Old 'civver' with a quick query

Oh i wasnt looking to bash the game, i was really excited when civ v came out and expected to love it.

It didnt work for me (vanilla) - maybe i still had my civ iv head on lol

I just wasnt keen on the diplomacy and the way the ai fought. Some things i did like (i remember fighting a proxy war through a city state)

As for old civ games, gosh if you knew how many hours i spent fighting through europe on marlas maps....its scary :) - and yes i lost a battleship to a spearman back in the day

I didn't think that you were bashing the game. Sorry if my comment came off that way. Your point about having one's Civ IV head on is well taken. I was away from Civ for a few years and, having some time to kill, I played Civ IV for a while then I decided to give BNW a try. Playing that the way I played Civ IV did not work out well. :lol:
 
I didn't think that you were bashing the game. Sorry if my comment came off that way. Your point about having one's Civ IV head on is well taken. I was away from Civ for a few years and, having some time to kill, I played Civ IV for a while then I decided to give BNW a try. Playing that the way I played Civ IV did not work out well. :lol:

Funnily enough im waiting till payday to order the game (just back from cuba so im broke !) so have played a little civ iv lately

I did win the two games of civ v vanilla that i played (prince and king difficulty) but i had no idea what i was doing to be honest, i just abused englands navy and longbows. The world felt a lot smaller though?.

As to BNW, is it true that theres no point having more than 4 or 5 cities?.
 
As to BNW, is it true that theres no point having more than 4 or 5 cities?.

Totally depends on the strategy. If you want to optimize a SV then perhaps not, but going all out city-sprawling rampage is also a viable strat if you go for a Sacred Sites piety/liberty CV.

Basically: why would there be "no point" in going for more (or less for that matter) cities? Just as in every other game: you do what you like the most. If you want to play a game with 7 cities, then go ahead. There are strats that are viable no matter your city output.
 
As to BNW, is it true that theres no point having more than 4 or 5 cities?.

The "Happy Cap" is still with us, just in a different form. Policies come more slowly with each new city and you also have the requirements for National College and Oxford University. Those last two aren't hard to get around. Maintaining reasonable happiness requires either trading for luxes you don't have or playing as Indonesia, or both, if you want to go very wide. Going wide in BNW can, in my opinion, be done more easily than in Vanilla or G&K. For me, going wide usually comes from puppeted or annexed cities garnered through warmongering. Of late I see some warmongering as a nearly essential component of any Victory Condition. Though the hits for exterminating another civ preclude that most times you can take enough cities to effectively nerf a runaway rival.
 
OP, you ask the wrong question. The expansions very much improve the depth and replay value of the game. Really, it is remarkable that the lame AI does not make things worse, but it is the same AI you faced in cIV, so its not like things have gotten worse.

That isn't really the case (that it's not got worse). Civ V is a more complex, deeper game mechanically than Civ IV - that makes it more enjoyable in terms of playing against yourself (i.e. planning and varying strategies), but it does mean the game is inherently less AI-friendly and as a result less engaging for those who play Civ games mainly for the challenge of competing against AI players. AI decision-making that made sense in Civ IV often makes less in Civ V, and is sometimes counter to the AI's own interests; the diplomacy system is a case in point.

As for the 1UPT system, the best way Civ V found to deal with this was to reduce the emphasis on war and improve peaceful play in the expansions. This helps the AI compete if the player plays along with it and engages in only limited warfare, as it's better at achieving non-domination victory conditions than in past Civ games (my own preferred playstyle, and hence my overall preference for Civ V), but if the player wants to win through warfare the AI is as poor as ever.
 
I think we are mostly in agreement. Did you play SMAC? I think that game did better with the AI than III or IV (and maybe even V and BE). Relatively simple game mechanics were tied tightly to AI behavior and choices, resulting in a game the AI could play well. The game mechanics simultaneously reinforced the story line and archetype AI personas, so nothing felt “simple”.

Civ V is a more complex, deeper game mechanically than Civ IV ... but it does mean the game is inherently less AI-friendly ... it's better at achieving non-domination victory conditions than in past Civ games

I agree with these three points.

AI decision-making that made sense in Civ IV often makes less in Civ V, and is sometimes counter to the AI's own interests; the diplomacy system is a case in point.

Can you give a more specific example? I think I can agree that the V diplomacy system is too complicated for the AI, but is there really an analog in IV? Aside from diplomacy, where else does the IV decision-making that makes sense in IV but not in V? I guess SP picks are sub-optimal, but that does not really seem to be holding the AI back.

...less engaging for those who play Civ games mainly for the challenge of competing against AI players ... if the player wants to win through warfare the AI is as poor as ever

Right, hence my assertion that nothing has gotten worse. SOD and the game being simpler masked the fact that the civ III/IV AI was not very good at old school board-style war games. The civ AI has only every been challenging because of the handicapping.

I think it is very much a feature that the AI's different flavor bias results is different behaviors. The alternative with III and IV is that the AIs are all the same personality, so I should think that has much less replay value in for everyone. I enjoyed III and IV, but it was only because of the CF GotM, more so than anything inherit to the design of III or IV.

Obviously, I am not understanding what people find so appealing about IV, so I appreciate your attempts to explain!
 
I think we are mostly in agreement. Did you play SMAC? I think that game did better with the AI than III or IV (and maybe even V and BE). Relatively simple game mechanics were tied tightly to AI behavior and choices, resulting in a game the AI could play well. The game mechanics simultaneously reinforced the story line and archetype AI personas, so nothing felt “simple”.



I agree with these three points.



Can you give a more specific example? I think I can agree that the V diplomacy system is too complicated for the AI, but is there really an analog in IV? Aside from diplomacy, where else does the IV decision-making that makes sense in IV but not in V? I guess SP picks are sub-optimal, but that does not really seem to be holding the AI back.



Right, hence my assertion that nothing has gotten worse. SOD and the game being simpler masked the fact that the civ III/IV AI was not very good at old school board-style war games. The civ AI has only every been challenging because of the handicapping.

I think it is very much a feature that the AI's different flavor bias results is different behaviors. The alternative with III and IV is that the AIs are all the same personality, so I should think that has much less replay value in for everyone. I enjoyed III and IV, but it was only because of the CF GotM, so anything inherit to the design of III or IV.

Obviously, I am not understanding what people find so appealing about IV, so I appreciate your attempts to explain!


Yes i played SMAC, though it was a long time ago, i played alien x fire too. And the CTP games :) the army function was actually ok in CTP

As for diplomacy on Civ 4, well you can make friends through trades, not dealing with their enemy, shared religion and governments... and that relates to the real world in some ways.

I agree that the AI has never been particularly skillful and 1upt just highlights that more. The amount of times ive seen huge enemy stacks heading off on civ iv to recapture a border town as i head to their capital is surprising :)

I booted up my steam last night, it appears i have G&K and the DLC, trying a europe map as England to decide if i want BNW.

Early days, but it looks pretty, seems slow between turns for the early game stages, and while i think 1UPT is good for opening up tactics, the map does get a little clogged up even fairly early on.
 
As for diplomacy on Civ 4, well you can make friends through trades, not dealing with their enemy, shared religion and governments.

Government types is a notable absence, but ideologies really makes up for that IMHO. Of course, that is late game.

The friendship bonuses for trades and mutual friend/enemy relations seem just as strong to me with V as with IV. Shared religion is a buff, but is only available if one civ did not found -- so that is pretty limited.
 
Government types is a notable absence, but ideologies really makes up for that IMHO. Of course, that is late game.

The friendship bonuses for trades and mutual friend/enemy relations seem just as strong to me with V as with IV. Shared religion is a buff, but is only available if one civ did not found -- so that is pretty limited.

Im still on my first game for 3 or so years so effectively its like my first game as i haven't got a clue what im doing.

(england, europe map- king difficulty)

so far its a love fest, i have a pathetic armed forces (longbows in each city, 1 musket and 4 ships of the line) and no-one has threatened me, gone from friendly or shown any aggression

this is different to 5 years ago when everyone seemed psycho?
 
Im still on my first game for 3 or so years so effectively its like my first game as i haven't got a clue what im doing.

(england, europe map- king difficulty)

so far its a love fest, i have a pathetic armed forces (longbows in each city, 1 musket and 4 ships of the line) and no-one has threatened me, gone from friendly or shown any aggression

this is different to 5 years ago when everyone seemed psycho?

You might have just been (un)lucky with flavor/personality rolls and starting civs. Basically, civs need a high enough offense flavor (to pursue conquest victory) as well as high enough rolls on war approach and boldness to be warlike; they then need to also have high enough rolls on other flavors so that they build up an empire before they go to war instead of trying to take a city-state as their second city (this is how Mongolia AI usually fails). In the unmodded game, all leader flavors get a random number added to them within +/-2 range flat distribution, but there is such a huge difference between 4 offense flavor and 2 offense flavor that whether or not a civ will tend to go to war, even if their UU is incredible, can depend solely on the outcomes of the flavor rolls at the start of the game.
 
Im still on my first game for 3 or so years so effectively its like my first game as i haven't got a clue what im doing.

(england, europe map- king difficulty)

so far its a love fest, i have a pathetic armed forces (longbows in each city, 1 musket and 4 ships of the line) and no-one has threatened me, gone from friendly or shown any aggression

this is different to 5 years ago when everyone seemed psycho?

I've got Shaka and Gengis Khan racing each other for a CV in a game. Sometimes the AI does some really weird stuff, but mostly they will be pretty predictable.

As the previous poster said though: that's probably just unlucky with the flavor rolls.
 
For OP, here is the awesome flavor table Delnar refers to: http://civdata.com/

this is different to 5 years ago when everyone seemed psycho?

Well, I would characterize the AIs as less erratic than they used to be, and maybe some of that is patches. But maybe not? Ideologies are a huge factor, so that is a big difference between GnK and BNW, and it eliminates the main opportunity for an unprovoked late-game betrayal from an AI that has been friendly for the whole game.

But I also play much differently now than I did early on, so I am not sure the developers deserve all the credit. Early on, I assumed that all-green modifiers and no-red ones would keep me from a DoW. That was a mistake! I have not tried that play style in quite a long time.

i have a pathetic armed forces (longbows in each city, 1 musket and 4 ships of the line

If you are before turn 150 or so, that is plenty to be aggressively taking cities! At turn 200 it is more than enough to be holding your own against one AI (that is, at war, and not losing units). The AI is still terribly optimistic regarding war outcome.

...but there is such a huge difference between 4 offense flavor and 2 offense flavor that whether or not a civ will tend to go to war, even if their UU is incredible, can depend solely on the outcomes of the flavor rolls at the start of the game.

How did you figure out that between 4 and 2 is the sweet spot for offense flavor?
 
You will like the game much more than vanilla. I couldn't say what it was exactly, but I didn't like it at release, and I do now. Only thing they didn't fix in my opinion is diplomacy, they still act like wanabee chess players instead of civilization rulers with personality.
 
How did you figure out that between 4 and 2 is the sweet spot for offense flavor?

It's not, or at least I don't think it is. I just gave 4 and 2 as examples because they're the values that fall into the +/-2 range the best (4+0 vs 4-2, 2+0 vs 2+2, 3+1 vs 3-1) that also end up producing a +100% difference. In any case where a value is multiplied by one of the AI's flavor values, a value of 4 will produce a product (usually a production priority) twice as large as a value of 2, even though these values are within the +/-2 range.
It's also why certain leaders tend to be more unpredictable in certain areas while they are much more predictable in others: usually those leaders have low (less than 5) starting flavors corresponding to the type of unpredictable behavior, so the +/-2 flavor roll at the start of the game has a much greater range of effects (eg. with default flavor 4, a +2 roll will end up producing priority values three times those that would be produced on a -2 roll).

If you view this as a problem, I imagine there are quite a few ways to solve it. For example, you could make flavor rolls have a binomial distribution instead of a flat one, which would mean that even with a +/-2 range, values near the starting flavor values will be more heavily favored: this would make personalities more consistent (since most flavor rolls won't end up changing values as much), while still allowing for some degree of unpredictability (not all flavor rolls will end up near the default values). You could also make flavor a lot more granular to give you more control over randomization parameters and to differentiate, say, a flavor that is nominally 2.2 from one that is nominally 2.6.
Finally, you could change the randomization itself to work via relative values: the randomization would be something like +/-33.33% (roughly 1/3) instead of +/-2, which would mean that while a starting flavor of 6 would receive +/-2, a starting flavor of 4 would receive +/-1.33. The end result would be that the ratio of the highest possible roll result to the lowest possible roll result would be almost constant across the entire flavor range (eg. +/-33.33% would make that ratio 2, so the highest possible roll divided by the lowest possible roll would always be 2, no matter the starting value).
 
I am very skeptical that, for example, a flavor bias of 6 generally means three times as much of an effect as a 2!

Some things people have found explicit code for, e.g., nuking or not. That kind game mechanic, which uses RNG against the run-time flavor value, might or might not be used elsewhere. With this example, an AI with a nuke value of 6 is much, much more likely to nuke than an AI with a nuke value of 2. And this is pretty much the most transparent example of flavor values impacting the game. Everything else is pretty opaque.

My point is that, for all anyone knows, a run-time Boldness value of 6 might result in dramatically different game behavior from a Boldness value of 5.

High values in certain categories (say, Expansion) are easy to pair with in-game behavior patterns. But with most numbers being in the middling range and variable by +/- 2 the whole system is overly complicated and ultimately pointless. Very disappointing really.
 
I am very skeptical that, for example, a flavor bias of 6 generally means three times as much of an effect as a 2!
You can have a look at Civ5's source code yourself if you don't believe me: it's accessible via the Civ5 SDK, though I do warn you that a lot of the AI-related bits are written rather obtusely, to put it lightly.
Almost every time a flavor value or a boldness value is called, it is either straight-up multiplied by a constant or added to other flavor values before being multiplied by a constant. It's simply a matter a mathematics that a flavor bias of 6 will produce numbers that are three times larger than the numbers a flavor bias of 2 would produce. For example, the Early Expansion economic strategy only fires if, among other things, the AI's city count is less than (baseline city count)*(expansion flavor)/(growth flavor)*(tile count)/(default map size); with starting expansion and growth biases of 5, that ratio can range from 2.33 (7/3) to 0.43 (3/7), which is the difference between 18 desired early cities and 3 desired early cities with the default baseline of 8 cities. When settling a new city, the potential yields received always get multiplied by the civ's flavor value for that yield, so one potential gold from a newly settled city is counted as six gold with a gold flavor bias of 6, but a gold flavor bias of 2 would make it count as two gold.

Some things people have found explicit code for, e.g., nuking or not. That kind game mechanic, which uses RNG against the run-time flavor value, might or might not be used elsewhere. With this example, an AI with a nuke value of 6 is much, much more likely to nuke than an AI with a nuke value of 2. And this is pretty much the most transparent example of flavor values impacting the game. Everything else is pretty opaque.
It's not opaque at all, it oftentimes is just really hard to find in the jumbled mess of AI routines that is the Civ5 source code.
It just so happens that I stumbled upon the algorithm for when the AI launches nukes a few months back while I was tweaking nuclear missile target scoring for my mod: each turn that the AI is losing any wars and has a nuke, it will roll two random numbers between 0 and 9 inclusive, and if both numbers are less than its use nuke flavor, it launches a nuke. The exact probabilities are 100%, 81%, 64%, 49%, 36%, 25%, 16%, 9%, 4%, 1%, and 0% for flavor values of 10+, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and 0. This means that if an AI has starting use nuke flavor of 5, their actual value could range from 7 (49% chance to use nuke each turn) to 3 (9% chance to use nuke each turn), so yeah, a range of +/-2 can be huge.

My point is that, for all anyone knows, a run-time Boldness value of 6 might result in dramatically different game behavior from a Boldness value of 5.
Boldness is a weird one, as it's baked into all sorts of decisions. It's also quite easy to find all locations it's used, you just need to find all references to the CvDiplomacyAI::GetBoldness() function. All examples of where it's used in the unmodded game: multiplied by 10 as the base chance of an AI giving into a demand, as the base flavor for scoring of the Conquest grand strategy (which can control quite a lot, given how often the active grand strategy is checked for in AI routines ranging from what free GP to select to whether or not a World Congress proposition is beneficial), as the extra amount of military units the AI wants in its empire if it's running the Conquest grand strategy, whether the AI wants to settle near enemy cities (boldness greater than 7 increases the fertility score of tiles that are at most 5 tiles away from another major's city by 50%, boldness less than 4 decreases the fertility score of tiles that are at most 5 tiles away by up to 75%).
 
My apologies Delnar for not remembering that it was you who surfaced these game mechanics! I am so grateful that you are able to parse so much of the code!

The exact probabilities are 100%, 81%, 64%, 49%, 36%, 25%, 16%, 9%, 4%, 1%, and 0% for flavor values of 10+, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and 0.

This is a good example of the counter point I was (poorly) trying to express. A 6 is 36% while a 2 is 4%, so a factor of 9:1, not 3:1 as your earlier statement implied. As you explain, most uses of the bias values will be as part of simple formula.

But you did not mean to imply what I thought you were asserting, so please accept my regrets about that.
 
But you did not mean to imply what I thought you were asserting, so please accept my regrets about that.

Don't worry, no offense taken. My apologies if I may seem gruff or authoritative.

This is a good example of the counter point I was (poorly) trying to express. A 6 is 36% while a 2 is 4%, so a factor of 9:1, not 3:1 as your earlier statement implied. As you explain, most uses of the bias values will be as part of simple formula.
The use nuke roll is the only one I can think of where the outcome is determined by probabilities based on the same flavor multiplied with each other (instead of with a gameplay stat or a probability based on another flavor). There may be one somewhere in the promotions selection algorithm, I honestly can't remember (that section is quite huge), and I can't check right now because Visual Studio is misbehaving again.
Otherwise though, use nuke really is the exception, usually the observed difference between the highest and lowest possible flavors after randomization is small enough at higher flavor biases to not make a huge difference. As a result, leaders with certain high starting flavors will usually behave as if they had those high starting flavors, while leaders with certain low starting flavors may or may not behave as if they had those low starting flavors (because the +/-2 range has a much larger effect at lower values).

Approach biases (eg. war approach bias) and personality values (eg. boldness, victory competitiveness) are a different matter though, since unlike flavors, they aren't always necessarily multiplied by something (eg. the fact that the desired amount of military units is increased by the leader's boldness if the leader is following the Conquest grand strategy).
 
I won the europe map quite comfortably- as always the russians where huge but where strangely backwards, napoleon did start a war, but seemed to think having his melee units in the water and in range of my longbows is a clever tactic!

Ive started a second game, still on king (its only my second game after all)- archipelago, comments so far-

1) love fest again lol

2) i thought i had a crappy start (8 desert hills, and my only resources were sea based) but i beelined currency and god is petra powerful i have absurd production there.

3) Why oh why is iron so rare? ive explored over half the map and seen 2 sources of iron (both owned by another player)
 
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