of the given race is built ? so that a lost giant is lost forever ???)

(and then titans mays need 2 giant slot + a given "age" promotion)

after that the balance aspect is more flexible as you can increase / decrease the counter growth by spreading it with the different buildings/ wonders / techs...Etc


(regarding you "bad improvement", I think it is a very complexe way of doing things... )

another idea (maybe better than my other proposal) would be to keep those "giant steading improvements" but have them buildable at will by the player (worker..) and have the "max number of giant " depend on those "improvement steadings" : like 1 per improvement and the improvement having, as you said, -10/-10/-10 yields.
then you could have special "troll dens" give +2 to troll counter, and buildable only in forest/jungle, giving -10/-10/-10 yield).

thus you can only have giant / troll units by sacrificing a usable tile;
(maybe the counter is increased only if such steading / den is workable by a city)
However, why I would prefer that:
-it gives your idea of destroying tiles
-no "random" thingy: YOU decide which tile gets the improvement
-more choice for the player : if you want to be peacfull you can CHOOSE to have bigger pop for science/building production, and sacrifying unit number in relation
-no strange mechanism where opo increases/decrease due to improvement: pop is limited by the food available and the number of units you build.
-balances both the city size AND the number of unit thingy.
-limits the number of giants while leaving the choice of having the unit or not too the player.
(you can change the balance so that a giant cost 2 giant counter points...)

well, my (disorganised) 0.2
 
I understand why you don't like the idea. But It's my favorite so far it and unless someone post a better one (read: one I like more), I will probably stick with it. Don't worry tough, giants won't be too rare and while I tend to be very lucky I'm not a fan of pure randomness in strategy game so I will expands that mechanic and give the player way to alter the outcome. Not sure how exactly but here's some idea

Some thing that could be used to alter the probability
- Town placement Ex: Workable water tile would give more chance to get a triton
- City size
- Ressources available
- Technologies
- Religions

A ritual called Rites of Reincarnation could let the civilization change the race of an unit <- Probably what you'd want to use. No limit, doubling production cost each time
A tech (divination?) could let the player choose between 2 possibility when a new unit is built
Each race could have a related national wonder building that make the city build only unit of a specific race (with altered cost)

Also I don't want a race to be totally useless.
- Triton will be able to go in water (and will be stronger in water)
- Stronger unit will have less (or no) chances to be goblin. They will be able to work tile, hurry production and may refund part of their production cost when built
- Giant... will be giant

For your first idea, I would simply not limit the number of giant instead of doing it like that, adjusting their production cost

Your second idea really isn't the feel I want the jotnar to have but with little modification could make an awesome mechanic for another civilization.
 
As I understand it the core concepts for a Jotnar civilisation are their lower birth rates and more powerful units. The two concepts are linked because the low birth rate implies that there are fewer of those powerful units.

Originally the small population was handled by limiting their cities to just one ring. This leads to a tightly packed city placement scheme which doesn't feel giantish (I'm assuming here, not having really played Jotnar). The proposed Steading improvement will place a similar control on the Jotnar population but will also give a sense that they live at a larger scale as their cities take up more tiles than those of any other civ. I like that improvement approach.

If using the improvements, some questions which arise are;
Can the player control their placement or is it just handled by python?
Is the number of giant units linked to the population or the number of these improvements, either through a spawning or hard limit function?
Can the AI handle it or is it to be a player only civ?
Will a human player be left with interesting decisions to make that will effect how well the civ performs?

I think it gives the player more control and interest if they can build the Steading improvements. I would limit where these can be built;
Must be touching a Jotnar city or another Steading (to reflect that they are in truth extensions of the city rather than completely separate entities).
Can only be built in certain terrains/features with a pre-requisite tech.

I'd allow city population to grow to a certain level without Steadings. To grow beyond this requires Steadings. The player can either position these optimally by having workers build them or when a population would have increased, a new Steading improvement is placed using python and the city doesn't gain the population that time. A player who plans ahead and builds the Steadings will get constant growth while one who doesn't will grow at a slower rate but will still grow.

Allowing the basic giant to be built and assigning a type (hill, frost, triton, etc) randomly on completion could work fine. I'd weight the chances of any particular type of giant sub species based on the tiles (terrain/features) where cities and Steadings have been built. This retains some chance but the player can influence it if he wants to focus on particular types or have a mix of giants.
Spoiler :
I don't think that there's a python function to count how many of a particular type of improvement a player has and there definitely isn't a shortcut function to tell you how many of each improvement you have on each terrain type. To minimise the calculation work on any turn I suggest that when a Jotnar city is founded or a Staeding is built that a non-tradable resource (Hill Clan, Triton Clan, etc) is created on the tile. There are functions to tell how many of a given type of resource a civ has so using this would allow simpler calculation functions. It would mean that any bonuses originally on the tiles where a city/Steading is built would be lost but as the player can control where these go, he should only lose resources by choice or negligence.


The same limitations would be applied to tolerant civs building in Jotnar cities.
 
As I understand it the core concepts for a Jotnar civilisation are their lower birth rates and more powerful units. The two concepts are linked because the low birth rate implies that there are fewer of those powerful units.

Originally the small population was handled by limiting their cities to just one ring. This leads to a tightly packed city placement scheme which doesn't feel giantish (I'm assuming here, not having really played Jotnar). The proposed Steading improvement will place a similar control on the Jotnar population but will also give a sense that they live at a larger scale as their cities take up more tiles than those of any other civ. I like that improvement approach.

Originally, the jotnar staedding (city) was limited to 10 population and one ring, they didn't had settler, instead they could sacrifice a level 5 fort commander to build a new city, a rework has been done for rise from erebus. The rework removed the population limit, give them acess to settler, made every of their city plot radius to 3. Changed their population food usage to 3. Giving a more giant feel to their city but apparently impossible to balance and getting away from the original lore (each city was supposed to represent a familly). Also, It felt like a mix between Kuriokates, archos and grigori mechanics.

My changes will make their mechanics unique but will stay far from the original lore (that should already had be rewritten with the rework)

Can the player control their placement or is it just handled by python?
Is the number of giant units linked to the population or the number of these improvements, either through a spawning or hard limit function?
Can the AI handle it or is it to be a player only civ?
Will a human player be left with interesting decisions to make that will effect how well the civ performs?

I think it gives the player more control and interest if they can build the Steading improvements. I would limit where these can be built;
Must be touching a Jotnar city or another Steading (to reflect that they are in truth extensions of the city rather than completely separate entities).
Can only be built in certain terrains/features with a pre-requisite tech.

I'd allow city population to grow to a certain level without Steadings. To grow beyond this requires Steadings. The player can either position these optimally by having workers build them or when a population would have increased, a new Steading improvement is placed using python and the city doesn't gain the population that time. A player who plans ahead and builds the Steadings will get constant growth while one who doesn't will grow at a slower rate but will still grow.

I intended to handle the improvement placement entirely by pyton but letting the player control the growth to some extend would be nice. For now the only control they would had is the last spawn priority (spawn on road). The way you propose would be harder to code for little benefit but I could give the jotnar worker an ability to plan expansion via another improvement (Jotnar district foundation) requiring the Construction technology and add it higher on the placement priority list.

I'd like for the AI to be able to use the civ correctly but I have no idea if they'll be able to without altering the dll. I may learn to do it if I feel they need it. But a period where they're player only may occur.

Allowing the basic giant to be built and assigning a type (hill, frost, triton, etc) randomly on completion could work fine. I'd weight the chances of any particular type of giant sub species based on the tiles (terrain/features) where cities and Steadings have been built. This retains some chance but the player can influence it if he wants to focus on particular types or have a mix of giants.

There isn't only giants in jotnar city. According to the wiki the jotnar familly are composed of multiple races held together by traditions. I've read goblin, troll, triton, giant. Some units description mention orc but it's probably a copy of another units entry. I would add more if I think about some that would fit within their city, maybe give Uxol's unit a chance to be halfbreed.

I want to let multiple thing alter the outcome and the tile a city can work is at the top of my list making each district give more meaning to their tile is a pretty neat idea.

I don't think that there's a python function to count how many of a particular type of improvement a player has and there definitely isn't a shortcut function to tell you how many of each improvement you have on each terrain type. To minimise the calculation work on any turn I suggest that when a Jotnar city is founded or a Staeding is built that a non-tradable resource (Hill Clan, Triton Clan, etc) is created on the tile. There are functions to tell how many of a given type of resource a civ has so using this would allow simpler calculation functions. It would mean that any bonuses originally on the tiles where a city/Steading is built would be lost but as the player can control where these go, he should only lose resources by choice or negligence.
The district mechanic hurt the jotnar enough without making their city remove existing ressources. I don't know if there's a shortcut or no but since the calculation will only be done when the unit spawn or when the player want to see the probabilities for a specific unit in a specific city the calculation will not slow the game when it isn't needed.
___________________

One of the main problem I have currently is that every jotnar unit need multiple tech in order to get and most of their units aren't replacing anything. So I'll have to adapt a lot if I don't want to destroy what's already created. Edit: isn't too bad, check next post

Easy unit to adapt look like Fyrd needing bronze working and cartography. So I would probably never give giant to axemen unless the civilization also have the cartography technology.

Harder unit to adapt would be like hurler, archer that only need only masonry. If I don't want to alter the jotnar too much I could give acess to archer when the race have either masonry or archery. Making one would only be able to give a goblin rockthrower or a hurler if they only have masonry. Or a troll, triton or goblin archer if they only have archery. A simpler way would be to spawn giant archer (hurler) only if the civilization have masonry

Or, I could remove almost every prerequiste and rework most the unit to fit with the normal ones

I like the fact that the jotnar need multiple tech in order to have a chance to spawn giant so I will probably try to keep the concept
 
Here is a list of most unit a normal civilization could build and possible unique jotnar result

Spoiler :
_______________
Worker units
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
worker
Goblinoid -> Thrall militia
Giantkin -> Huscarl (with crafting) *n
Triton ->(can work water tile, can build a sea farm)

_______________
Melee units
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Warrior
Goblinoid -> Thrall militia

Axeman
Giantkin -> Fyrd (with cartography)

Champion
Giantkin -> Jarl (with code of laws and training yard)

Phalanx
Giantkin -> Jotun

Immortal must be upgraded
Giantkin -> Vanir

Berserker

_______________
Recon units
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Scout
Trollkin -> Wild troll

Hunter
Troll -> Troll goblincatcher

Ranger
Troll -> Troll trailblazer

Beastmaster must be upgraded
Troll -> Troll elder

Assassin

Shadow must be upgraded

_______________
Archery units
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Archer special: can be built with masonry
Giantkin -> Hurler (with masonry)
Goblinoid -> Goblin rockthrower (without archery)
Trollkin -> Goblin rockthrower (without archery)
Triton -> Goblin rockthrower (without archery)

Longbowman
Giantkin -> Deadeye (with siege workshop)

Marksmanmust be upgraded
Giantkin -> Tryggvi (with gunpowder and master siegesmith)

Arquebus
Giantkin -> Tryggvi (with precision and master siegesmith)

Crossbowman

_______________
Arcane units
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Adept
Giantkin -> Sloegrrekkr

Mage
Giantkin -> Skald

Archmage
Giantkin -> Vala

_______________
Disciple units
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
tier 1
Giantkin -> Gothi
Trollkin -> Blotr**
Triton -> something ideally related to Lovecraft (need Octopus Overlord in city)
Goblinoid -> Blot**

tier 2
Giantkin -> Mouth of the Divine
Trollkin -> Hand of the Divine**
Triton -> Something else related to Lovecraft (need Octopus Overlord in city.)

tier 3
Giantkin -> Voice of the Divine
Trollkin -> Act of the Divine**
Triton -> Deep one** (need Octopus Overlord in city.)

*n mean the unit will need a nerf
** mean the unit will need to be created
Removed :
- Reaver - sailing and bronze working - mounted unit? can become a long boat?
- Freebooter - Reaver upgrade
The naval tech tree will be more triton-oriented
The mounted tech tree will be more goblin-oriented (Vargr rider)

Note:
The verb blóta meant "to worship with sacrifice"
The blót was a Norse pagan sacrifice to the Norse gods and the spirits of the land
 
IIRC you are right with the "history" of jotnar.
and IIRC I thought the RifE version was good, but maybe not enough.

my issue with jotnar was that I could never get enough GOLD to upgrade those Jotnar citizen: due to: low pop cities, multi-tech units, and high Hammer cost units so High upgrade costs.... SO I had mostly trolls (because hammer were ok) and very few Giants...
but then they played well with me, as I'm a keeper of units.. so old units becoming more powerful become OP.

IMO the OPness of Jotnar in RifE never was the CITIES, but that their units were spawning for "free" (so some better player than me could get the discipline to focus less on hammers and more on commerce and split the commerce toward gold, which is always hard for me) that the units are very powerful, even the trolls.

So, IMO, it is nice to work on the cities as you are doing, but some "soft" nerfs are easy to implement : 3F / citizen ; you could give +1unhealth per citizen or +1 unhappy per citizen ... just to show that Giantkin (and trolls...) take much space / consume much.

but IMO the real trick is to work on the units:
-making them more interesting to get (such as buildable)
-making them less OP : limiting their number somehow or curbing the growth or something.

well, lately, giving them multiple races for the same units is kinda like grigori... unless the stats changes... but then why would the units have the same "cost"...

well, my ramblings.
 
IMO the OPness of Jotnar in RifE never was the CITIES, but that their units were spawning for "free" (so some better player than me could get the discipline to focus less on hammers and more on commerce and split the commerce toward gold, which is always hard for me) that the units are very powerful, even the trolls.

So, IMO, it is nice to work on the cities as you are doing, but some "soft" nerfs are easy to implement : 3F / citizen ; you could give +1unhealth per citizen or +1 unhappy per citizen ... just to show that Giantkin (and trolls...) take much space / consume much.
That woul be the easy way, I prefer a nicer way to do it :D

but IMO the real trick is to work on the units:
-making them more interesting to get (such as buildable)
-making them less OP : limiting their number somehow or curbing the growth or something.

well, lately, giving them multiple races for the same units is kinda like grigori... unless the stats changes... but then why would the units have the same "cost"...

They will be buildable, and the species will have different bonus (giantkin +2 strength for example) the different race costing the same is a simple gamble mechanic choice. But I could defend it lore-wise since it's tradition for a jotnar warrior to craft his own weapon.
 
but IMO the real trick is to work on the units:
-making them more interesting to get (such as buildable)
-making them less OP : limiting their number somehow or curbing the growth or something.

For the Jotnar, a unit, such as a Jarl, represents a single giant who's gradually getting older. For other civs, the equivalent unit represents a "company" of warriors with their weapons, traditions, tactics, accumulated expertise, etc - some individuals die and they are replaced to bring the company back up to strength. For the Jotnar, as individuals, the possibility of aging too much could be used to prevent them from becoming OP. At a certain advanced age, the giant units could become weaker. At a later age, there could be a chance that they die (this chance could be modified by the overall health of the civilisation). This would tackle the problem of people keeping the giants around forever until they are an OP, unstoppable force. It would encourage player's to use the Jotnar when (some of) the Jotnar are at their peak. If a Jotnar dies due to old age, some of his legacy should go to the state, i.e. Gold (to cover the cost of buying/upgrading a new replacement unit) and if they had the Spirit Guide promo then their experience isn't completely lost either.
(I know hero units represent individuals that don't die naturally due to age but I'm ignoring that for the sake of a unique mechanic.)

I think that in RifE 1.30, only the Jotnar citizens automatically gained xp and that once they upgraded into combat units as opposed to workers that they lost the automatic xp gain. If using the death from old age mechanism, then the xp gain should continue for all units, not just the workers.

I reinstalled RifE 1.30 to see what info was there for Jotnar. While Triton is mentioned, the unit is not included. Entries for other units are cut and pastes from other civs. Updating to 1.31 removed the Jotnar as a playable option. What is the best link for the lore on the Jotnar and the various Jotnar unit types?
 
The Jotnar were originally incorporated into Fall Further. I'm not sure how much the FF team changed from the original concept (we know the RifE team did). Anyway, here's the thread I found with the original module (and a link to an earlier thread discussing the idea).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278848
Thanks. That had the lore I was looking for and might have the artwork Erikulum was looking for. Haven't finished reading the whole thread but a lot of the suggestions I would have made have already been discussed a bit.

Seafaring Giants
I think you are right to get rid of the Reavers. From the civilipedia, they just look to be stolen from the Austrin and there's no particular reason for the Jotnar to get that ability if you are not giving it to every civ.

One thing I didn't like in the mod in that original thread was the use of the serpents and turtles as transports (with a cargo capacity of 3). I think it fits more if these are just attack beasts.

For giant sea faring, I thought the most giantish way of handling it would be for some of them to be tall enough to wade through coastal waters but that the ocean was to deep for them. Simplest way to do that is to give them Water Walking combined with Can Not Enter Ocean. AI should be able to handle the route planning with that. This could be tied into an age promotion for the giantkin or else a unit ability for some of the giant units.
It would be neater if their movement was reduced to 1 in coastal tiles to reflect their progress being slowed by wading through the water. That could be handled through an auto acquire/must maintain promotion.

For the smaller giants and the trolls, transport through coastal waters could be handled by having one of the wading giants carry them. I'm not sure but I think potential cargo units can be limited (to avoid one giant wading through coastal waters carrying a much bigger one).

Alternatively, transporting the giants across the seas could be just handled by the Triton and some giant ships. I'd picture the giant ships as being purely for transport; massive lumbering craft, too unwieldy to be able to attack effectively in naval war. These could transport a few giants. I think the Triton shouldn't be transporting more than one unit (after all they are transporting giants).

The Triton are described as fickle, lazy and good at training the serpents and turtles. I think it might be appropriate to give them Commander functionality but limit their available promotions to those suitable to naval command. I imagine them as too lazy to attack directly themselves but would instead send serpents and turtles in to attack enemies. In the original, they were land units with water walking rather than purely sea units. I think amphibious works for them but I think they should suffer if they stay on land for too long. I'd like an auto acquire/must maintain promo for them when on land to;
Prevent healing
Lower attack and defence
Gradually decrease their health

I wouldn't tie the Triton or any of their naval units to OO as that's a big limitation on their religious options.

One of the suggestions in that original thread was for the serpents and turtles to dive deep. I think this would be an interesting mechanic for the serpents, turtles and triton (when not carrying any passengers). When they have dived, they'd be invisible, have zero visibility and can not attack but can pass through foreign territory. They'd need to surface again before they attack but it does allow a naval strike force to get secretly into position.

For someone who hasn't triton or whatever tech is required for the massive giant transport ships, you could allow some giants to learn swimming. This would allow wading giants to move out into ocean tiles. As they'd have to swim to do this, they would no longer be able to transport other units. Their attack/defence would also be weaker as they wouldn't have their feet firmly on the ground.

Spoiler :

There isn't only giants in jotnar city. According to the wiki the jotnar familly are composed of multiple races held together by traditions. I've read goblin, troll, triton, giant. Some units description mention orc but it's probably a copy of another units entry. I would add more if I think about some that would fit within their city, maybe give Uxol's unit a chance to be halfbreed.

My suggestion doesn't run counter to this - it was only to provide a mechanic for influencing the frequency of sub species types. All of the sub species could live in the cities and Steading improvements but the dominant sub species on the tile is the one which influences the odds. Bit of a moot explanation as you aren't planning to use the mechanic.
 
Thanks. That had the lore I was looking for and might have the artwork Erikulum was looking for.
I already found the artwork I was looking for but I'll look into that thread, maybe some thing I can use had been remove since then

Seafaring Giants
I think you are right to get rid of the Reavers. From the civilipedia, they just look to be stolen from the Austrin and there's no particular reason for the Jotnar to get that ability if you are not giving it to every civ.
The jotnar seem to have a lot of thing stolen from other civ and I will remove those that don't feel right. For example, the giant can feed on thrall, a calabim vampire mechanic.

For giant sea faring, I thought the most giantish way of handling it would be for some of them to be tall enough to wade through coastal waters but that the ocean was to deep for them. Simplest way to do that is to give them Water Walking combined with Can Not Enter Ocean. AI should be able to handle the route planning with that. This could be tied into an age promotion for the giantkin or else a unit ability for some of the giant units.
It would be neater if their movement was reduced to 1 in coastal tiles to reflect their progress being slowed by wading through the water. That could be handled through an auto acquire/must maintain promotion.
The Jotnar giants currently use a elemental kin mechanic, costing 100 gold to aquire and needing a coresponding tech. Seakin, in this case can be taken when they have the fishing technology and allow the giant to travel on water tile, make them weaker on land but stronger in water, and cast soak. With the elementalist technology they gain capsize and part water (waterwalk). I'm really not sure I like these promotion since some give acess to very powerfull spell an abilities. I will probably alter them a lot, removing part of the bonuses, change the tech providing them and add the coresponding mana type as a requirement.

For the smaller giants and the trolls, transport through coastal waters could be handled by having one of the wading giants carry them. I'm not sure but I think potential cargo units can be limited (to avoid one giant wading through coastal waters carrying a much bigger one).
Mmm, giving every giant unit one cargo space would be an nice concept.

Alternatively, transporting the giants across the seas could be just handled by the Triton and some giant ships. I'd picture the giant ships as being purely for transport; massive lumbering craft, too unwieldy to be able to attack effectively in naval war. These could transport a few giants. I think the Triton shouldn't be transporting more than one unit (after all they are transporting giants).
I like the giant transport ship idea. I'd make it an early acess unit costing no maintenance give it a lot of cargo space (7?) but each giant would take 3 place and the ship would have 0 movement when no giantkin are in.

The Triton are described as fickle, lazy and good at training the serpents and turtles. I think it might be appropriate to give them Commander functionality but limit their available promotions to those suitable to naval command. I imagine them as too lazy to attack directly themselves but would instead send serpents and turtles in to attack enemies. In the original, they were land units with water walking rather than purely sea units. I think amphibious works for them but I think they should suffer if they stay on land for too long. I'd like an auto acquire/must maintain promo for them when on land to;
Prevent healing
Lower attack and defence
Gradually decrease their health
So I will give triton worker a lower work rate.
I'm currently looking for way to make their naval tech tree less useless. Maybe give an altered commander promotion to recon triton unit allowing them to command only sea monster that would need be built in coastal city. Better naval tech would give acess to better sea monster. The sea monster would be almost useless when they're not commanded.
They will have bonuses in water but giving them restriction and promotion when in certain environement is very nice. I'll start by adding cannot enter desert (arid climate) to the triton promotion and will 2 promotion;
- 30% reduce healing when in non-water, non-city, non-humid climate
- Damage over time on semi-arid and arid climate



I wouldn't tie the Triton or any of their naval units to OO as that's a big limitation on their religious options.
I won't but the naval tech tree will be more triton oriented, like the recon tech tree is more troll oriented. The only religious limitation is for disciple unit. Triton priest will only spawn when the city have the octopus overlord religion. And other disciple unit will almost never spawn if the civilization use it as a state religion. It should make sense if you've read Shadow over Innsmouth.
One thing I didn't like in the mod in that original thread was the use of the serpents and turtles as transports (with a cargo capacity of 3). I think it fits more if these are just attack beasts.
One of the suggestions in that original thread was for the serpents and turtles to dive deep. I think this would be an interesting mechanic for the serpents, turtles and triton (when not carrying any passengers). When they have dived, they'd be invisible, have zero visibility and can not attack but can pass through foreign territory. They'd need to surface again before they attack but it does allow a naval strike force to get secretly into position.

The sea serpent and giant turtle seem to have been removed from their civilization since then. As i just said I want to add sea monster for triton. But some like a giant turtle fighter beast (with 3 cargo space) could be used elsewhere.
I like the dive mechanic. If I add it I'll make sure to give the triton assassin a sunken ship ability

For someone who hasn't triton or whatever tech is required for the massive giant transport ships, you could allow some giants to learn swimming. This would allow wading giants to move out into ocean tiles. As they'd have to swim to do this, they would no longer be able to transport other units. Their attack/defence would also be weaker as they wouldn't have their feet firmly on the ground.
Since one turn represent a long time (months?) I think they would drown anyway, even if they know how to swim. I think they'll have enough way to travel on water without this addition.
 
Are you making any progress on your update of this modmod?
 
Very slowly, I started learning python, easy enough but learning a new language can be very boring. I also restarted playing Path of Exile so...

I want to keep this project alive but you'll probably need to be patient if you want to play with it
 
Isn't -10 food a bit to much? My size 20 cities rarely get more than 40 food available ...

Imho, one -10 penalty is enough to keep the city at size 2 forever??

EDIT: Nevermind, the penalty doesn't affect the city beyond 0 ...


What I'd like to see is having the Jotnar District be a concious decision, and preferably require an adjacent Jotnar District or City (perhaps using a form of the 'irrigation' code?)

This District would increase your max Giants by 1.
 
Isn't -10 food a bit to much? My size 20 cities rarely get more than 40 food available ...

Imho, one -10 penalty is enough to keep the city at size 2 forever??

-10 just means the tile will never contribute to food production, even if the Jotnar worked it for some reason. It won't actually subtract from food produced elsewhere. It's just to make the district tiles worthless and limit the tiles that a Jotnar city can effectively work.
 
I hear ya. I suppose Jotnar districts could affect Giants and Trolls ...

Perhaps aquatic Triton districts could affect Triton limits? (built with fishingboat)
 
Deleted as quoted instead of edited.
 
Hi,

I was planning on looking at the python for this but your download wouldn't work for me.

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Possible method to deal with improving district defences, based on assumption that there'll initially be a Jotnar citizen, spawned and bound to each district. As I picture the district defences, they'll be at a scale that would cause a problem for other species but giants would be able to bypass them more easily, i.e. the Jotnar get a defensive benefit, those who take the district from the Jotnar don't get the same defensive benefit.
- build "Train militia"/"District Defences" in the city
- when the building is in the city, a Jotnar citizen in one of the surrounding districts can cast a spell to give them a promotion (and remove the building), effectively giving a defensive boost to a district.


Slight rethink after looking at the XML:
Citizen casts Prepare plans. Pre-requisites are palisade or walls in nearby Jotnar city and no Plans building in the city.
The spell gives the Citizen the Plans promotion and creates the Plans building in the city.
The Plans building along with a Palisade or Walls allows building Extend Palisade or Extend Walls respectively. Once either of these is built python upgrades the District where the Citizen with the Plans promotion is to Palisaded District or Walled District and removes the Plans and Extend x buildings and the Plans promotion.

This would allow the player to selectively improve district defences by building in the city.

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You could use a giant cargo (1,2,3) for the large ships. They would be simple promotions that reduce a ships cargo capacity by 2. The ship gets one of these promos for each unit with the giantkin promotion that it is carrying. To stop players trying to exploit it by putting a couple of standard units on before all the giantkin you could also have an Overloaded - this would reduce a ship's movement by 3 and would be auto acquired if the number of units carried exceeded a ship's current capacity.

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Unique Civic Concept: Breeding
"Love is a luxury we can afford no longer"
This increases unhappiness, slows unit training but allows the player to select the race when a unit is finished.
 
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