Old 'civver' with a quick query

twilson1972

Warlord
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
164
Hey all

I was a member here many years ago, for a little background, i played civ 1, 2, 3 and 4 to death (literally every scenario possible) and when it came to civ 5 i was excited

It was a little disappointing for me though (vanilla)- mainly down to what i felt was illogical AI that could not utilize 1 unit per tile in combat.

I stopped playing for a while, but have noticed theres 2 new expansions now, so im considering getting them and restarting my civ times (my wife probably hopes i don't start playing though!)

I was just curious, have the expansions improved the depth and the AI?

And also i have no longer got a desktop, just a laptop (I5 processor, hd4400 graphics, 6gb ram) can i even play civ 5 on anything aside from tiny maps?

Thanks all
 
No, the AI is actually worse in the two expansions than in vanilla Civ5. This is not because they haven't been improved, it's more because those expansions added features that focus on gameplay areas that the AI is naturally bad at. For example, G&K added the ability for naval units to take cities; this is fine and dandy, except the AI is terrible at building and handling naval units. Likewise, BNW's new Civs and new ideology system enables a lot of interesting, almost cheap, strategies involving Great Persons, but the AI is terrible at handling Great Persons. G&K's religions can be exploited to sustain an ICS despite the Civ5 team's efforts, but the beliefs needed to sustain that ICS do this via unwritten effects (for example, the Pagodas belief is vital, the unwritten effect being that you can build pagodas instantly in any city you found after you get your faith rolling), so the AI has cannot replicate these ICS strategies on their end. A lot the new civs' UU's focus on group positioning, which the AI cannot calculate properly (positioning of individual units it can handle, but not positioning an entire group to maximize the total bonuses).
 
Thanks, thats a disappointment to hear, i do miss my civ- but i struggled to get into 5 for the reasons stated, and i have played every mod and map going on civ 4

Thanks again
 
The AI is pretty bad, but if you crank it up to Immortal, all those units sooner or later are gonna cause you a LOT of grief, no matter how stupid they are. You really need to know your stuff to even compete on Immortal so give that a try before writing off the AI completely.

I do hope in the next incarnation they give a lot more time to a better AI so they don't have to resort to ridiculous cheating to make the AI a challenging opponent.
 
The problem with having to make the AI cheat to stay competitive is that it constrains your options and makes the game more boring. For example, unless you have an incredibly lucky start, ICS strategies only work because your method of acquiring yields (wider) is just as effective as the AI's method of acquiring yields (taller) so long as you have the necessary policies and beliefs. The instant the AI gets yield bonuses, strategies that were competitive alternatives before become obsolete; the more bonuses they get, the less of these strategies remain viable. The less options you have in terms of strategy, the more boring the game gets, as outcomes are decided on one-right-answer calculations instead of mazes of possibilities.
 
OP, you ask the wrong question. The expansions very much improve the depth and replay value of the game. Really, it is remarkable that the lame AI does not make things worse, but it is the same AI you faced in cIV, so its not like things have gotten worse.
 
The AI is actually much better at utilizing diplomacy options than in vanilla, and is somewhat better at combat (not up the level of a skilled human, certainly, but it no longer suicides its units into cities with lemming-like single mindedness). The strategy and depth of the game are greatly improved by religion, ideologies, and the World Congress.
 
That would depend on what beginning resource would around particularly if it was strategic. Chariots or swordsmen but definitely catapults for sure. Researching math is important because it provides catapults that easily make cities fall.
 
OP, you ask the wrong question. The expansions very much improve the depth and replay value of the game. Really, it is remarkable that the lame AI does not make things worse, but it is the same AI you faced in cIV, so its not like things have gotten worse.

As mentioned, it's not that the AI has gotten worse, it's that the expansions' additional content opens up new ways that it can fail.
It's also important to remember that this is not the same AI as in cIV, since Civ5's one-unit-per-tile makes AI unit handling a nightmare. If you don't believe me, have a look at the source code yourself: things becoming incredibly complicated when an AI unit is blocked by another AI unit that can move, but if it moves out of the way, it will have less moves left, possibly not being able to attack the common attack target, etc. etc.

[...] (not up the level of a skilled human, certainly, but it no longer suicides its units into cities with lemming-like single mindedness).
My AI vs. AI test games say otherwise: given the right circumstances, the unmodified AI will gleefully sacrifice its melee units into a city, only to withdraw when it realizes that it doesn't have any more melee units left with which to take the city.

The strategy and depth of the game are greatly improved by religion, ideologies, and the World Congress.
Strategies are improved, yes, but their depth is not. If depth is supposed represent how many viable strategies there are and the nuances between each one (as well as what strategies to start with and when, if ever, to switch to a different strategy mid-game), BNW and G&K have just as few viable strategies as vanilla Civ5 and transitioning between them is often just as unnecessary as it is in vanilla Civ5; this is especially true at higher difficulty levels.
Note that things change quite a bit with multiplayer, most importantly because everyone in the lobby has the same idea of what strategies are viable, so the nuances between individual versions of the same strategy become more pronounced. Since there is more room for creating different versions of the same strategy with the expansions, the game indeed becomes more deep.

Religion in Civ5 is just another way to get empire-wide bonuses, like policies, albeit through a different currency (faith instead of culture); the main distinguishing feature is that faith costs increase with game time rather than with empire size. The only depth it adds is "should I attempt to compete in this path for empire bonuses or not?", to which the answer is quite often determined within the first 5 turns of any game (starting civ + starting area).

Ideologies are simply just expanded versions of what were originally the three lategame policy branches; since cultural victories are not earned through policies, ideologies simply are a way to accelerate a culturally advanced player along any of the victory tracks. Much like with regular policies, you can often determine what ideology you want to go for and what tenets to snatch up first long before they are even unlocked.

Given how murky the diplomacy system is (there's little functional middle ground between "this civ hates me" and "this civ likes me") and how the AI does not actually attempt to bribe other AIs to pass resolutions, the World Congress just becomes a random bonus/penalty generator in singleplayer. Now if AIs actually attempted to pass resolutions they know other AIs would agree on and would vote against players if they know their vote for a player would never win, that would add depth to the diplomacy system (it's why I've implemented the latter into the next version of my mod).
 
Thanks all, it was the AI diplomacy and combat incompetence that bothered me at the time, i wasn't a 'hard core' civ iv player exactly (i was an emperor player who loved scenarios) and liked the idea of 1upt in civ v. I know the traffic jams used to drive me potty though.

I think ill just buy it and try for myself

Will i get away with playing BNW on my laptop though? laptop is fairly new (i5, ssd etc)

But integrated graphics (hd4400) i might struggle even on low detail?.
 
I run bnw on an older laptop. I have to use the strategic view and the direct x 9 version, but it does ok. Your laptop sounds like it might handle it better. Remember to switch off movement animations to save huge amounts of time between turns.
 
No, the AI is actually worse in the two expansions than in vanilla Civ5. This is not because they haven't been improved, it's more because those expansions added features that focus on gameplay areas that the AI is naturally bad at. For example, G&K added the ability for naval units to take cities; this is fine and dandy, except the AI is terrible at building and handling naval units. Likewise, BNW's new Civs and new ideology system enables a lot of interesting, almost cheap, strategies involving Great Persons, but the AI is terrible at handling Great Persons. G&K's religions can be exploited to sustain an ICS despite the Civ5 team's efforts, but the beliefs needed to sustain that ICS do this via unwritten effects (for example, the Pagodas belief is vital, the unwritten effect being that you can build pagodas instantly in any city you found after you get your faith rolling), so the AI has cannot replicate these ICS strategies on their end. A lot the new civs' UU's focus on group positioning, which the AI cannot calculate properly (positioning of individual units it can handle, but not positioning an entire group to maximize the total bonuses).

To be fair I got crushed by Isabella's navy in one game. I was forced to reload and nuke it. She had two carriers, a horde of destroyers, two-three battleships (heavily promoted frigates) and several other ships like ironclads etc. She added subs in the mix as well.

I've seen rampant ottoman navies too, and China absolutely swept me aside on a lrage islands map (I was England of all civs...) with a massive, mind-bogging ball of early ocean sailing vessels.
 
don't worry, my laptop is basically the same and it can run dx10&11 fine, just try not to get all the graphic options insanely high. I've played large maps on it before.

I feel the AI is ok in most respects, of course it could be better at war, but that's why they had bonuses for deity AI. I don't think the multiplayer situation is better than SP in terms of tactics, it's usually everyone techs to late info era and go to war, or go to war in timing pushes. There's virtually no other way to victory.
 
I recently tried using civilization the same way civilization was used in civilization 1 and I used the same old chariot and catapult rush. By the time I got to the enemy's cities, the chariots were easily wiped out and the catapults were taking forever to get there because they moved so slow. The worst part was that chariots couldn't go into the cities to occupy, i had to worry about waiting for the slow warrior to get to the enemy and occupy.
 
The worst part was that chariots couldn't go into the cities to occupy, i had to worry about waiting for the slow warrior to get to the enemy and occupy.

Isn't that the most annoying thing? And as much as people like to joke about the AI, it is smart enough to target your melee unit around a city if there is only 1. Nothing like having the city at +1 health and no melee units.
 
don't worry, my laptop is basically the same and it can run dx10&11 fine, just try not to get all the graphic options insanely high. I've played large maps on it before.

I feel the AI is ok in most respects, of course it could be better at war, but that's why they had bonuses for deity AI. I don't think the multiplayer situation is better than SP in terms of tactics, it's usually everyone techs to late info era and go to war, or go to war in timing pushes. There's virtually no other way to victory.

Brill, ill order the expansions in a few days then - does the AI still denounce for mysterious reasons etc? (i may be remembering this wrong its been a long time)
 
Isn't that the most annoying thing? And as much as people like to joke about the AI, it is smart enough to target your melee unit around a city if there is only 1. Nothing like having the city at +1 health and no melee units.

That's why I sometimes prefer using swordsmen instead because they could occupy but they don't move as fast as chariots do. Chariots are better at exploring large maps but thats what scouts are for.
 
Brill, ill order the expansions in a few days then - does the AI still denounce for mysterious reasons etc? (i may be remembering this wrong its been a long time)

They denouncements can be hypocritical or you can disagree with the logic, but I don't find them to be mysterious.

Shared borders, rate of expansion, wonder whoring, enemies with friends, war mongering (lots of hate for this one among humans), world congress proposals, ideologies, spreading religions, the reasons the AI can denounce are many and varied, but I wouldn't call them mysterious.
 
At 67 I may be the oldest Civ player here and, yes, I started playing the game the first day it was available way back in 1991. I was a beta tester on Civ 3 and its PTW expansion.

The AI has been a source of complaints since the first game. It will be a source of complaints in the last one. For me, Civ V is fun to play. The last expansion, along with the variety of the civs, to me opened up a lot more paths to victory and the possibility to use a mix of warmongering, Faith, Culture and economics to get to a win. The earlier games seemed to be a bit constrained in that you often had to do certain things by a certain number of turns or else. Civ V seems, at King and below, to offer you a chance to salvage a win if your initial strategy gets derailed.

Is it better than any of its predecessors? I know people who still feel that Civ 2 was the best.
 
At 67 I may be the oldest Civ player here and, yes, I started playing the game the first day it was available way back in 1991. I was a beta tester on Civ 3 and its PTW expansion.

The AI has been a source of complaints since the first game. It will be a source of complaints in the last one. For me, Civ V is fun to play. The last expansion, along with the variety of the civs, to me opened up a lot more paths to victory and the possibility to use a mix of warmongering, Faith, Culture and economics to get to a win. The earlier games seemed to be a bit constrained in that you often had to do certain things by a certain number of turns or else. Civ V seems, at King and below, to offer you a chance to salvage a win if your initial strategy gets derailed.

Is it better than any of its predecessors? I know people who still feel that Civ 2 was the best.

Oh i wasnt looking to bash the game, i was really excited when civ v came out and expected to love it.

It didnt work for me (vanilla) - maybe i still had my civ iv head on lol

I just wasnt keen on the diplomacy and the way the ai fought. Some things i did like (i remember fighting a proxy war through a city state)

As for old civ games, gosh if you knew how many hours i spent fighting through europe on marlas maps....its scary :) - and yes i lost a battleship to a spearman back in the day
 
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