[Module]The Myu Collective

The spirit should be able to enter rival territory, but the Summon Form or whatever the recall spell is should not be castable. I don't know if that's possible to do without making it uncastable even when at war, or with open borders.

Oranos said:

The spirit should be able to enter rival territory, but the Summon Form or whatever the recall spell is should not be castable. I don't know if that's possible to do without making it uncastable even when at war, or with open borders.

Click to expand...

I'm sure that it's possible. I don't know how to do it, but I can figure it out. Actually, if I'm going to go that route, I think I would want it to pop up the "Declare War?" box if you try to cast it in enemy territory...

Bug report: In my game, AI Myu started without Settlers, also every turn I get a lot of py exceptions, like this:


Dunno if it is caused by your mod or not, since I have many others enabled.

Hmm... starting without a Settler doesn't make much sense to me... Also, I'm not calling the canTrain function from my code, so I'm wondering if it's caused by another mod or a weird interaction of that mod with mine. What mods are you running? I'll try to do some testing on my end.

Also, are you using the most recent version of the Myu (0.12)? There was a bug in 0.10 that caused python exceptions if the AI used the Myu. But that's cleared up (and it was a different exception than what you're getting), and I've seen the AI actually do pretty well with them.

Sjru said:

Bug report: In my game, AI Myu started without Settlers, also every turn I get a lot of py exceptions, like this:

Code:

Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvGameInterface", line 146, in canTrain

  File "CvGameUtils", line 1012, in canTrain

NameError: global name 'Civ' is not defined
ERR: Python function canTrain failed, module CvGameInterface
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvGameInterface", line 146, in canTrain

  File "CvGameUtils", line 1012, in canTrain

NameError: global name 'Civ' is not defined
ERR: Python function canTrain failed, module CvGameInterface
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvGameInterface", line 146, in canTrain

  File "CvGameUtils", line 1012, in canTrain

Dunno if it is caused by your mod or not, since I have many others enabled.

Click to expand...

maybe you started without a settler if a wild mana node (and/or wild mana guardian) landed on your settler's position. if on the starting screen there is such a guardian, that my be the case.
(the guardian (and wild node) appears after the units and overwrite them)
It happened once for me, without using myu.

Maybe is because I've used the Flavour replacement you provide in the first post?.
When I've checked them, they just had claimed a citadel and had a scout. Nothing else.

EDIT: Have you updated the version.txt in the module? It's says 0.11, even if I download it again, so I'm confused if I'm using the last version or not.

Sjru - I think Calavente hit the nail on the head with the no Settler thing. Unless you weren't playing with Wild Mana on?

If you let me know which mods you're playing with, I can test out the python error thing. The flavour start thing should only make a difference if you copied it in wrong. If you copied it to the right place, it should work fine if Myu are in the game and should be ignored it they aren't. If it's wrong, then it should throw a python exception in GetCivFlavourData, not in anything else. And shouldn't effect what units they start with.

And yeah... oops... I didn't update the version.txt for version 0.12. Sorry. Will be fixed in the next version. Currently adding a Slinger UU (actually, an Archer UU, but he's very similar to the Dwarven Slinger with access to Air, and they gain Channeling 2 at level 5), changing the Shadow Jaunt spell (mostly working, but for some reason auto-casting it is causing problems), and adding "Warp Beast", a buildable animal unit that comes in at Animal Handling.

Warp Beasts don't replace Rangers, because the Grey Seer UU replaces Ranger and is available one tech earlier. In a way, Warp Beasts replace the mounted line. I was thinking about adding in a mounted line with access to dimensional mana, but was having a hard time working it in. Instead, Warp Beasts are 6 3 units that start with Dimensional 2 (considering changing this to: start with teleportation and have access to Dimensional), but have a chance to go barbarian if you don't have a Beastmaster on their tile. There will be a spell (either Dimensional 2/Mind 2, Dimensional 2/Mind 1, or just a Warp Beast special ability) that creates a beacon and other units of yours can warp to it (either all units, all psionic units, or all units with Dimensional 1 - haven't decided yet). Art is a reskin of the Tiger, which I think looks pretty cool if I do say so myself.

EugeneStyles said:

Sjru - I think Calavente hit the nail on the head with the no Settler thing. Unless you weren't playing with Wild Mana on?

Click to expand...

I was referring the AI, that started without a settler. I just think that the flavourmod you provide maked, in that case, a bad start. Yes, I do play with WM on, so it may be that if you say so.

If you let me know which mods you're playing with, I can test out the python error thing. The flavour start thing should only make a difference if you copied it in wrong. If you copied it to the right place, it should work fine if Myu are in the game and should be ignored it they aren't. If it's wrong, then it should throw a python exception in GetCivFlavourData, not in anything else. And shouldn't effect what units they start with.

Click to expand...

Hum, sorry, it turned out that the py exceptions were caused by the civ.ini gone wild (Corrupted somehow). Now it's works perfectly.

Just noticed something when going through the XML - it's possible that a couple of psionic spells may have been available to non-psionic units with the right spell spheres (specifically Mutable Landscape or Coalesce), because the requirements were specified incorrectly in the XML. This will be fixed in the next version, but just a heads up if someone has mages with Mind 2 / Earth 2 or Mind 2 / Shadow 2 for whatever reason. Not that I often see mages with either of those combinations...

Just got done developing Mind 1/Air 1 and Mind 2/Air 2 psionic spells. The Archer line will have access to Air, though the only way to get Air mana will be the old fashioned way of linking up an Air node. Anyone have any balance thoughts on these two spells:

Deflect Arrows
Requires Mind 1, Air 1, Psionic
Gives all units in the stack Deflect Arrows (+40% vs. Archers - same as Cover I). As far as persistance, it works the same as haste, in that you must have a caster capable of casting it in the stack for it to stick around.
This is meant to be somewhat balanced with Enchanted Blade. On the one hand, it gives a promotion equal to one regular promotion (same as Cover I, just as Enchanted Blade is the saem as Combat I). However, it gives to all units in the stack instead of just Melee, so it's a little stronger. I think this is balanced okay because it requires 2 spell spheres. It's meant to be somewhat offensive in nature, giving you a better chance to attack a city defended by high defense archers.

Mental Barrier
Requires Mind 2, Air 2, Psionic
Gives all units in the stack a +1 defense bonus. This is stackable, but the caster must maintain it. While maintaining it, the caster cannot cast other spells. (Basically, it gives the caster a promotion that blocks casting, and allows the use of an ability that cancels the maintaining promotion. A unit with the Mental Barrier promotion recalculates the bonus at the beginning of the turn, based on how many units in the stack are maintaining the barrier. If a unit moves off the square it will keep the bonus, but any caster that cancels his concentration will cause all of your units to recalculate immediately.)
I definitely see the potential for this to be overpowered. Early game, you will only be able to get this with a Kineticist (Archer UU) of level 7 or higher. Getting a unit to level 7 and then tying up his casting on a purely defensive promotion seems like a decent balance, though getting a bunch of them would give you a lot of defense. Late game, your Crossbowman and Arquebuses will be able to get this promotion by level 4, and your Mages by level 7, so there is the potential to have a lot of units with Mind 2 / Air 2, making your cities nigh unassailable. Is this too strong?

EugeneStyles said:

Deflect Arrows
Requires Mind 1, Air 1, Psionic
Gives all units in the stack Deflect Arrows (+40% vs. Archers - same as Cover I). As far as persistance, it works the same as haste, in that you must have a caster capable of casting it in the stack for it to stick around.
This is meant to be somewhat balanced with Enchanted Blade. On the one hand, it gives a promotion equal to one regular promotion (same as Cover I, just as Enchanted Blade is the saem as Combat I). However, it gives to all units in the stack instead of just Melee, so it's a little stronger. I think this is balanced okay because it requires 2 spell spheres. It's meant to be somewhat offensive in nature, giving you a better chance to attack a city defended by high defense archers.

Click to expand...

It's okay for me, but perhaps, you could make it so it doesn't stack with Cover I, (Purely a balance thing, so a Champion with Cover I or II and Deflect arrow doesn't have an assured win against an Walled Longbowman with +25% fort)

Mental Barrier
Requires Mind 2, Air 2, Psionic
Gives all units in the stack a +1 defense bonus. This is stackable, but the caster must maintain it. While maintaining it, the caster cannot cast other spells. (Basically, it gives the caster a promotion that blocks casting, and allows the use of an ability that cancels the maintaining promotion. A unit with the Mental Barrier promotion recalculates the bonus at the beginning of the turn, based on how many units in the stack are maintaining the barrier. If a unit moves off the square it will keep the bonus, but any caster that cancels his concentration will cause all of your units to recalculate immediately.)
I definitely see the potential for this to be overpowered. Early game, you will only be able to get this with a Kineticist (Archer UU) of level 7 or higher. Getting a unit to level 7 and then tying up his casting on a purely defensive promotion seems like a decent balance, though getting a bunch of them would give you a lot of defense. Late game, your Crossbowman and Arquebuses will be able to get this promotion by level 4, and your Mages by level 7, so there is the potential to have a lot of units with Mind 2 / Air 2, making your cities nigh unassailable. Is this too strong?

Click to expand...

Indeed, it's strong. You could make it to cap when you reach certain defense, or that the spell only affect units with weak defense (Such as mages, or already weakened units).
Also, getting an archer with level 7 or higher early game, although hard for the human, is almost unachievable for the AI. So it basically would benefit much more the human, (Which can easily exploit that promo).

Another solution would be, instead of granting extra defense, could grant extra first strikes or another kind of defensive bonus (Like extra tile defense?).

And unrelated to this: Since this is a civ with a lot of knowledge of mind and psionic, perhaps, you could add an unique "Dominate" ability or some sort of that, which could replace mind III (Domination), in a more unique way...

Sjru said:

It's okay for me, but perhaps, you could make it so it doesn't stack with Cover I, (Purely a balance thing, so a Champion with Cover I or II and Deflect arrow doesn't have an assured win against an Walled Longbowman with +25% fort)

Click to expand...

If it didn't stack with Cover I, then I'm not sure there's any point to it at all. Not that that's possible anyway. Promotions don't have a way to specify that they "don't stack". So it would have to *give* the unit Cover I, which would interact weird with prereqs for Cover II if the unit only had the prereq temporarily. Or it would have to block Cover I, but that would also block Cover II because of the prereq... Aside from how possible it may be, I don't see the point. Even a unit with Cover II *and* Deflect Arrows has +120% vs. Archers, using up two promotions and having at least one unit with Mind 1/Air 1 on its tile. A Longbowman in a hill city with walls and +25% fort gets +125% defense without using any promotions (edit: and not counting city defenses), plus ranged attack (which makes attacking with anything that only moves 1 square a lot harder). Not to mention the defensive strikes if there are a bunch of them there.

Indeed, it's strong. You could make it to cap when you reach certain defense, or that the spell only affect units with weak defense (Such as mages, or already weakened units).
Also, getting an archer with level 7 or higher early game, although hard for the human, is almost unachievable for the AI. So it basically would benefit much more the human, (Which can easily exploit that promo).

Click to expand...

I was thinking about capping it, but I'm not sure I want to do that, nor am I sure that there's an easy way to do so. But it is certainly possible to give, say, a percent bonus to defense. The problem is, early game +20% defense is worth about .60 (or .80 for a Kineticist (which has only 3/4) or Axeman). But late game +20% defense is easily worth more than +1 defense... The more I think about it, I'm not that sure that the +1 defense is that overpowered, but I'll definitely have to keep an eye on it. Of course there's the way that +n and +n% combat synergize, but the Myu have a hard time finding room for combat promotions anyway.

And unrelated to this: Since this is a civ with a lot of knowledge of mind and psionic, perhaps, you could add an unique "Dominate" ability or some sort of that, which could replace mind III (Domination), in a more unique way...

Click to expand...

Eh... Domination is already really good. One of the strengths of this civ is the ability to get it pretty early and easily (any tier 4 unit can get it, and the hero starts with it and is available at Alteration... still not sure if that's too early for a Channeling 3 unit). I'm considering adding a promotion that any psionic unit with Mind 3 could take that would increase their domination limit, but I'm probably not going to replace Domination.

I've been planning to have Mind 3 / Whatever 3 spells, but frankly I don't know that it's necessary. Level 3 spells are powerful already - adding in another level 3 spell seems pointless. If a unit has 2 level 3 spell spheres, he's already got plenty of stuff to choose between. Another spell would most likely either never get used, or be so strong that he'd never use anything else. Especially since all the psionic spells use Mind, and Mind 3 is Domination. Domination is good.

Here is some feedback from my first Myu game:

Bugs

• There are issues with Master Zhao being both a Commander and capable of casting domination: Zhao can lead up to 3 units as Great Commander, additionally he can dominate 3 units using Mind 3, meaning he can lead up to 6 units if your units join his army before he uses domination. leading 3 units doesn't stop you from casting domination, but dominated units count against the command limit, meaning that once one of your commanded units dies or leaves the army you can't replace it until Zhao is leading less then 3 units. Which is kind of annoying if Zhao has dominated 3 high level heroes.
• This might not actually be a bug but I'll report it anyway: IIRC fireballs don't act as actual summons, they don't get promotions from their caster and they don't give him experience. I naturally assumed Shooting Stones were the same but apparently they are not. I would be fine with them getting Empower and Mobility promotions and it would make sense for the caster to gain some experience - in fact I like it better this way - but no matter how big it's teeth are, I have a hard time imagining why my Shooting Stones should be afraid of attacking attacking Achaeron xD.

Gameplay:

• The Myu have are very powerful early-midgame army. Your starting mana means that pretty much every Medium will start with Earth 1/Force 1/Mind 1 (free Mind 1 + 1 free promotion +2 xp) and even a single Soldier of Kilmorph makes a potent defender if he's fortified in a Wall of Stones city and backed up by the combination of ranged attacks and Shooting Stones.
• I can't say much about the Myu economy, I failed to found RoK (because I rushed KotE and Writing) and I didn't start anywhere near gems though the gold bonus from my pagan temples made up for that.
• Overall the Myu feel like a well designed builder civilization with a clear focus on arcane units. If you want to move the focus more towards melee units I recommend giving them more synergy with the special psyonic spells and a free Mind I so they don't have to use 2 promotions to get Shooting Stones. (Mind 1 and Earth 1 are mostly useless for melee units anyway if you got enough Mediums around.)

Balance:

• Master Zhao is currently by far the earliest Channeling III hero. Much earlier than Arcane Lore or Fanaticism. Moreover he starts with one of the most powerful tier 3 spells, the only mechanism in the game which can give you control over other civilizations' heroes. I recommend you move him to Sorcery which is still early but much later than Alteration.
• You should probably make the Psionic promotion block weapons, the way it is now it is balanced for your UU units but your dominated units can get Iron Weapons, psyonic spells and Crystal Blades (haven't checked that one, but should be possible).
• I think 13 ranged strength, uncapped, range 2 is a bit to much for a lvl 3 crystal guardian, especially since you will have a lot of them if your running RoK, perhaps you should reduce their base ranged strength a bit.

Suggestions:

• Especailly if you move Master Zhao to Sorcery you might want to add a few special commander promotions. Perhaps something which improves the ranged attack of his minions or a promotion which gives them a chance of learning tier 1 mind/earth/shadow spells each turn.
• You really should add tier 3 psyonic spells, it feels strange that your archmages don't get an bonus but your Mediums for tier 1 spells to have more effect than tier 3 spells. I'll try to come up with some ideas later.

Thanks, Torugu, this helps a lot!

Torugu said:

[*]Tleading 3 units doesn't stop you from casting domination, but dominated units count against the command limit,

Click to expand...

Argh - that is a problem, and I don't see an easy fix. Other than reducing his command limit to 0 so he can *only* command dominated units. Which would reduce a little of his flavor, but probably wouldn't affect him all that much in the long run... The other option is perhaps increasing his command limit by the number of units he has dominated... if that's possible.

IIRC fireballs don't act as actual summons, they don't get promotions from their caster and they don't give him experience. I naturally assumed Shooting Stones were the same but apparently they are not. I would be fine with them getting Empower and Mobility promotions and it would make sense for the caster to gain some experience - in fact I like it better this way - but no matter how big it's teeth are, I have a hard time imagining why my Shooting Stones should be afraid of attacking attacking Achaeron xD.

Click to expand...

I'm could've sworn that fireballs did get Empower and Mobility promotions. Not being immune to fear is definitely an oversight. Not sure either way about the XP... I'll look into it.

[*]The Myu have are very powerful early-midgame army. Your starting mana means that pretty much every Medium will start with Earth 1/Force 1/Mind 1 (free Mind 1 + 1 free promotion +2 xp) and even a single Soldier of Kilmorph makes a potent defender if he's fortified in a Wall of Stones city and backed up by the combination of ranged attacks and Shooting Stones.

Click to expand...

The intention is for this to be balanced by them having a hard time with assault. But also, I might increase the cost of the Arcane units. Of course, if you already think they have potent defenders, that doesn't bode well for the Mental Barrier spell (see above). But then again, it does require delving into a different mana type, and level 7 Archer UU or Mage UU who then has his casting tied up...

[*]Overall the Myu feel like a well designed builder civilization with a clear focus on arcane units. If you want to move the focus more towards melee units I recommend giving them more synergy with the special psyonic spells and a free Mind I so they don't have to use 2 promotions to get Shooting Stones. (Mind 1 and Earth 1 are mostly useless for melee units anyway if you got enough Mediums around.)

Click to expand...

Mind 1/Earth 1 is amazing for one Warrior per city, though. =)
I don't think I mind a focus on arcane units, because they don't have any attack strength, and Shooting Stones are a poor way to try and take an opponent city. So you have to delve into Melee or Disciples for attack strength, and even they aren't *great* at that (but ranged attacks and shooting stones help). Nevos will have a clear focus on Recon, and the evil leader (whose name has changed so many times I don't remember it) on Disciples.

[*]Master Zhao is currently by far the earliest Channeling III hero. Much earlier than Arcane Lore or Fanaticism. Moreover he starts with one of the most powerful tier 3 spells, the only mechanism in the game which can give you control over other civilizations' heroes. I recommend you move him to Sorcery which is still early but much later than Alteration.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I suspected that might be too much. I could make him not start with Mind 3, but he's still a very early Channeling III hero, and his low strength doesn't really balance him.

[*]You should probably make the Psionic promotion block weapons, the way it is now it is balanced for your UU units but your dominated units can get Iron Weapons, psyonic spells and Crystal Blades (haven't checked that one, but should be possible).

Click to expand...

It does block weapons (or it's certainly supposed to), but doesn't overwrite them. Which may be a problem. Honestly, dominated units shouldn't be getting psionic in the first place, so I should probably just figure out how to block that from happening.

[*]I think 13 ranged strength, uncapped, range 2 is a bit to much for a lvl 3 crystal guardian, especially since you will have a lot of them if your running RoK, perhaps you should reduce their base ranged strength a bit.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're probably right.

EugeneStyles said:

Argh - that is a problem, and I don't see an easy fix. Other than reducing his command limit to 0 so he can *only* command dominated units. Which would reduce a little of his flavor, but probably wouldn't affect him all that much in the long run... The other option is perhaps increasing his command limit by the number of units he has dominated... if that's possible.

Click to expand...

That would mean that every Dominated unit gives the ability to Dominate another unit...

I think the right way to solve the problem is to change Dominate. For instance, have Dominated units get a promotion that in turn give the master a +1 command limit promotion. Then have Dominate disallow casting if the caster has three or more of the master promotion and make Dominated units automatically break free if they get out of the masters command range.

EugeneStyles said:

I'm could've sworn that fireballs did get Empower and Mobility promotions. Not being immune to fear is definitely an oversight. Not sure either way about the XP... I'll look into it.

Click to expand...

Fireballs do get Mobility and Empower. Not sure about the xp...

odalrick said:

That would mean that every Dominated unit gives the ability to Dominate another unit...

I think the right way to solve the problem is to change Dominate. For instance, have Dominated units get a promotion that in turn give the master a +1 command limit promotion. Then have Dominate disallow casting if the caster has three or more of the master promotion and make Dominated units automatically break free if they get out of the masters command range.



Fireballs do get Mobility and Empower. Not sure about the xp...

Click to expand...

Not true at all actually, Odalrick. Dominate's prereq checks the number of forced minions (else you wouldn't be able to dominate when you have 3 minions ), so granting a command slot for each works perfectly fine.

Valkrionn said:

Not true at all actually, Odalrick. Dominate's prereq checks the number of forced minions (else you wouldn't be able to dominate when you have 3 minions ), so granting a command slot for each works perfectly fine.

Click to expand...

Are you sure? I thought it checked how many minions over the command limit there was and it it was three or more, disallowed casting.

Looks like it keeps the number of dominated units in a completely different variable that is accessed with getNumForcedMinions. So, Domination counts against your command limit, but doesn't check it.

Question: Are Dominated minions really supposed to get free promotions from your civ/leader traits? It seems like they should just be copied over with whatever promotions they already had, but it seems like the code goes out of its way to give them your free promotions. I guess the only way to block it is to check for specific promotions before converting (Psionic, Channeling, maybe Dwarven?), then if they didn't have those to begin with, remove them after converting. And then also give them a "Dominated" promotion that increases their commander's Command Limit by 1. Question is, how to remove that promo if they revert back to their original owner... or if it's even possible for them to go back (Dispel?).

EugeneStyles said:

Question is, how to remove that promo if they revert back to their original owner... or if it's even possible for them to go back (Dispel?).

Click to expand...

This is where an bIsMinion tag would be useful. Just have the promotion removed if the unit is not a minion at any time.

I have a workaround: create a spell that requires the promotion you want to remove, that the unit is not a minion and nothing else. Add a pyReq that removes the promotion and returns False.

odalrick said:

Are you sure? I thought it checked how many minions over the command limit there was and it it was three or more, disallowed casting.

Click to expand...

Very sure. Uses "if caster.getNumForcedMinions() >= 3:"; Only counts those that are forced into your command, via dominate, not those that enter willingly.

EugeneStyles said:

Looks like it keeps the number of dominated units in a completely different variable that is accessed with getNumForcedMinions. So, Domination counts against your command limit, but doesn't check it.

Question: Are Dominated minions really supposed to get free promotions from your civ/leader traits? It seems like they should just be copied over with whatever promotions they already had, but it seems like the code goes out of its way to give them your free promotions. I guess the only way to block it is to check for specific promotions before converting (Psionic, Channeling, maybe Dwarven?), then if they didn't have those to begin with, remove them after converting. And then also give them a "Dominated" promotion that increases their commander's Command Limit by 1. Question is, how to remove that promo if they revert back to their original owner... or if it's even possible for them to go back (Dispel?).

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how it goes out of it's way to do that? Just an aspect of creating the new unit before converting it.

Could always add code to dominate to loop through the promotions of the original unit and the new unit (Best to loop new unit promos, then a nested loop of old unit promos to compare), and remove any promos from the new unit that aren't found.

For your other question... pyPerTurn that checks for a previous owner (unit.getPreviousOwner())? Only set if dominated, and since that would be cleared when a new unit is made and it's converted back to the original owner, if it comes up as -1 there is no previous owner and the promo can be removed.