SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

Assuming a T201 capture of Hastings is possible, just a reminder than you want to revolt before capturing Hastings (and founding Silver as you have noted)

Is FH building the trireme New Jersey or whipping a courthouse? you have it whipping a courthouse and then workboats. And later suggest we get New Jersey from it. I'm ambivalent which way you go here. I think trireme are rapidly becoming obsolete and really only needed for barb galley protection and possibly a little bit of scouting, however the courthouse in FH isn't super critical either.

We might want to wait to grow CC to 12 pop until we get the cows pastured and hooked up (or can trade for another health resource). If we grow CC to 12 with full health we get another scientist for longer (the granary food is used more efficiently). So rather than run 7 coast on T203 we do it on the turn before we expect another health resource in addition to the sheep.

P.S. by the way it looks like the spreadsheet is having CC lose food due to unhealthiness during a revolt. That isn't how it works in the real game.

I don't think we produce espionage during the revolts so you might want to put a little bit extra into Willem's espionage T199 and T200 to maintain a view of his research during the revolts.

pdf shows Furry Crabs working on a theater. I assume this is either a trireme as you have in the PPP or warrior/galley as I suggested above
 
Assuming a T201 capture of Hastings is possible, just a reminder than you want to revolt before capturing Hastings (and founding Silver as you have noted)

Is FH building the trireme New Jersey or whipping a courthouse? you have it whipping a courthouse and then workboats. And later suggest we get New Jersey from it. I'm ambivalent which way you go here. I think trireme are rapidly becoming obsolete and really only needed for barb galley protection and possibly a little bit of scouting, however the courthouse in FH isn't super critical either.

Yeah the PDF is a bit out of sync with respect to the theatre shuffling. Will adapt it from the PPP before play. Didn't have time to sync all of it before posting.

We might want to wait to grow CC to 12 pop until we get the cows pastured and hooked up (or can trade for another health resource). If we grow CC to 12 with full health we get another scientist for longer (the granary food is used more efficiently). So rather than run 7 coast on T203 we do it on the turn before we expect another health resource in addition to the sheep.

Yep

P.S. by the way it looks like the spreadsheet is having CC lose food due to unhealthiness during a revolt. That isn't how it works in the real game.

OK... by later in this turn set the details of the plans become fairly irrelevant. Everywhere is growing and working decent tiles consistent with the objectives (e.g. SM works Pmine not coast if it's building workboats or theatres for the empire)

I don't think we produce espionage during the revolts so you might want to put a little bit extra into Willem's espionage T199 and T200 to maintain a view of his research during the revolts.

Yep.

pdf shows Furry Crabs working on a theater. I assume this is either a trireme as you have in the PPP or warrior/galley as I suggested above

PPP supersedes - sorry for the conflict.

I have edited in your earlier suggestions to the PPP
 
Growing CC to 12 pop Revisited (sorry)

If we don't worry about growing to 12, then on T200 we can run 2 scientists, 1 engineer, GM, PM, 3Clams, Corn, 4 coast. Then later we don't have to switch off 7 scientists to grow.

So not growing to 12 let's us run 10 specialists-turns (3 of which not under pacifism) and gets us 9 raw extra hammers.
So 81 :gp: and 9 :hammers: and 57 :science:

vs.

Growing to 12 pop with 30 food in granary and enough health resources to sustain 12 pop allows us to run an extra 15 specialist-turns under pacifism.

so 135 :gp: and 90 raw :science:

But at 11 pop you could give up the corn farm to Fish Hills for ~6 turns and run an 8th scientist which swings the totals in favor of not growing to 12 and helps out Fish Hills to boot.
 
Welcome back aj ?
Yes, I am indeed back. I'm catching up on the large volume of posts with the limited time that I have.
 
I doubt you have to read all the older posts to contribute to the current discussions. The most recent PPP and a look at the save probably would be enough.
 
Growing CC to 12 pop Revisited (sorry)

If we don't worry about growing to 12, then on T200 we can run 2 scientists, 1 engineer, GM, PM, 3Clams, Corn, 4 coast. Then later we don't have to switch off 7 scientists to grow.

So not growing to 12 let's us run 10 specialists-turns (3 of which not under pacifism) and gets us 9 raw extra hammers.
So 81 :gp: and 9 :hammers: and 57 :science:

vs.

Growing to 12 pop with 30 food in granary and enough health resources to sustain 12 pop allows us to run an extra 15 specialist-turns under pacifism.

so 135 :gp: and 90 raw :science:

But at 11 pop you could give up the corn farm to Fish Hills for ~6 turns and run an 8th scientist which swings the totals in favor of not growing to 12 and helps out Fish Hills to boot.

I'm not sure whether bc is comparing two or three plans here, but it sounds like the upshot is that we grow to 11 and shuffle the food in CC's box to FH by allowing FH to have the corn tile for a bunch of turns and running an eighth scientist.

So I plan to run six scientists while slowly growing to 11 to sync with getting sheep to be healthy at 11, then eight to shuffle the food to FH.
 
I'm not sure whether bc is comparing two or three plans here, but it sounds like the upshot is that we grow to 11 and shuffle the food in CC's box to FH by allowing FH to have the corn tile for a bunch of turns and running an eighth scientist

yes, that is the upshot. Grow to 11, after revolt give FH the corn, run 8 scientists until granary food is depleted then 7 scientists with clam and corn forever more. It is better than growing to 12 primarily because FH gets the food from the corn and we get a few more hammers in CC this way. Growing to 12 gets us about the same :gp: :science: as the above plan gets minus a few hammers and food for FH.

And the above plan gets the :gp: on the front end while growing to 12 spreads out the extra :gp: over a long period of time.
 
yes, that is the upshot. Grow to 11, after revolt give FH the corn, run 8 scientists until granary food is depleted then 7 scientists with clam and corn forever more. It is better than growing to 12 primarily because FH gets the food from the corn and we get a few more hammers in CC this way. Growing to 12 gets us about the same :gp: :science: as the above plan gets minus a few hammers and food for FH.

Isn't it better to run scientists to slow growth before the switch (even though they're less efficient than they will be after the switch) because we want the :science: and don't so much want the :hammers: from engineers and mines?
 
Isn't it better to run scientists to slow growth before the switch (even though they're less efficient than they will be after the switch) because we want the and don't so much want the from engineers and mines?

after we grow to 11, on T200, yes limit growth by running 2 scientists, an engineer, the mines, etc.Then after the revolt switch to 8 scientists until granary food is depleted.
 
putting my new suggestion together (only grow to 11 not 12)

On T199 after taoism revolt we set up to grow to 11, running scientists, etc if the food isn't needed.

then on T200 we can run 2 scientists, 1 engineer, GM, PM, 3Clams, Corn, 2 coast.

then after revolts start off with 8 scientists 3 clams (giving corn to FH) until granary food is depleted

then 7 scientists 3 clams and corn forever more.
 
putting my new suggestion together (only grow to 11 not 12)

On T199 after taoism revolt we set up to grow to 11, running scientists, etc if the food isn't needed.

then on T200 we can run 2 scientists, 1 engineer, GM, PM, 3Clams, Corn, 2 coast.

then after revolts start off with 8 scientists 3 clams (giving corn to FH) until granary food is depleted

then 7 scientists 3 clams and corn forever more.

OK, but we're unhealthy at size 11 on turns T200,203,204 before (I estimate) we get sheep on T205. It seems to me better to avoid growth to 11 until that time, and at that time switch to eight scientists and send the corn away. Then revert to seven scientists with a handful of food left in the box (avoid getting unhealthy for a turn and losing a population).

The strategy detail for avoiding growth is a separate issue. I do not think we really want the hammers or the engineer :gp: poisoning. I think the slowing on T200,3 and 4 should be done with scientists.
 
bc and I discussed CC on IM. I was erroneously trying to run six scientists before Caste. We have agreed that it is best to run two scientists and a pile of coasts pre-Caste, then eight scientists giving corn to FH, then revert to seven scientsts with corn when the food box is almost empty. The unhealthiness issue is unfortunate, but trying to manage it is worse than the disease.
 
I don't have access to the game save from where I am at, but I will try contribute to whatever I can.

I noticed we had a GS born on T188 called Darwin. Ironically, on May 14th when bcool played that set I was actually in the city of Darwin, Australia! Using it to build an Academy was almost certainly the correct move.

From Mab:
The GScientist plan is something like one each for Astro, Edu, Gunpowder, Chemistry with options for a second on Edu and Chem, or even out to PP and SciMeth if we think we need to go as far as Communism for State Property. Without Pacifism, in my test game GScientists were arriving about every 9-10 turns, so we are definitely in the zone for four+ GScientists in very short order.
and Mab again
Off the top of my head, Compass, (hopefully trade for Machinery), Optics, (single-bulb Astro), (hopefully trade for Feudalism), Guilds, CS, Paper, (double-bulb Edu), Gunpowder, Engineering, (double-bulb Chemistry), Nationalism, finish Astro, Lib->Steel. There is some trick to the timing of Engineering, but I don't recall offhand what it is. Maybe CS-Paper-Edu have to come after the Chemistry bulbs.

I think the tech list above is mostly ok, except I would dispute the ordering a little bit. Researching CS->Paper->Education may not even be required, and in fact can hinder our bulbing of things like Engineering, Astronomy and Chemistry.

Recall the GS tech preference order for relevant techs to us:
Scientific Method
Education
Printing Press
Chemistry
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Compass
Engineering
Liberalism
Machinery
Gunpowder
Military Science (BTS)
Theology
Civil Service

Thinking out loud
If we avoid CS and Theology, then Paper, Education, SciMeth, and PP are all safely ignored. I think we could happily bulb Astro (x2), Engineering, Gunpowder and Chemistry (x2). At that point, we could even bulb Military Science (x2 bulbs) to unlock Ships of the Line and Grenadiers, which are potentially a more powerful combo than Cannon from Steel.

The big cost here is that Nationalism requires Civil Service...

Corrected CC will be producing something like 32 base :gp:, ie, 96 :gp:/turn. We're now part way through GPerson #3? I'll guess 235/450 :gp: into it. The next 6 GPersons will cost 300+600+750+900+1050+1200 = 4,715:gp:, ie, 49 turns to Chemistry. From there it is 30 more turns to get another 2 GS to bulb Military Science, presumably whilst teching Steel or whatever, but by that stage hopefully things are all sewn up.

If we accidentally pop a GM it can go off on a trade mission. Any non-GS/GM can be saved/burned for a Golden Age.

Possible tech path from here: Compass (trade?) -> Optics (tr?) -> Machinery (tr?) -> Astro (2x bulb) -> Feudalism (tr?)-> Guilds (tr?) -> Engineering (bulb) -> Gunpowder (bulb) -> Chemistry (2x bulb) -> STOP! Or continue on to CS->Nationalism or Steel or Military Science (2x bulb).

Nationalism could be moved up the list if we insert CS in the queue after Gunpowder, since Chemistry is still a higher priority than Paper.
 
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