The Oil resource - civ4 and peak oil ?

@kochman.standard of living has definately decreaced,probably began in the 90s for me when shops were allowed to open sundays,that little bastion of a day off was gone forever.Position im in now is a lot worse than 10/15 years ago,prices go up,wages stay the same.I think you will be hard pushed to find anyone in the UK now who can honestly say there standard of living has improved(other than my best buddys the hedgefund managers and investment bankers)

I just asked my Mom the Q and she said uniquivicably the 1950s was the time she had the best standard of living,Im not 100% but I believe that was a GA in the USA too?In her opinion everything started to go wrong economically when Thatcher(her mentor was Hayek) got into power-free market capitalism comes in,public services get privatised,miners strikes-blahblah(read the history)I think at this point the true selfishness of society showed its true colours and things have been worse since.

On the suface labour saving devices sound great,but the reality is that people now have to work longer hours,theres more stress,less jobs etc,etc.I could go through the entire list of your replys to nichol bolas and back up everyone with the source bieng my mom.It wouldnt suprise me if you asked people you know over 60 in the USA when they thought there standard of living was best,and I bet you its pre Reagonomics.

FlyingSwan said:

@kochman.standard of living has definately decreaced,probably began in the 90s for me when shops were allowed to open sundays,that little bastion of a day off was gone forever.Position im in now is a lot worse than 10/15 years ago,prices go up,wages stay the same.I think you will be hard pushed to find anyone in the UK now who can honestly say there standard of living has improved(other than my best buddys the hedgefund managers and investment bankers)

I just asked my Mom the Q and she said uniquivicably the 1950s was the time she had the best standard of living,Im not 100% but I believe that was a GA in the USA too?In her opinion everything started to go wrong economically when Thatcher(her mentor was Hayek) got into power-free market capitalism comes in,public services get privatised,miners strikes-blahblah(read the history)I think at this point the true selfishness of society showed its true colours and things have been worse since.

On the suface labour saving devices sound great,but the reality is that people now have to work longer hours,theres more stress,less jobs etc,etc.I could go through the entire list of your replys to nichol bolas and back up everyone with the source bieng my mom.It wouldnt suprise me if you asked people you know over 60 in the USA when they thought there standard of living was best,and I bet you its pre Reagonomics.

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hello swan, glad to finally see someone here with an opinion, not just students of economics, who yet have to get their face slapped on the ground....

it is exactly the same where i live...(central europe)
the labour is less and less enforced, more work days, less days off, longer hours and less money.
everything gets privatized or sold to foreigners, medical care gets cut down.....
industries crash due to foreign imports, pensions get lowerd and elayed, and unemployment skyrockets, especially among young and old people,,, thus even worsening the wotrk conditions

it really seems that 50s - 80s where the golden ages of good balance between capitalism and socialism, but now, with free market and globalization, it's just a downward spiral for common person

I mean you can even see it by the small things, that gocernments are corrupt by capitalists as well: niether capitalists or politicians know true labour, so they can't really imagine what is it like, when you are forced to work sundays too...

really it's just a new form of slavery and caste system all over.....

or serfdom more accurately.Marxists coined the term wage slavery which I think is just as applicable now as it was in the 1800s.A quote(Maybe overused but i like it)?"no one is more enslaved than those who believe they are free"?goeth,(I think thats right.)

Economists and goverments have a stange way of making out that things are better for common people through GDP and such like,to me thats just crazy,ask people and youll find the answers the goverment doesnt want to talk about.

FlyingSwan said:

@kochman.standard of living has definately decreaced,probably began in the 90s for me when shops were allowed to open sundays,that little bastion of a day off was gone forever.Position im in now is a lot worse than 10/15 years ago,prices go up,wages stay the same.I think you will be hard pushed to find anyone in the UK now who can honestly say there standard of living has improved(other than my best buddys the hedgefund managers and investment bankers)

I just asked my Mom the Q and she said uniquivicably the 1950s was the time she had the best standard of living,Im not 100% but I believe that was a GA in the USA too?In her opinion everything started to go wrong economically when Thatcher(her mentor was Hayek) got into power-free market capitalism comes in,public services get privatised,miners strikes-blahblah(read the history)I think at this point the true selfishness of society showed its true colours and things have been worse since.

On the suface labour saving devices sound great,but the reality is that people now have to work longer hours,theres more stress,less jobs etc,etc.I could go through the entire list of your replys to nichol bolas and back up everyone with the source bieng my mom.It wouldnt suprise me if you asked people you know over 60 in the USA when they thought there standard of living was best,and I bet you its pre Reagonomics.

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You have offered no facts, just anecdotes. You are also looking at a short time period, instead of the lifespan of capitalism. By the way, the UK hasn't been capitalist for quite some time, nationalizing all sorts of industries during and after WW2...

Markets are cyclical, there will be retractions. Don't forget that before this Golden Age of the 50s, as you put it, there was the Great Depression in the 30s.

It seems like you are applying a rather short sighted approach.

The same goes for you Nicol, your short life span is not really long enough to serve as a reliable measuring stick...
Let's consider, I believe you are in either Czeck, Slovak, or Hungary... Can't remember.
50 years ago you guys were under the yoke of communism. How did that go? How many of the older generation who lived through that time period of bare supermarkets and pittances for wages would agree that the standard of living has actually decreased?

Also, those foreign imports you refer to, they lowered prices through competition. Or would you suggest running a protective "Mercantilism" type of economy?

Why are you guys so upset about working Sundays? I never understood this when I worked in Germany, particularly for those who didn't have a religious reason for it (a topic that I am not trying to get into... just saying).
So, if you work Sunday... do you get no other day off? Get another job if they want you to work Sundays and you don't want to. It's not hard.

Personally, I like having the ability to buy things 7 days a week if I need them, instead of having to plan everything out before the weekend. That was the worst part of my experience in Germany. I worked Mon-Fri... the stores closed shortly after I got off work. On Saturday, they were open until 12pm or 1pm... closed all day Sunday. I had to run around like a chicken with my head cut off during the work week, when I just wanted to go home and relax after a long day, just to have fresh food, etc for the weekend.

FlyingSwan said:

or serfdom more accurately.Marxists coined the term wage slavery which I think is just as applicable now as it was in the 1800s.A quote(Maybe overused but i like it)?"no one is more enslaved than those who believe they are free"?goeth,(I think thats right.)

Economists and goverments have a stange way of making out that things are better for common people through GDP and such like,to me thats just crazy,ask people and youll find the answers the goverment doesnt want to talk about.

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So, serious question?
Do you think Marx's ideas were good?

I think they have led to way more oppression and suffering than any other single economic philosopher (if that is how we can categorize him).

yes i do.unfortunatealy im drunk,its fri so il reply tomomorow

i believe in 1 pair of shoes and one bed
If your not in one your in the other

The same goes for you Nicol, your short life span is not really long enough to serve as a reliable measuring stick...
Let's consider, I believe you are in either Czeck, Slovak, or Hungary... Can't remember.
50 years ago you guys were under the yoke of communism. How did that go? How many of the older generation who lived through that time period of bare supermarkets and pittances for wages would agree that the standard of living has actually decreased?

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yes, I am czech and many consider us one of the countries, that handled the transition quite well.
so it's funny if I tell you, that quite a lot of people miss old times, when they realistickally had more freedom: assured job and pensions, free education and medicine, cheap housing and decent and good working conditions, shorter hours, more free time.
most young people have opinions just as you, but lately are strating to revolt as well: due to more expansive education, medicine, and no pensions for people who are now less then 30... and more and more harsh reforms + the run away unemployment among young and old

Also, those foreign imports you refer to, they lowered prices through competition. Or would you suggest running a protective "Mercantilism" type of economy?

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no, mercantilism is a nonsense (and don't forget that civ4 interpretation of mercantilism isnť remotely correct.
what you really mean is autarky - isolation from trade, and that is a nonsense as well.
good is midway: importing goods and services, that can't be effectively produced home.
but on the other hand. home industries must be protected, to plan long term and protect jobs and development of the country. (I know why chicago school economists denounce this, so you can spare me the lecture), unless you got domething new
Look at south Korea now, and yet in 1950s they did exactly that?: protected their baby industries

because governemts of nations should serve citizens, not globalized corporations.

Why are you guys so upset about working Sundays? I never understood this when I worked in Germany, particularly for those who didn't have a religious reason for it (a topic that I am not trying to get into... just saying).
So, if you work Sunday... do you get no other day off? Get another job if they want you to work Sundays and you don't want to. It's not hard.

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No. basically the working law is a joke. on many postitions, the law is just broken every day. if you don't like it, you are told there are hundreds behind the door waiting for this job and slavery working conditions (and it is correct)
people like you, rich, and politicians just have no idea how life is for common people today

Do you think Marx's ideas were good?

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some yes, some not

the idea about owners of capital abusing work of expendable "workers" is extremely true, and you can see my example above.
also, these are not anecdotes, but real stuff that is happening

the analysis about transitions of power os also correct.
capitalist elite manages quite well so far, because they convinced people like you, who -think- they are on the successful side, to side with them.
but, and if, the unemployment and poverty and terrible suffering of low and middle classes continiues to get worse, violence and violent revolution will happen just as it always does.

whether it should be started artificially? doesn't really matter. either the distribution of wealth and dignity changes, or it will happen

whether the final stage is communism
unlikely, this would need more scientific or moral development, and drastically reduced population, which would also had to be genetically preselected for higher intelligence and education.

his economic theory of value of labour and value of goods
is generally considered incorrect since it lacks mathematical background and more importantly the price for renewing capital, and ways to motivate for effective production

kochman said:

The biggest recommendation I can give:
Look back through the length of your life... Has the standard of living increased? Or decreased?

For me, it has definitely been an increase.

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My evidence is purely anecdotal,was just answering your Q.Of course you can argue working conditions have improved and therefore standard of living.(just watch this short video-monty python-the four yorkshiremen original sketch on you tube).

The UK is uber capitalist from 1979 and thatcher,sure we have the National Health Service but believe me the current tory goverment is trying its hardest to dismantle it.The reason working sundays is a big deal is because I think its had a detrimental affect on communitys and family life,now thats hard to quantify with some statistic,and its anecdotal-doesnt make the statement wrong though.

kochman said:

So, serious question?
Do you think Marx's ideas were good?

Click to expand...

FlyingSwan said:

yes i do.unfortunatealy im drunk,its fri so il reply tomomorow

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Well, that tells me all I need to know. Glad you let that out. I can't continue this debate, sorry... anyone who is a backer of marxist ideas, I am just on a completely different level than. No point in continuing.

Luckily, marxist ideas lost out, too bad so many people had to suffer so terribly from it.

Well, that tells me all I need to know. Glad you let that out. I can't continue this debate, sorry... anyone who is a backer of marxist ideas, I am just on a completely different level than. No point in continuing.

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yes, you are on a different level, you are a person of no opinion.
you just studied all the economics textbooks without any attempt at your own thinking.
Basically all you do is repeat text from textbooks, without having any idea how real life is fo a common person.
you also consider these liberal ideas 100% correct and untouchable.
this tells a lot.
I have seen, and see many as you, amazed by the logic of liberal ecnomics to a point of fanatism.
your nothing new.

Nicol.Bolas said:

yes, you are on a different level, you are a person of no opinion.
you just studied all the economics textbooks without any attempt at your own thinking.
Basically all you do is repeat text from textbooks, without having any idea how real life is fo a common person.
you also consider these liberal ideas 100% correct and untouchable.
this tells a lot.
I have seen, and see many as you, amazed by the logic of liberal ecnomics to a point of fanatism.
your nothing new.

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You seem to know a lot about me for someone who knows nothing about me.

I find it ironic that you claim I am repeating from textbooks, when I am speaking clearly of facts, while you have brought nothing to the table but theory (even when asked for facts)... theory found in textbooks because they have failed in real world applications...

Anyhow, have fun propping up failed theory, I am done discussing with you also, since you know me so well, there is nothing left to discuss, is there?

there is nothing left to discuss, is there?

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yeah, not really. time will tell.
and believe it or not, since I know all the economics textbook theories you so strictly follow, I wish they were correct, and the course toward a malthusian trap or violent revolution, or drastic reduction of quality of life in the west can still be averted.

kochman said:

You seem to know a lot about me for someone who knows nothing about me.

I find it ironic that you claim I am repeating from textbooks, when I am speaking clearly of facts, while you have brought nothing to the table but theory (even when asked for facts)... theory found in textbooks because they have failed in real world applications...

Anyhow, have fun propping up failed theory, I am done discussing with you also, since you know me so well, there is nothing left to discuss, is there?

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You can't use facts on his side of this argument. There aren't any that support it so using them would be counter-productive while trying to prop up nonsense. Marxist crap LIVES off theory and persuasion and ignores facts at all freaking costs, much like most people trying to support fundamentally wrong/idiotic statements.

Also, while Kochman may or may not be quoting textbooks, they are vastly superior to documentaries, anecdotal evidence with flagrant bias, biased media sources (and 100% of media sources are biased), etc because said textbooks provide data that is 1) can be reproduced 2) is tested and proven 3) originated from people who put dedicated effort into studying their respective fields.

An econ textbook doesn't just prove these socialist people wrong, it embarrasses them. The reason Nicol and everyone else on this thread arguing that socialism somehow leads to better quality of life while the firms actively HARM it avoid macro and micro economic teachings is because it would show just how painfully, flagrantly wrong they are about how business works.

The most annoying thing I see about arguments against free market/capitalism is for people to pick governments that have been ACTIVELY TRENDING AWAY FROM FREE MARKET...*AND* GETTING WORSE WHILE DOING SO...and using THOSE as an argument against free market . Stop doing that. It makes you look ignorant and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

As for the relevance to the OP, the market can and absolutely would adjust to an oil crisis. The effects would be reasonably devastating, but military would still field advanced equipment, alternative lubricants would be used, and alternative fuels (possibly using current engines with minor/no retrofitting) would come into play albeit at higher costs. The resulting depression would suck pretty badly, but the overblown supposed consequences in the OP speak volumes to the ignorance of the world...

And there *will* be a drop in quality of life in the west, but it won't be the fault of capitalism or free market, but rather our insistence on living beyond our means and becoming increasingly socialist!

Of course an economic text book can prove a theory,but thats only half the story.Documentaries and anecdotal evidence show us the what happens to people when that theory is put into practice.For example water privatization in the UK,in theory it might sound great,on paper profits up blah,blah.But you ask anyone in UK what they think of private water companys or if the service has improved and your likley to get a tirade of expletives.

I mean in 100 years time where do you see humanity if we continue down this socio economic course?Is,nt there a native american saying that goes something like

"only when the last tree is cut down,the last river poisoned and the last animal killed will the white man realise you cant eat money"

While communism hasnt worked the ideas of marx,s classless society very much appeals to me.I think capitalism has caused humanity to lose its way as to whats realy important in life.The mindless consumerism and individualism is not good for our health however provable it might be as an economic theory.

TheMeInTeam said:

You can't use facts on his side of this argument. There aren't any that support it so using them would be counter-productive while trying to prop up nonsense. Marxist crap LIVES off theory and persuasion and ignores facts at all freaking costs, much like most people trying to support fundamentally wrong/idiotic statements.

Also, while Kochman may or may not be quoting textbooks, they are vastly superior to documentaries, anecdotal evidence with flagrant bias, biased media sources (and 100% of media sources are biased), etc because said textbooks provide data that is 1) can be reproduced 2) is tested and proven 3) originated from people who put dedicated effort into studying their respective fields.

An econ textbook doesn't just prove these socialist people wrong, it embarrasses them. The reason Nicol and everyone else on this thread arguing that socialism somehow leads to better quality of life while the firms actively HARM it avoid macro and micro economic teachings is because it would show just how painfully, flagrantly wrong they are about how business works.

The most annoying thing I see about arguments against free market/capitalism is for people to pick governments that have been ACTIVELY TRENDING AWAY FROM FREE MARKET...*AND* GETTING WORSE WHILE DOING SO...and using THOSE as an argument against free market . Stop doing that. It makes you look ignorant and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

As for the relevance to the OP, the market can and absolutely would adjust to an oil crisis. The effects would be reasonably devastating, but military would still field advanced equipment, alternative lubricants would be used, and alternative fuels (possibly using current engines with minor/no retrofitting) would come into play albeit at higher costs. The resulting depression would suck pretty badly, but the overblown supposed consequences in the OP speak volumes to the ignorance of the world...

And there *will* be a drop in quality of life in the west, but it won't be the fault of capitalism or free market, but rather our insistence on living beyond our means and becoming increasingly socialist!

Click to expand...

An econ textbook doesn't just prove these socialist people wrong, it embarrasses them. The reason Nicol and everyone else on this thread arguing that socialism somehow leads to better quality of life while the firms actively HARM it avoid macro and micro economic teachings is because it would show just how painfully, flagrantly wrong they are about how business works.

The most annoying thing I see about arguments against free market/capitalism is for people to pick governments that have been ACTIVELY TRENDING AWAY FROM FREE MARKET...*AND* GETTING WORSE WHILE DOING SO...and using THOSE as an argument against free market . Stop doing that. It makes you look ignorant and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the discussion.


Also, while Kochman may or may not be quoting textbooks, they are vastly superior to documentaries, anecdotal evidence with flagrant bias, biased media sources (and 100% of media sources are biased), etc because said textbooks provide data that is 1) can be reproduced 2) is tested and proven 3) originated from people who put dedicated effort into studying their respective fields.

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are you joking? there is absolutely no way that any economic theories were ever proven by scinetific lab conditions.
the very same books should have told you this,

also there is another problem with quoting textbooks. he just has no idea were current mainstream economic research is. for that he would have to read real scientific journals and papers.
so his self confidence in this is fake.

you guys might thing how much you are owning me with your 1st grade textbook stuff and primitive models.
but for me this is really just primitive textbook stuff for undergrad students, guys, thats not the end of economy and truth of world, thats just basics to get you started on some thinking

no real economists takes this stuff seriously anymore, so basically we really have nothing to discuss... you are just telling me basic textbook stuff, and know nothing about current research or theories, or why this stuff is not taken to the letter by more advanced economists

your self confidence in knowing "how bussiness works"
basically you have no idea. you think there are some magic demand and supply and free market, but that is not the case.

it's all about clientelism, contacts, corruption, both in provate and public sector.
you are just not getting any contracts without proper contacts and corruption.
if you donť see this, you are blind and it is you, who has no idea how things work INRL

kochman said:

Why are you guys so upset about working Sundays?
[...]
Personally, I like having the ability to buy things 7 days a week

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And then you say people don't know nothing about you...


You seem to make a point of replying to each and every post, Kochman. So I guess I was careless when I offered some comments to your statements inside spoiler tags (click for link).
Surely you haven't openned the spoiler, thinking there would be some picture inside. Otherwise you'd have replied.

I saw it, just saw it as pointless... not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but if you want to be the internet police, I think you need to apply for that position.

Brian Shanahan said:

What many, the only "experts" that I have seen who have argued that New Deal have been the fantasists in the Austrian and Chicago schools of Economics, you know, the yahoos who gave us the economic policies that got us into the current mess. Yeah, I wouldn't trust that crowd as far as I could throw them either.

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Astonishing display of ignorance. The Chicago school and the Austrian school have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Chicago is actually much closer to Keynesianism. They both base their delusional theory of macro-economics on the same nonsense C + I + G equation. They both believe in the beneficial nature of government printing presses.

Austrians, in contrast, dispute the very existence of macro-economics. To them, all economics is micro. Oh, as for your notion that there are Austrian "yahoos" running the show in Washington, that is simply absurd. For many years, the only Austrian in Washington was Ron Paul, who was treated as a nut and laughed at by both the Keynesians and the Chicagoites. Austrians get a bit more respect these days but still have absolutely no power.

Well actually I'm slightly wrong, there is a strong criticism of FDR from proper experts, and that is that he turned off the New Deal tap too early. They maintain that if he had let the tap run through 1936 and 1937 the US economy would have recovered before the second world war.

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Indeed. There are a whole host of myths that the bureaucrat-worshipers have about the Great Depression and this is certainly one of them. An even better example of the howlers these "experts" come up with is the laughable idea that Hoover was a free marketer kinda guy. He wasn't. He was a Progressive, like Wilson and both Roosevelts. After the crash of 1929, he raised taxes substantially, enacted high tariffs and convinced business people to keep wages up. Naturally the result was massive increases in unemployment and a huge crash in the economy. In 1932 Roosevelt campaigned on a return to free market policies and promptly did the complete opposite, following up Hoover's lunacies with even more of the same. The Depression didn't end until the huge drop in government spending after WWII.

It's already been pointed out you but... if Hoover had done the same thing in 1929 that Harding did in 1921, there never would have been a Great Depression. In fact, Hoover would have won in 1932 and maybe Hitler wouldn't have the following year. Harding was the best president the US had since the great Grover Cleveland. Naturally they are both forgotten. In the minds of the state hagiographers, a great president is one who makes massive increases in government control of the peoples' lives and/or kills millions of people. Roosevelt scores on both counts.

But then it is always a judgement call to say when the early signs of recovery are indicating an economy strong enough to stand on it's own two feet. FDR and his cabinet got it wrong and called too early.

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Meddlers making "judgement calls" about the lives of millions of other people are the whole the problem. It's evil and, as you point out, it doesn't even work.

Oh, and on that last sentence wake up to reality and stop parroting the propoganda sold to you by McCarthy and his vile ilk.

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McCarthy? WTH does he have to do with this? Gone off the deep end, have we?

What has been the period of the strongest growth in the world, where societies have become the most prosperous and equal both at the same time and when people have been most secure in their lives? Yes, it was the post war period up to the '70's where all the major western countries either adopted socialism or many of it's best practices, including many Republican administrations. If that does not show an ability to plan then I don't know what does.

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Fascinating that you should bring this up because the truth of the matter is the exact opposite. The great success stories of the postwar period were Japan, West Germany and the United States - precisely those countries which slashed the state and let the free market reign. In contrast Britain, which implemented a massive expansion of the welfare system, went into a profound decline which lasted for decades. The success stories in the Third World were also places which adopted free enterprise. In 1950, half the inhabitants of Hong Kong were destitute refugees from the evil socialist "experiment" that started on the mainland. Through dint of hard work, free enterprise and free trade, within two generations Hong Kong had become one of the richest places on earth. There are other examples.

You know, it's really annoying that I have to repeatedly explain their own history to Americans who believe that FDR was the devil here.

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It's even more annoying to read fantasy histories invented by bureaucrat-worshipers who know so little about what they are talking about that they conflate Austrian and Chicago economists. As Murray Rothbard said "It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance."

Well thats what happens when you privatise every public service and good, you get horsehockey goods and services.

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LOL. What are these privatised services you fabulate? It's quite the opposite. For ten years, the American government has been expanding relentessly - including enacting atrocities like Sarbanes-Oxley and Dodd-Frank which impose huge burdens on the economy.

So... how are we going to implement these great ideas in Civ? ;-)