strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I wonder what would happen if "we" didnt put any Civic or religion in the favorite categories? Or one but not the other vice versa.
C2C - Religions discussions and ideas
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
I wonder what would happen if "we" didnt put any Civic or religion in the favorite categories? Or one but not the other vice versa.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Sounds like there would be no change from the current situation.
We need to look deeper at the religion implementation or AI since the way the religions are on C2C tech tree most nations will have one of the ancient religions spread to all their cities long before their favorite religion comes along so they will not bother to convert.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
thats what i am trying to say, really, if "we" didnt put any religions/civics in the favorite area of the LH, would it really matter? If not, then what? If so, then like you said we need a better way to implement founding of religions through the tech tree? or not?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I don't think it is the founding of religions that is the problem. It is the fact that in the game as it stands from the AI player perspective we should just get rid of all the religions after the first four or five because they have no game affect.
Civics are a totally different issue.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
HUH? Are you kidding, i hope. . . So if i go for Shamanism (which i never do), then Tengrii, then Christianity, it does no good to do so??
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I did not realize you were an AI.
ahahaha dang . . . you catch me with words all the time, you know what i meant, if the AI goes for the above in that way then.
For JosEPh_II, i got Tengrii (and no other religion) and Sed Life withOUT beeling .. . hows that!!!
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Then Shaman or Tengri will have spread to all their cities and they will have built the various buildings before they get to Christianity which, even if they found it and it is their favorite religion, they will ignore because of the investment thy have put into the earlier religions. Not converting to a religion as soon as you can will hamper your growth so Shamanism would probably have been their state religion for thousands of years. Why change to the favorite?
hotrodlincoln
Upasaka
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 248
Another problem with Tengriism is that it gets missionaries far too early. When you found the religion you get a free missionary, and you can build missionaries from the Tengri equivalent of the temple, which kind of steals Buddhism's thunder as being the earliest religion to get missionaries. Tengriism shouldn't get missionaries any earlier than other religions. It wasn't a particularly expansive or proselytizing religion in real life, after all.
In fact, Tengriism is way too overpowered for how early in the game it comes. If we want to avoid making any changes to it, then it would be more balanced to move Tengriism to Horse Archery. Right now, Tengriism is one of the most powerful religions IMHO. Unless I am being a peacemonger or playing a roleplaying game, I almost always found Tengriism. It's just too powerful to ignore.
In fact, Tengriism is way too overpowered for how early in the game it comes. If we want to avoid making any changes to it, then it would be more balanced to move Tengriism to Horse Archery. Right now, Tengriism is one of the most powerful religions IMHO. Unless I am being a peacemonger or playing a roleplaying game, I almost always found Tengriism. It's just too powerful to ignore.
DRJ
Hedonist
let's see... hmmm... a few difficulty levels too low?!
On the contrary: when playing deity minor start GEM as Japan I (score 76, 6 cities now) just got Chiefdom while the techleader (score 290, 12 cities) invents Meditation... how's that?^^
So: yeah, AI can really be a challenge... ain't it fun trying to catch this highflying bird?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
let's see... hmmm... a few difficulty levels too low?!
So: yeah, AI can really be a challenge... ain't it fun trying to catch this highflying bird?
ahaha, i have it on Flex Diff, so didnt look, but i went a different route through the tech tree, and just waited around tell some of the religions were just snatched up then proceeded going in yet another direction avoiding all other religions though.
Then once i got Tengrii, i went back and Started the rest of the tech for Sed Life.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Shamanism, Druidism and Ngai all get to build missionaries before Tengri does.
Tengri, Mesopotamian and Sikh do not have monastery buildings so they get to build missionaries from their temples.We used to have limits on the number of missionaries you could have at one time. The less proselytizing ones had fewer missionaries available. I liked this but the push was for no limits. Which reminds me I was going to see if I could make an "option" for missionary limits.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I dont understand why not a limit on missionaries, back in the day, there were few and very little
Only HUGE cities had a lot of prophets/advisors etc. Who do you think killed Julius Caesar?
hotrodlincoln
Upasaka
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 248
Why not give those religions a monastery equivalent, and make them wait until meditation to spread to 80% of the world? This is probably another reason we're seeing so many AIs with Tengriism and Shamanism. I honestly didn't even know that Druidic Traditions, Shamanism, and Ngeiism also got missionaries because i've avoided founding them in my games.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
They don't get free missionaries. However their monastery building can be built as soon as they have a temple.
Moving the building on monasteries to meditation will have no effect on the later religions it will just mean that a few more religions will have been spread to 80% of the world. It will also severly affect the viability of the early religions.
The model of non-missionary spread is not the problem. The problem is that the older religions get to spread for many many years before the later religions come along, so a lot of investment will have been put into those religions. Switching to a later religion will require a great deal of investment. You (or the AI) will need to spread the new religion every where and then build the buildings.
Edit An idea I will look into. When you found a religion you get a number of missionaries. When your favorite religion spreads to your lands you get a number of missionaries. IE double number if you found your favorite religion. The number of free missionaries will depend on the era and how proselytizing the religion was at the start of the religion. Re introduce limits. make all of this an option.
details to follow.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Say WHAT!!!????
:shakehead: I knew you could do it!
Which in turn skewed your perception and which allowed you post an erroneous statement. I'm not trying to pick on you but this kind of thing happens Very often in a lot of these discussions. Which in turn gives a false impression of the games mechanics being discussed. I just hope this doesn't open another can of worms regarding Religions and their founding/spread. My personal opinion is that the current system works rather well. And once the placement in the techtree issue gets addressed most of these "arguments" will become unnecessary.
Could someone decipher this please?
What are you trying to say DRJ?JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
OK, what I am going to do is make a small modmod for C2C for some of the religion changes so that you can try it out if you want to. If enough people like it and feel it solves some of the problems I will merge it back in to C2C.
Hopefully this will go someway towards reducing the cost of converting to your favorite religion especially for the AI.
- All religions will get a number of free missionaries when they are founded. This may go above the limit number.
- Prehistoric will get 1 missionary
- Ancient era will get 2
- Classic era will get 3 and so on.
- When your favorite religion spreads to your capital via The_J's "Real Favorite Religion" you will get the same number of missionaries as if you had founded the religion yourself.
- Limits on the number of missionaries you have will be reintroduced.
- non proselytizing religions will have a maximum of 3
- proselytizing will have a maximum of 5
- zealous proselytizing will have a maximum of 7 (IE Christian, Mormon and Islam)
Hopefully this will go someway towards reducing the cost of converting to your favorite religion especially for the AI.
hotrodlincoln
Upasaka
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 248
JosEPh_II said:
Er...the fact that those early religions can build missionaries so early just proves my point even more. I thought the rapid spread was just a problem with Tengrii, but it's actually a problem with all the early religions. I don't really see why Shamanism should get access to missionaries right off the bat when Hinduism, or Asatru, have to wait until researching Meditation and building a monastery. Ancient religions should be superior to prehistoric religions, after all.
I rather like that idea, Dancing Hoskuld. Will that modmod be released as part of the SVN or as a standalone? I ask because I have had problems getting the SVN working.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
It will be a stand alone version you will need to download and install on top of C2C. It will be completely separate to the SVN. Unless it works well, then it will be added into the main mod. If it fails it will be dropped.
Il Principe
Prince
I like the limit as well, might not be a big change ,but at least something. And btw: I have no problem with half the world being shamans or tengriis in my current game. I managed to convince quite a few Ai nations to join me with Islam.
