A nice trick do do, because all the Great Prophets you buy are of your religion, is to buy it in a city that already has a different religion and convert it the very next turn. Also to protect your religion if you are surrounded by big religions (lots of cities that give you pressure) messiah is probably the best enhancer pick, even though itinerant preachers and religious texts may be tempting.
Any way to prevent an opponent from squashing my religion?
- Thread starter darkace77450
- Start date
While this alternative is kind of defeatist, I find it to be pretty useful at deity level, since there it's nearly impossible to maintain your religion in your own cities let alone spread it outside the borders even with the most incredible of faith starts (Spain on desert near Sinai and Uluru.)
I often exercise what I've termed a "disposable religion." The religion centers around religious picks that apply predominantly to the capital and have more dramatic effects early game. The default is :
pantheon: God-King
Founder: Initiation rights
Follower 1: Religious community
Follower 2: Religious Art
Enhancer: Reliquary
Breaking them down individually, God-King and Initiation rights have pretty dramatic effects early but significantly less of an impact later on. The +1 bonus to each of the five categories in God-King can be a 10%-25% when you're getting your pantheon (turn 20 or so). For example, +1 BPT when your total BPT is 8 is a 12.5% boost, which is noticeable in turn times. Initiation rights essentially gives 200 gold per missionary, meaning that two missionaries gets you most of the way towards your 3rd or 4th settler (500g.) Later on, God-King has nearly no impact on any of the 5 categories as your base values for each of them is in the hundreds or thousands, and Initiation rights means that it's giving you the same amount of gold that you're making every turn, or less.
Religious community is one of the strongest follower beliefs in the game, powerful enough that it can be hazardous if your religion spreads to a warmongerer. While it'd be nice to have this in all your cities, it isn't that realistic on deity, plus your cities will enjoy it for a short time before they overthrow your religion.
Religious Art, like God-King, applies to only your capital and therefore has no benefit of being other cities, whether they're yours, CSs, or AIs. The bonus seems small, but when you factor in all the multipliers, it can make a difference. And even the smallest tourism bonus makes a big difference on deity.
Reliquary isn't that great, but at least you're getting something and, again, the bonus is the same whether the religion is only in your capital or in every city in the world.
From here there's two options: 1,) buy missionaries when they're cheap and spread the religion to your own cities and a few CS quests to get a short-term production bonus in the secondary cities, but more importantly to get the gold for a settler and a few alliances as well, or 2.) Found, enhance, then done. You get some decent bonuses form your own religion in your capital, and your secondary cities can get the pantheon and both follower bonuses from whatever religion spreads there.
Either way, get an inquisitor in your capital only so that 1.) you have your religious bonuses in the capital all game but more importantly 2.) you can still get the +50% tourism bonus in the holy city (capital) if you can get your religion passed.
I often exercise what I've termed a "disposable religion." The religion centers around religious picks that apply predominantly to the capital and have more dramatic effects early game. The default is :
pantheon: God-King
Founder: Initiation rights
Follower 1: Religious community
Follower 2: Religious Art
Enhancer: Reliquary
Breaking them down individually, God-King and Initiation rights have pretty dramatic effects early but significantly less of an impact later on. The +1 bonus to each of the five categories in God-King can be a 10%-25% when you're getting your pantheon (turn 20 or so). For example, +1 BPT when your total BPT is 8 is a 12.5% boost, which is noticeable in turn times. Initiation rights essentially gives 200 gold per missionary, meaning that two missionaries gets you most of the way towards your 3rd or 4th settler (500g.) Later on, God-King has nearly no impact on any of the 5 categories as your base values for each of them is in the hundreds or thousands, and Initiation rights means that it's giving you the same amount of gold that you're making every turn, or less.
Religious community is one of the strongest follower beliefs in the game, powerful enough that it can be hazardous if your religion spreads to a warmongerer. While it'd be nice to have this in all your cities, it isn't that realistic on deity, plus your cities will enjoy it for a short time before they overthrow your religion.
Religious Art, like God-King, applies to only your capital and therefore has no benefit of being other cities, whether they're yours, CSs, or AIs. The bonus seems small, but when you factor in all the multipliers, it can make a difference. And even the smallest tourism bonus makes a big difference on deity.
Reliquary isn't that great, but at least you're getting something and, again, the bonus is the same whether the religion is only in your capital or in every city in the world.
From here there's two options: 1,) buy missionaries when they're cheap and spread the religion to your own cities and a few CS quests to get a short-term production bonus in the secondary cities, but more importantly to get the gold for a settler and a few alliances as well, or 2.) Found, enhance, then done. You get some decent bonuses form your own religion in your capital, and your secondary cities can get the pantheon and both follower bonuses from whatever religion spreads there.
Either way, get an inquisitor in your capital only so that 1.) you have your religious bonuses in the capital all game but more importantly 2.) you can still get the +50% tourism bonus in the holy city (capital) if you can get your religion passed.
Forgot something:
alternatively for lower levels, you could substitute religious buildings for the two follower beliefs, since once you build them they are there all game regardless of religion. So you could pick mosques and pagodas, put them in all your cities which will generate 3happiness, 4culture and 5faith in each city then have a religion with religious centers and choral music hit the city, giving a bonus (with a temple) of 5happiness, 6culture and 5 faith... per city.
alternatively for lower levels, you could substitute religious buildings for the two follower beliefs, since once you build them they are there all game regardless of religion. So you could pick mosques and pagodas, put them in all your cities which will generate 3happiness, 4culture and 5faith in each city then have a religion with religious centers and choral music hit the city, giving a bonus (with a temple) of 5happiness, 6culture and 5 faith... per city.
Very interesting strategy! I never thought of Initiation Rights like that, it is definitely better than Tithe at that point, but I think spending the money from it on a settler is not a good idea. Your capital will produce the settler pretty fast, and you may want to rush a building in one of your slower expos.
It seems like a solid combination. God King is a strong pantheon, but light on faith generation. So if you don't found, no big loss. I like how the picks progressively build on that theme, since early small buffs are so valuable and late small buffs are not!
For a typical tight four-city set up where all cities are within 10 hexes of each other, it is very easy to get and maintain your religion in your own cities. Use 3rd GPr to spread your religion in your core. Only run external trade routes from your Holy City with Grand Temple (and EIC prolly). Keeping your religion at that point should take no further effort, even at Deity.
Religious pressure from GT own its own will keep your Holy City following your religion, even with three cities around it. But inquisitors have their uses, so I often buy one or two while they are cheap.
Yeah, the way I view it is I spent 40 hammers (standard speed) to get a shrine which is all I did to get the pantheon. Since God-King gives one hammer per turn, it's paying for itself the first 40 turns and showing returns on investment for every turn after that. And the culture, faith, beakers, and gold are all just profit.
The problem has little to do with the ability to spread to your own cities or maintaining religious pressure. The problem is having 2-3 Great Prophets inside your borders per civilization that has a religion (so maybe 6 or more prophets in your border at a time.) Having an inquistor in a city prevents the prophet from flipping it, so having 1 inquisitor in every city would prevent any of them from being flipped. And in the deity-desert-folklore-mega-faith-generation game, that's fine and I'd recommend that as opposed to my disposable religion strategy. But in the case when there aren't any good faith pantheons left or none that are relative to your starting location (which is half the reason I'd be picking God-king to begin with), prophets are lingering in my terrain before 1 inquisitor/city is an option. And I know that having a bunch of prophets in your borders is a reason to consider DoW and capturing Holy Sites, but on Deity there are a lot of considerations regarding when to declare war including feasibility of defense, perceived ability to advance and take cities, and diplomatic impacts. Declaring war on deity to protect religious purity and capture a few holy sites is like buying a Maserati because you like the cupholders; sure it's a great cupholder but you just can't afford it.
KrikkitTwo
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Great Temple does not help religion In the holy city... it only helps religion coming From the holy city. (and it helps whatever religion is dominant, if your holy city is converted it will spread that other religion at +100%)
If you have 5 cities of the invading religion in range, your Holy City will Not recover on its own, you will need a Prophet or Underground Sect to recover your religion then.
[also this effect lasts even if the grand Temple is destroyed, I've had captured enemy Holy cities sending out +100% religious pressure]
Hopefully Browd will jump in and clarify this, but I don't think the above is correct.
As I understand the Mechanics, a Holy City always generates 9 pressure for its own faith, even if it has been converted.
Two nearby cities of the same foreign faith would be 12 pressure, so that alone might be enough to prevent the original religion from reasserting itself. In this example, the Holy City following a foreign religion would also exert 6 pressure on each of the two neighbors. So I think a converted Holy City is an example of a city generating extra religious pressure, 15 total, whereas a Holy City is normally only 9.
Grand Temple generates extra faith, but not extra religious pressure. It generates that faith regardless of the religion of the city.
Any GPr you faith purchase will be of your religion. So even if your Holy City would never recover on its own, recovering your religion in your Holy City and three nearby cities is trivially easy.
Right, because significant religious pressure comes from every Holy City. Grand Temple is extra faith, not extra pressure.
Yes, that is a problem, but only a small problem. You would not want to be trying to convert your own cities back while that is going own. Fortunately, the GPr spam will not go on indefinitely. But you could prolong this unpleasant phase of the game...
I am still not seeing the problem! Let the AI convert your cities, buying foreign faith buildings as you can. The GPr will be burning themselves out, especially if two civs are fighting over your cities. Staffing all your cities with inquisitors is actually counterproductive because then the GPr just mill around your territory and might never go away. On the other hand, if the foreign GPr keep converting the same city over and over, and that city already has the foreign faith buildings while others do not, then investing in a inquisitor might be helpful to spread out the foreign interest to be of better utility to the player.
Even on Deity I think a single GPr that can be planted is worth DOWing over (but not breaking a DoF over). The problem is that, until you capture it, you cannot tell a one-use GPr from a virgin one.
The grand temple also doubles the religious pressure emanating from the holy city. It does not specify for what religion, so it is expected that if a holy city is flipped it will double the religious pressure for the new religion. Realistically this does not happen by passive conversion, and an opponent GPr may need 2 uses to flip the city entirely, meaning you can easily avoid it by either having an inquisitor or using 2-3 units as blockers.
Also each holy city has an internal pressure (I think it's 30) so in the right conditions it will eventually flip itself back to it's original religion, but as KrikkitTwo has said if there are a lot of cities that pressure the holy city with a foreign religion it will never happen (some followers will spawn but they will not be enough to flip the city entirely).
Letting other religions in your cities, in order to buy other religious buildings, and then attempting to flip them back eventually is a dangerous game, you may end up losing a Great Person later on because of this.
Also each holy city has an internal pressure (I think it's 30) so in the right conditions it will eventually flip itself back to it's original religion, but as KrikkitTwo has said if there are a lot of cities that pressure the holy city with a foreign religion it will never happen (some followers will spawn but they will not be enough to flip the city entirely).
Letting other religions in your cities, in order to buy other religious buildings, and then attempting to flip them back eventually is a dangerous game, you may end up losing a Great Person later on because of this.
First, standard pressure is 6 per city, regardless of whether it is a Holy City or not. Not sure where you are getting 9 pressure from a Holy City (perhaps remembering base pressure on Quick speed, which is 9 per city?).
Second, Grand Temple only doubles the pressure that the holy city would otherwise be "broadcasting" to other cities. So, if your holy city has been temporarily "zapped" by another civ's Great Prophet (so it is now, dismayingly (but hopefully only temporarily), majority Buddhist instead of your beloved Shinto (or whatever)), it will "broadcast" 12 Buddhist pressure, not 6 Buddhist pressure and 6 Shinto pressure. When the city eventually flips back to Shinto, it will broadcast 12 Shinto pressure to surrounding cities.
Third, do not confuse internal Holy City pressure with the external pressure that a Holy City broadcasts. If you mouse-hover over the banner for a Holy City that has at least 1 follower of its "native" religion, the sum of the pressure numbers you see for that religion are the sum of Holy City internal pressure (30) plus 6 pressure from each other city of that religion pressuring the Holy City. If there are no other nearby cities exerting pressure (i.e., your religion is only majority in your Holy City), all you will see is 30 internal pressure. Grand Temple does not double Holy City internal pressure (near as I can tell), so 30 internal pressure is what you get. Internal pressure is what will, if the numbers line up right, cause your Holy City to gradually reconvert to its "native" religion without the need for a Great Prophet or Inquisitor. (Of course, internal pressure can be overwhelmed, if there is enough external pressure for another religion from other cities to counter the internal pressure.)
reddishrecue
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I think a religion with a grand temple would contribute more than enough faith to its religion that will make opponents have trouble squashing that civilization's religion. With piety, a religion wont be squashed easily and can get a majority of cities converted in a map as a world religion. Unique abilities in faith that civilizations have can also help keep a religion operational.
Thanks Browd for clearing that up. I am not sure why I thought the internal Holy City pressure was 9 and not 30. 30! That is crazy strong! And it explains how a religion in a Holy City is so prone to reassert itself.
As compared to other GP, GPr cost is relatively low, and a terrific value for what you can do with it. I suppose if you are facing GPr spam only after using up your 3rd, 4th, and 5th GPr -- then yes, a 6th GPr is going to be at the expense of another GP.
In the face of GPr spam, you can either fight it off or wait it out. I would argue that attempting to fight it off is the risker approach.
As compared to other GP, GPr cost is relatively low, and a terrific value for what you can do with it. I suppose if you are facing GPr spam only after using up your 3rd, 4th, and 5th GPr -- then yes, a 6th GPr is going to be at the expense of another GP.
Well, that is 3 units per GPr. If blocking can be done with just three units, you are not facing "spam" as I understand the OP question to be about. And the foreign religion might not have any buildings associated with it. Yes, a single GPr stalking your lands should probably be blocked and not embraced. Best situation is when you can steer them towards a barb. If you can steer them enough, they will eventually head off elsewhere.
reddishrecue
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Water tiles are also a good way that rival Gprs could get in. So if your city is next to water and you dont have optics, make sure to have at least a ship on the adjacent ocean tile because the Gpr may have optics, embark next to the city and then convert.
Yep I meant per GPr. But you usually are not facing more than 2/3 at a time, and if you catch one on rough terrain you can block it with two units. I usually block GPr with my Great People that are just laying around like great scientists or writers that I want to keep for late game bulbs. They change targets after 2-3 turns of dancing around.
Lelouch Vi
Chieftain
Keep Inquisitors in hand and warn the Civilization to stop. If that fails, declare war on them, conquer them, and if they have a Great Prophet, capture him and have him flayed alive in the former capital.
reddishrecue
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Inquisitors couldbe a good faith investment. Large cities converted with many citizens in rival religion easily recover their true religion with inquisitors.
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